A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

So let us examine that analysis. I used to play a large blob of guardsmen with Uriel. Of course he had FNP and his other goodies then. Now, the blob has changed. But the tactic is the same. We are pushing forward away from our fire base to press the opponent back. Our vendettas will come in when needed (officer of the fleet), our quad autocannon and IG autocannons will pressure, our exorcists will fire away, our two immos and chimera will advance along the flanks. The blob does not work in a vacuum. Now the preferred enemy on bolter sisters with plasma and with flamers is not shabby at all. Certainly they can focus all their dakka on the squad (mind you I will targeting their major threats meanwhile with my multilaser, multimeltas, flamers, and fire base. Once the blob hits mid table I should have some of his troops on the ground as available targets unless he playing jump packs and bikes. Even then he will not have a lot of space.

Now it is about finding alternative approaches to what is normally seen. I'm sure they are many other ways to play IG/SoB. This is one that has worked for me in the past, al-be-it with a different configuration, that I'm pretty sure can cause problems for a lot of lists. Now as mentioned it might not be your style. But the large number of special rules that stack and stack some more are ridonculous. This is not to say that I think SoB will be common or a force on the tournament scene. We are not about that.  I'm simply pointing out some combinations that would be fun to tinker with and could win some games. I expect that the lists that will be seen will be pure immo spam with three exorcists. You can easily fit 7-8 into a list now.

So I have gone through the forgeworld updates and one idea has really stuck with me to the point where I can't decide if I want IH main or Red Scorpians as my main chapter tactics.

Red Scorpians gives the following buffs and drawbacks:
Purity Above All: Any Tactical squad Sergeant or Veteran
Sergeant with Chapter Tactics (Red Scorpions) may be made
a member of the Chapter’s Apothecarion and upgraded to
carry a Narthecium for no additional points cost (see page 125
of Codex: Space Marines). This does not otherwise alter their
wargear, additional options or profile, and should always be
appropriately represented on the model.

Fortitude and Contempt: Models with Chapter Tactics
(Red Scorpions) may re-roll all failed Pinning tests, but cannot
voluntarily Go to Ground and cannot be equipped with camo
cloaks.

So you're probably thinking: Cool 5+ FNP tactical marines...but not camo cloaks or go to ground is meh. To me I can live with these drawbacks and reroll pinning tests could be useful at times. The idea of FNP tacticals (which is better than the IH's FNP though limited in scope) is very appealing to me as I generally rely on my tacts to get the job done in the end. Ultimately this is a game of troops and firepower. The IH seems to be great but I worry that needing all those 6's is gonna hurt in the end. I shouldn't rely on them so heavily as I was before. Red scorpians offers an interesting solution...a more reliable fnp but at reduced scope to the army. It is certainly a big trade-off.

The thing that really cemented RS into my mind though was access to a special character...another super librarian: Magister Sevrin Loth. He is a beast much like Tiggy. He can literally CHOOSE his powers as long as they are all from the same list and from telepathy, telekinesis, or biomancy. All which can offer interesting options given that you can choose 3 powers from one of them. Not only this but by expending one warp charge he gets a freaking 2+ invuln until your next turn...you can do this every turn...amazing.

So what I want to do is to create some ganky deathstar unit using Tiggy and Loth and just go to town. I will update this post in a little while with a list and my ideas on how to best use this potential combination that I may just use for my marines.

egorey wrote:

Celestine beefs a 20 sister squad like no ones business and her re-rolling 2's is arguably better than Corbulo.

She only gets a 2+ re-rollable armour save in close combat though. Most 700 point death stars are practically impervious to shooting. T3 3+ saves (that are not re-roll able) does not strike me as resilient enough. 10 bolters shots on average kill 1.48 sisters, 12 fire warriors firing rapid fire will kill 3.33, with an ethereal that's 5, 6 venoms kills 8, per shooting phase, a squad of three broadsides kills 5.

And that's before we even consider AP1-3 pie plates, a 5++ is going to kill 55% of every group of sisters it touches.

The squad is slow, not particularly resilient to shooting and needs to get into combat to be effective, can't go to ground because it's fearless, and it's advanced can be hampered by chaff units and blockers.

If the unit could get a 3+ re-rollable armour save in the shooting phase, then I would see the point, but it can't.

Ok so here is my first shot at an 1850pt marine list that utilzes all the tough troops and a Cent. Dev. deathstar.

Red Scorpians Tactics
Magister Loth
10 man Tactical Squad (HB, flamer) in rhino
10 man Tactical Squad (HB, flamer) in rhino
10 man Tactical Squad (plasma gun, plasma cannon) in Razorback (HB)
10 man Tactical Squad (plasma gun, plasma cannon) in Razorback (lascannon)
3 scout bikes (2 astartes grenade launchers, cluster mines, LOCATOR BEACON)
Predator (autocannon, HBs)
Thunderfire Cannon


"Allies" Ultramarines Tactics
Tiggy
5 scouts (bp/ccw) in a Land Speeder Storm (HB)
3 Cent. Dev. (Grav cannons, hurricane bolters, omniscope)


So here is the idea, put the librarians with the Cent. Devs. and you can garuntee gate of infinity and hopefully get a bunch of upgrades on the cents to give them an invuln, rerolls, etc. Essentially they are tanks and can teleport around to get closer to the enemy to smite thy enemy. I've decided to try out scout bikes to help the teleport process turn 1 by infiltrating the bikes a little forward so I can pop the guys forward to into 24" range to enact my wrath as quickly as possible.

Now the scouts in the LS storm will hopefully be held in reserve as long as I can manage it with Tiggy so they come in late game to objective grab. The thunderfire is well...a thunderfire it supports my pushing units with some long range support. The predator does the same thing, it provides the ability to lay down to some heavier fire power against light vehicles and medium infantry while being mobile. That leaves me with 40 marines...40 marines with 5+ FNP...pretty sweet. The plasma cannons will obviously break off and hold back to provide fire support and hold base objectives. The guys in rhinos will most likely combat squad though can be in the same transport which is sweet. The four tanks push forward with my troops taking objectives and dealing death.

Thoughts? I'm not sure on the predator and scout bikes to be honest. I was thinking of 2 predators originally but then I decided why not guarantee a little safety with the gate of infinity if I choose to use that power in a game.

Nice list - . It is a list that can bait an opponent into attacking and then begin focusing it's forces on one thing at a time to kill it. So like I've said before, bait, feign disorder and crush. Other than a few personal preferences it seems quite capable ... gating around and throwing out vortex with Seth should be fun and Tiggy has lots of options. I would expect this to be tough.

On another note I updated the SoB/IG list slightly - have to respect the tactical prodigy.

So i took a look at expanding the list i gave to 2k points. the move is quite simple, drop the predator and add a sternguad vet squad under the ultramarines chunk for those tactics and throw them in a droppod with a locator beacon. Bam i have another utility unit while adding a locator beacon to the map that i could jump to.

Furthering our discussions on unusual builds, we never really examined Necrons. So let us look ay a list designed by Jancoren:

HQ: Nemesor Zhandrek 185
Elites: 5 Destrukteks 175
Elites 2x 16 Flayed Ones 416 (scouting or outflanking)
Troops: 6x 5 Warriors 400
Transport: Nightscythe 100 (in reserve with one warrior squad)
Fast Attack: 2x 8 Scarabs 240
Heavy Support: 3 Canoptek Spyders, 1 TL Particle Beamer 175
Heavy Support: 3 Canoptek Spyders, 1 Gloom Prism 165
(1850)

I love this list. You will either scout or outflank those Flayed Ones dependingh on whether or not you get first turn. They will effectively pincer in the flanks and push your opponent back. You cannot simply ignore them. In the mean time your ScaAbs ( great AT/AI) will push forward quickly with their movement followed by the Spyders replenishing their numbers. What do you target? Your warriors are there to give your Destrukteks a home so they can fire those lances every turn. And Zhandrek will buff any squad that needs it. He can make melee monsters or AT killers out of anything. One squad of Warriors stays in reserve with the Scythe flying on and off if necessary to ensure linebreaker or objective grabbing late. Simple. Effective. Unexpected.

It is these types of lists that keep me playing 40k. Lists that just don't follow the current trends at all but can still succeed with a good general and solid play.

I like it. How do the flayed ones get around their biggest weakness not being fearless and being vulnerable to sweeping advance? What buffs can Nemesor Zhandrek give out? (my necron knowledge is lacking)

Counter Tactics;
Let's you take away some special rules from an opponent's unit in line of sight.
Those rules include; Counter Attack, Furious Charge, Hit and Run, Night Vision, Stealth and Tank Hunters.

Adaptive Tactics;
This rule is what makes him good. It allows you to give one of the above rules to any Necron unit in your army.So when you know you're gonna get charged but can't charge yourself, give Counter Attack.

When you're gonna charge give that unit Furious Charge to let them kill more,
(A unit of Scarabs can suddenly wound T6, wounds T4 on a 4+ and generally kills more)

When your unit is in combat a give them Hit and Run to try to escape from combat if you need to. and shoot them down next turn.


If Night Fight is on, give your destrukteks nightvision or tank hunters.

Let's really look at Flayed Ones

Flayed Ones are actually really decent, and a very interesting alternative to the other melee options, but they need to be taken in large numbers to be able to do this - much larger numbers than a necron player (or any player that doesn't play Orks/Nids) may be used to.A large squad of Flayed Ones is very hard to put down, particularly with their RP, so large squads of them are very, very nice for tying up larger hordes or taking down smaller squads. Combine this with Infiltration or DS or outflank, I can see them being very deadly indeed.

I see many flawed perceptions regarding them. Kommandos, Mandrakes, Flayed Ones, even Genstralers to some extent...really most CC based infiltrators are poorly rated by most, and I think it speaks more to peoples unfamiliarity with the optimal use of the mechanic. i have shown that Mandrakes can work already. Deployment is the most important aspect of the game, and a unit with flexible deployment (and there is no unit with more flexible deployment then Flayed Ones) are a huge tool in your tool box if you know how to swing it.

Yes, not being fearless is irritating but they are cheap for what they bring. Do not forget they are LD10 and have  a 4+ save. They have more than enough assaults in a large squad and furious charge just adds to their effectiveness. I don't really care if they take something down to be honest. This is not intuitive when considered on paper but comes immediately apparent when fielded properly is in a game when 2/3rds are objective based, and almost every army has a glass cannon of some sort that they intend to protect, there is always a golden opportunity on the field of battle that if you could just get the right unit in their at the right time you can considerably increase your chances of victory. In addition to objectives, there are a slew of opponents, entrenched heavy weapon squads, walkers and dreads, and the like, who flayed ones can completely eliminate their firepower just but touching them. Look, point for point, they can dance reasonably with many all stars like TH/SS Termies, but can be an absolute nightmare for a unit of long fangs or a frustrating headache for a Riptide or WK who are statistically unlikely to muster up enough wounds to end combat very quickly even if the FOs are just tinging off their ankles. There's always great tactical flexibility in a unit like flayed ones, particularly augmented by and HQ like Zhandrek.

Three attacks on a 13 pt model with these benefits is not bad at all if used right. Point for point they are amongst the most resilient targets in the game. For about a 13% reduced cost of a Space Marine you get a superior resiliency range to every weapon in every situation in the game except AP 4 weapons when not in cover. We are talking 13pt T4 4+ RP wounds which are ridiuclously cheap in this game, up there with wracks with a kicker of not having to depend on cover and RP working against a much wider range of weaponry then FnP.

The point is, you WANT your opponent shooting at your Flayed Ones, I mean obviously you would prefer them  in CC, but the alternative is tactically sufficient. Point for point they will eat bullets more efficiently then Wraiths, or Scarabs (against most weaponry, particulary the ones people use to wipe Scarabs off the planet), and fire power dedicated to them is not being dedicated to your already frustrating to kill bog standard troops.

----------

Now I should also elaborate on Scarab swarms and Destruteks. Scarabs have lost their luster in most lists as the default fast attack choice is Wraiths followed by H. Destroyers. Of course, this is predicated on your list relying on gauss as your primary AT. The list presented has no such crutch to fall back on. It does have supplementary AT in Destruteks and Warriors but we will get to that a bit further on. Scarabs are beasts. They are quick enough to support your Flayed Ones. So they are also prime targets for Zhandrek abilities. They are equally at ease going after AI or AT but avoid templates and flamers. Send in the Flayed Ones first, hug cover when possible. The Spyders will replenish their numbers as they advance behind. Really a smart opponent will not want three Spyders in his face. Does he want to expend his dakka on Scarabs or Flayed Ones?

Five Destrukteks will do some damage but five lances are not enough to fill all your AT needs.  They are the bread and butter for Necron anti-mech shooting. S8 solves an awful lot of transport problems. If needs be, you can shoot some Meq or Teq – AP 2 is quite nice, but it is not their primary role.

So we put them in a units of warriors and blow vehicles up. The Warriors bit is important: DO NOT mix Tesla and anti-tank. Gauss takes all comers and vehicles. So if you’re planning on putting your  Desttek in a unit of Immortals, make them Gauss. Or just put him with warriors, because more shots equals better results when it comes to gauss against tanks.

On a side note, I would never put them in a Night Scythe. They simply will not get used there so my Night Scythe squad has no Cryptek. It's function is to grab objectives and/or linebreak.

So now look at the list again ... Desrrukteqs and Warriors ... Primary AT
Scarabs ... Primary AT Secondary AI
Spyders ... Both AI/AT
Flayed Ones ... distraction and tar pit Primary AI

Does the list make more sense now? So the list is well balanced and quite flexible.

So today I have a game against my friend. I am going back to my DelDar list though one I technically haven't tried yet...gonna have to use proxies because I've been lazy lately. Here's my list since it has been a while since I have said it.

DE Primary Detachment
Archon (VB, huskblade, shadowfield)
Haemie (liquifier, VB)

Grots (4 of them, liquifier) in a boat

2x 10 warriors (SC)
2x 5 wyches (HWG)
5 wracks (acothyst for the ld, liquifier) in a venom (2x SC)

2x Talos (SC,liquifier)

Eldar Allies
Spiritseer
Wraithguard (D-sythes!) in a wave serpent (holofields)
Wraithknight (standard loadout)

Not sure what I will be playing, but this list gives me a little of everything. More than likely I'll end up playing against marines of some sort. The only thing I'm worried about is my lack of AA but tis the love of playing DE haha.

So I ended up playing against Tau...my first time playing against them and damn I hate them haha. I lost and due to a bunch of things of my own doing and otherwise. The game was kill points (first thing that hurt) and I faced an army consisting of the following:

2 riptides
2 units of suits (one of the suits being his commander)
2 hammerheads
3 fire warrior squads, one in a devilfish with carbines I think

(im not super familiar with tau obviously) Each of these had bunches of upgrades and such.

I deployed first and went first though that didn't help me considering how tough his army was. I managed to destory virtually all of his fire warriors by the end of the game...but those damn suits and riptides are stupid ridiculous...BS2 overwatch is a bunch of BS especially for how cheap the upgrade is. Otherwise it was the plentiful S6-S7 low ap weapons that just weathered me into the ground. However for all my complaining I did make a couple mistakes I believe that were super noticeable to me.

His suits with commander and ton of shield drones baited  part of my main thrust into the center and I couldn't do enough damage when I did launch that assault to matter. My wraithguard attempted to D-scythe the suits but it just didn't work out and left them exposed to die next turn. My grots went to town on some fire warriors and the devilfish though...they certainly did the most damage all game (yay for T5, fnp!) My left flank push was both of my talos and my wracks with a kabalite squad and one wych squad. I just couldn't make it far enough, though that side focused on a riptide and put it down to 1 wound left before it bounced out of reach and his other suit squad managed along with other stuff blew away my talos...(PS I hate rolling aweful charge distances like 3 when I'm 6" away lol...that hurts talos a ton). My right flank was mainly my wraithknight with a warrior squad. The WK always missed with one of his shots and in the end only killed a hammerhead and put a single freaking wound on the other riptide.  I gave up once all my flanks main units were toast end of T4.

So my analysis. I pushed on too broad a front. It didn't help that I deployed first so I had no idea what I was going to see. I launched my midboard assault potentially prematurely. I went for some kills that didn't fully pan out which sucked. I also missed a bunch of assault charges due to crap roles so that didn't help either on my flanks. Suits are difficult to keep up with since they get to jetpack in the assault phase using 2D6 choose highest. My friend generally rolled quite high for those so that hurt as well.


So the question is how do I fight them next time?
1) Focus on one push in one area to force target saturation.
2) Consider not taking wyches...they never stood a chance to do much of anything. Wracks would have worked better along with more venoms. However, loosing all my boats was easy kill points for him so that doesn't necessarily work.
3) WK is starting to make me upset with how often I miss with the cannons...I'm seriously considering going back to suncannon and getting an invuln again which would be useful especially against grav lists and marines in general.
4) Consider how killpoints affect my list builds.
5) ...
6) Profit

However as much as I whine here I see the short comings of my list but I do see some hope for my Marine list I mentioned. FNP absolutely saved the day for my grots. 40 marines with FNP would surely do a CRAP  TON BETTER than normal against tau. The S6/7 shots may go through my armor but would allow a FNP save which would allow me to get a ton closer and do damage. My cent devs would pummel through the riptides with little to no problem and force him to do risky overcharging. Furthermore I could rip through the lesser suits with ease with grav weapons and plasma.

Overall my DelDar list just relied too much on getting close which is how the Tau just wear you down into dust.

EDIT:
Furthermore, my eldar allies make me want to consider using my spiritseer as a farseer, moving the WG to elites and taking a small jetbike squad as troops so I can use a farseer and use divination to help me out more...That would take some thinking though.

Well, I won't dissect the match too much as you know what went wrong regardless. I've mentioned on the thread many many times that deployment an positioning win games. As simple as the concept is, it so often gets lost when we are baited out of position or do not focus on the mission. We need to eliminate units one at a time and always support each unit with others. Here is the list I played yesterday ...

Eldar Primary
135: Farseer, Jetbike, Spirit Stone of Anath'lin
100: Farseer
122: 2x of 3 Windrider Jetbikes, Shuriken Cannons
51: 3 Windrider Jetbikes
220: 20 Guardian Defenders, 2 Bightlances
480: 2 Wraithknight

Dark Eldar Detachment:
240: Asdrubel Vect
205: 15 Wyches, Haywire, Hekatrix, Venom Blade, PGL
192: 4 Beast Masters - 7 Khymerae, 4 Razorwing Flocks
105: Talos, TL Liquifier Gun, TL Splinter Cannon

(1850)

Yep ... I shelved my Grots and Urien. I knew I would be up against a very good Nec/CSM player who has given me headaches in the past. This list is designed to attack a flank and push through. It can handle about anything and although it looks weak on flyer defense it is not a huge issue and it dominates anything on the table. Despite your dislike of WKs now, used in tandem and flanking beasts and a talos they will waltz through an opponent's list.

Despite having to deal with two Ani Barges, three Night Scythes, a Heldrake and Wraiths, I never felt at a disadvantage. Even without the Baron clutch (fearless beast pack trumps Baron's buff any day of the week). Now I was casting psychic powers like a madman all game with impunity and that definitely helped.

I will agree that you need bikes. Troops win games. Having the ability to bring bikes on an grab objectives or contest and linebreak is what won me the game for sure. The windrider bikes are of paramount importance to winning with this list. I'll not go into the nuances on how my list functions. By now, if you have kept up with the thread, you should have a good isea. It is the strongest DelDar list I field but I usually leave it at home when playing in my LGS. I'm too in love with Urien not to field him and his grots even though a beast pack with Vect is far better (I'm not about to argue this if it not transparent). As well it is great to play a footlist when everybody and their uncle are gearing up to demech you. Yep, no wave serpents, crimson hunters, venoms or raiders here.

Now, I have heard all the comments - blasts and templates will ruin my day. The Wyches will never make combat. The beast pack needs more razorwings. On and on. Youbknow the Wyches will make combat. The Guardians with battle focus will do damage. Even though the BLs seem a bit counter intuitive. No I don't have AA - I ignore flyers instead or prescience my WKs for a turn. But the list works and works consistently because I focus on priority targets and the mission and I NEVER leave a troop out to hang by itself.

I like that list a lot it looks fun. 15 wyches on foot are interesting but you are running so many blobs that something is going to make it across haha. I don't dislike WKs I just dislike missing with the 2 shots I get haha. I'm planning on reverting to the suncannon and shield with a single scatter laser for now on. I'm garunteed to hit with all my little pie plates and should do well inflicting casualties. Heck, it can even kill light tanks.

With a pair of WKs and a Talos you are not relying only on their shooting. Assault with them. I see way too many batreps where the WKs are held back as only area denial units firing their cannons. They will destroy andy vehicle in assault and paired they destroy squads.

On another note, lately I have been having great success with larger blobs. I've done limited testing, I admit, but the outcomes of matches where I've used them have been very promising. It's why I included a battle sisters squad in the SoB list, why I have large squads of FOs in the necron list and why I play with large guardian and wyche squads. Now playing blobs takes some careful positioning and you need to focus on what you intend doing with them all game but the rewards outweigh the drawbacks for me. I will at some time write a detailed analytical tactica on blobs in 6ed. I'm just too spent to go into detail now. Suffice to say that blob squads can sometimes put out disgusting amounts of either firepower or assaults and shift the game in a dramatic fashion. I'll just say that they can buffer, score, deny, contest, shoot and assault with the best and can be used as either AI/ or AT or both. Not too shabby really.

Oh I love to assault with my WK...I failed my first charge of the game due to a crappy role

So it was randomly brought up today about coming up with an IG list that uses conscripts. I took a quick gander at a PURE IG list (1850pts). It uses a lot of bodies to get the job done.

HQ:
Company Command Squad
-Colonel Straken, 3x plasma guns, vox caster
-chimera

2x Ministorum Priests

TROOPS:
Platoon 1
-Command squad: Chenkov, 3 plasma, vox caster
-2x Infantry Squads: autocannons, vox casters
-Conscript Squad (50 dudes) with send in the next wave!
-Heavy Weapon Squad (3x lascannons)
-Heavy Weapon Squad (3x Mortars)

Platoon 2
-Command squad: Sarge, 3 plasma, vox caster
-2x Infantry Squads: autocannons, vox casters
-Conscript Squad (50 dudes) with send in the next wave!
-Heavy Weapon Squad (3x lascannons)
-Heavy Weapon Squad (3x Mortars)

HEAVY SUPPORT:
2x Hydras


So this is really a huge Foot IG list. It fields 200+ men on the field...talk about model count. The idea is to run Straken and Chenkov within 12" of both conscript squads (cheap way to get massed bodies). This way the squads get the stubborn rule from chenkov and furious charge/counter-attack from Straken...makes them pretty funny. Furthermore, you give each conscript squad a priest so they can reroll to hit in the first round of close combat. Otherwise the rest of the army sits back and lets loose with heavy weapons. I chose two mortar squads because you can barrage snipe with them and try to get some pinning tests. I've had them used against me in the past and they are quite funny at times. The hydras give you some solid AA which is nice.

Thoughts? The IG dex gives a ton of options so there are other options available, so this is really a first pass. However this list does give you the ability to scare and confuse your opponents with two 50 man squads charging across the battlefield...tau can try to shoot them all down but hey you can make them come back to life if you need to due to Chenkov. You're heavy weapons will generally do a lot of heavy lifting for a list like this. The blobs do what they can and generally just soak fire up.

I think you want Creed too. IG can be simple: 50 conscripts with Chenkov. Give them the Scout special rule (Lord castellan Creed Tactical Genius special rule) and let them outflank. Give then the FIrst rank Fire, Second Rank fire Order and you will kill enough with 150 lasguns shots. Command squads can have plasma but flamers will auto=wound. Embark Castellan Creed and Sergeant Kell in a chimera and let Creed give orders to the conscripts first rank fire second rank fire: 150 lasgun shots can kill anything on 12" range : and they are good for slowing the enemy. That would be my base. Then I would add in the surprise ... some CSM to make life difficult.

LET THE DOGS LOOSE 1850

HQ
Company Command Squad : (365)
- Creed/Kell
- MoO, Astropath,
- 4 Grenade Launchers
- Chimera, Multi-laser, Flamer

TROOPS
Infantry Platoon : (85)
- Chenkov
- Mortar
Infantry Squad :  Flamer, in Vendetta, Heavy Bolters (195)
Infantry Squad :  Flamer, in Vendetta, Heavy Bolters (195)
50 x Conscripts : (275)
- Next Wave
Veteran :  3 MG, 1 Flamer in Vendetta, Heavy Bolters (295)

-1360-

HQ
Daemon Prince : Wings, Mark of Nurgle, Power Armor, Black Mace (265)

TROOPS
10 x Chaos Cultists  Flamer (55)

FAST ATTACK
Heldrake: Baleflamer (170)

-490-


Now we are making a list that has some punch ... well over 100 bodies flooding the table and coming at from all angles. Plenty of AT and AA. Plenty of AI. Sure as heck there will be people crying foul over the Vendettas and Heldrake. I know the concept of spamming them is not new but this list has an entirely different perspective and style from what is generally seen. Good luck taking down all those troops. Usually i do not use 'net' builds and this almost smacks of one but ypou must admit it has a very interesting twist. No one will really expect to see those conscripts returning every other turn, lol. And controlling reserves and manipulating the responses has to be fun.  

The beauty of conscripts is their pure disposability. If they get utterly wiped out in any phase, they’ll just be back at the beginning of the next turn. You can shoot them again and again. You don't want them shooting back. You don't want them in assault. They are constant pressure. And keeping them from claiming an objective is very hard. Your other squads can sit anywhere on the table and you can bolster them at any time simply by removing the conscripts and then redeploying them to buffer the side.  

Now Ligs is using the conscripts the same way but he is protecting a static firebase. Yhis is can work. But I want a highly mobile list instead. Vendettas and Heldrake and Winged DP can pressure any area of the board and isolate units and fold flanks with conscript support.

I forgot scout gave you outflank, that indeed looks like a good base...but I'm not all that into vendettas/valkyries. I really didn't want to be that guy and spam vendettas...I was going for more conscripts in the end as well to make it a truly conscript based list. I know you can only scout one unit with Creed but why not outflank more units while we are at it. We could use Al'rahem to get an entire platoon to outflank instead. Give them chimeras, special weapons and overwhelm a flank. So if we use Chenkov and Al'rahem we have some interesting options to make some stupid funny list. Furthermore, we can save points on the HQ slot hopefully, since all it needs to do is sit back and do some orders on the big guns in the back.

So taking your contribution and putting my new spin I have come up with the following list. I've cut some costs in the HQ department...that just seemed way to expensive for what was ultimately a bunch of guardsmen. The advisors are nice but only two in my mind are really nice for this list...astropath and Master of Ordnance. Thus, I give you my base which comes in at 1545 points, from here you can modify weapons and the last 300+ points as you wish.

HQ
Company Command Squad
-Astropath + MoO
-Vox


TROOPS
Platoon 1: Outflankers
-50 Conscripts (Send in next wave)
-2x Infantry Squads (meltaguns, voxes) in chimeras
-Platoon Command Squad with Alrahem (vox, 3x plasma) in chimera

Platoon 2: Into the breach and Hold the Line!
-50 Conscripts (Send in next wave)
-2x Heavy weapon squads (3x lascannons)
-2x Infantry squads (autocannons,voxes)
-infantry command squad with Chenkov (autocannon, vox)

Honestly the second squad of conscripts isn't super necessary and if you wish could easily add in other things in its place. However, the idea is to have more bodies in the field to prevent you from getting tabled before you're reserves get in. To this end you could add an aegis to help you live. Otherwise the idea is to run the 2nd conscripts forward into the breach! and bait and confuse your enemy into focusing on them. Hopefully you're flank comes in turn 2 and you slam into a flank at close range and let loose with an ungodly amount of lasguns. Al'rahem gives 1st/2nd rank to blob and they let loose on something. The chimeras target tougher units and if you end up coming in next to tanks you can let loose the melta guns or even Al'rahem with all the plasma.

End of turn 2 your opponent now has heavy firepower pummeling him from your original deployment and a large flanking incursion force, hopefully confusing his target priority and crushing his resolve by the massive amount of men you just threw into his face. Using artillery in your back field will only help im guessing. Throw in your support of choice really. The lascannons and autocannons have a good 48" range and throw down against heavier armed targets such as vehicles that normal guardsmen have issues with...ie your flanking force.

I'd say this or Eg's list will do well against many armies. The key is using orders properly and target prioritizing properly.

Now if I were going for pure fun and dropped those vendettas I could still make a dirty list with conscripts. I always wanted a deathstar ccs, lol.

HQ
Company Command Squad: 700
- Medi-Pack
- Kell
- Creed
- Heavy Flamer
- 2 Plasma Gun
- Krak Grenades
- Carapace Armour, Camo cloaks
- Astropath, Officer of the Fleet, Master of Ordnance
- 2 Bodyguard, Nork Deddog
- Chimera
- Pintle-mounter storm bolter,  Hunter-killer missile, Heavy flamer
- Dozer Blade, Extra Armour, Camo netting

TROOPS
Infantry Platoon : (85)
- Chenkov
- Mortar
Infantry Squad :  Autocannon (60)
Infantry Squad :  Autocannon (60)
50 x Conscripts : (275)
- Next Wave
10 Penal Legion 80

FAST ATTACK
3x  Scout Sentinel: Multi-laser (105)

-1365-

HQ
Daemon Prince : Wings, Mark of Nurgle, Power Armor, Black Mace (265)

TROOPS
10 x Chaos Cultists  Flamer (50)

FAST ATTACK
Heldrake: Baleflamer (170)

-485-

I just need to survive turn one, lol. Then everything outflanks and starts doing damage. In all honesty though I do not think I would field the Chenkov/conscript list. Fun as it may be I think there are better IG builds with less shenanigans. Not that I do not promote shenanigans abd dirty tricks because I most certainly do but in this case I'm just not sure. I feel there are a lot of lists out there that might punish mne for being so cute - which i am.

His list - it is pretty accurate I'm sure ...

Pure Eldar  -1850

Farseer, jetbike, spear, mantle
Spiritseer (he used Iyanden rules for battle focus WG)

5 x Wraithguard - D-Scythes in Wave Serpent, TL Scatter Laser, Shuricannon, Vectored engines
10 x Dire Avenger inc Exarch, shimmershield , Wave Serpent, TL Scatter Laser, Shuricannon, Vectored engines
2x 3 x Jetbikes inc cannon

6 x Swooping Hawks inc Exarch, sunrifle - 121
2x 8 x Warp Spiders inc Exarch, TL Deathspinner - 167

2x Nightspinner
Fireprism + cannon

My list ... all nicely formatted, lol ... I made some changes to my list after digesting comments by Hijallo in the WK thread. I was using Vect for fearless but it does make sense to use the Baron and a Shard. I completely overlooked the Shard. I was well pleased with the change.

DelDar MTO List

Eldar Primary
155: Farseer, Jetbike, Shard of Anaris  
135: Farseer, Jetbike, Singing Spear, Spirit Stone of Anath'lin
153: 3x of 3 Windrider Jetbikes
220: 20 Guardian Defenders, 2 Brightlances
480: 2x Wraithknight

Dark Eldar Detachment
105: Baron Sathonyx
220: 15 Wyches, Haywire, Hekatrix,  Agoniser, PGL
270: 5 Beast Masters - 10 Khymerae, 6 Razorwing Flocks
105: Talos, TL Liquifier Gun, TL Splinter Cannon

(1850)

I did not add up the points for my opponent's list but I know him to be pretty accurate ...

I took divination on both seers ...
jetseer - guide, prescience, misfortune (meh, not terrible)
jetseer - guide, forewarning, scrier's gaze ( was very pleased with these rolls)

I decided to put the walking seer with my wyches ... oh yes.

Now his list is really aggressive. He plays the same style I am laying but he has some tricks. Those Swooping Hawks are very hard to take out, the spyders are quick as anything and hard to get into cc. I was not too worried about the spinners and fire prism. I was pretty sure I could take them out along with the wave serpents but his ignore cover serpents needed to go quickly. He had to move them up ... I knew that ... as his troops inside were his damage dealers. So I let him go first - won the roll ... Now usually you want your bikes in reserve to grab objectives .. we both wanted them to be safe and not give up VPs.

This game went back and forth. I did kill hios serpensts early ... BLs and wyches did one, WK another. But his warp spyders and swooping hawks tormented me. even with decent cover and saves they were problematic. I got to his spinners and prism easily enough. But he moved everything as fast as me. We were both bust advancing trying to get mathematical superiority on a section of the table. It was a real duel.

He was having problems with my beasts and WKs and Talos. I was having problems with his spyders and hawks. I targeted his WG and DA as early as I could. I wantedto kill as many units as possible focusing fire one at a time.. He went for my beasts and troops (felt they were the easiest victory points). He wanted my troops gone too. It was quite amusing actually. He had a lot of distort and DA can do some damage early too. But in the end my one WK - lost one and Talos and what remained of my beast pack proved just a bit too much. I managed to kill more units than him (VP mission), line break and objectives were less odf an issue I also got first blood. I could not kill his %**#$ warlord though. But nor did he get to mine so .... Both survived the game which ended turn five - yep a quick game. The mission also favored me I believe - Purge the Alien (ironic as it was eldar vs. eldar).

He attempted to dominate my WKs - he rolled for telepathy on his seer so he got psychic shriek (not too bad), dominate (which i managed to stop all but once) and guide. Neither of us got fortune or doom, meh. I think he should have taken divination as well. It let my early shooting hurt him more. With guide, and prescience going around i had some decent rolls. I really liked my jetseers. Fearless and able to cast a lot of powers while shrouded and stealthed - good. The beast pack configuration with that many khymerae - excellent and tough. Wyches with foreboding not bad. Guardians with guide and battle focus  - decent enough. I spread out the other powers as needed.

All in all a very close game that could easily have gone either way. I'm not sure i would have won if went another turn. But to make things clear - WKs> Nightspinners/FirePrism. Also the beast pack is quite beastly. Two seers and the baron and that many khymerae make it rock hard and it just dominates the board and it is very fast. What do you do with it? Short of removing cover ( and I have div powers and khymerae for inv. anyway)  or templating it - which if spread out properly still will not kill it - what do you do? And it s protected by WKs and Talos. Woot.

In the Wraithknight's favor is the pressure it takes off of your other units.  Because it is a dangerous unit in assault and shooting at elite infantry, most opponents will focus fire on it immediately.  This takes the pressure off of your troops, and other units (beast pack), allowing them to survive longer into the game, dealing more damage.  Wraithknights really mess up target priority for the opponent if it's constantly advancing, threatening assaults. The Talos just adds another dimension. It takes an inordinate amount of focused firepower to take out one WK in general. Certainly lists with ;poison or instant death weapons will require less expenditure of resources but still ... two WK and A Talos in a Victory point mission is tough.

- food for thought - hero hammer and blobs

I would hope by now people are noticing a new trend in my lists. I've been trying hard to exploit two new strategies. One is incorporating blob squads. The other is using a deathstar. In fact I have both in some lists. I have addressed the pros and cons of both. It really boils down to risk and reward though. Both units can change the whole course of a game. Many opponent's are just not set up to deal with either - a balanced list just does not have the focused firepwer to take out either in one turn usually IF you set them up correctly. This allows for turn pushes that dominate areas of the board. Of course these units need support. That is where your list building skill is tested. On the table these units need to be deployed correctly and you must carefully position your force  for either of the units to be effective. There are games where things just do not go right and nothing seems to align. But there are more games where you can really dictate the outcome by turn two or three.

So I've promoted in this thread blobs of SoB, blob of IG, blobs of DE warriors, CM/Biker deathstars, CCS deathstars, beast pack deathstars and many more. It is easy to dismiss blobs as vulnerable to templates, fleeing, getting tar pitted etc. Deathstars can be viewed 'as all your eggs in one basket', 'one trick pony', way too costly, etc.  I'm not saying that those criticisms have no merit but I will say that a lot of winning tournament lists use these squads. The decision ultimately lies with the player.

We always have choices. In my DelDar list I had to make a few of them. 650+ points for two Jetseers, Baron and a large beast pack. Spend those points and then you have no room for Crimson Hunters or Void Ravens. You see my pack needs support and WKs are infinitely better supporting them. So I make a choice to rule the ground and deal as best I can with flyers. I can aply this same principle to any of my lists. Running blobs means you have less mech and mobility overall. Running DKs, WKs and Riptides eats into your ability to field more troops or transports. Everything has a cost. So consider all the factors but most of all field a list you are comfortable with and understand.

Finally, you need to reallly understand what a deathstar is. First and foremost is must be durable. Apart from any ability to deal damage it must also be able to take a lot of damage. I use a beast pack with two Jetseers, Baron and ten khymerae. This unit is rock hard. It does not flee. I use a Screamer star with three heralds, grimoire and foreboding. Again it is rock hard and deals the damage. My SM'IH list uses a pair of Rune Priests on bikes, a CM on a bike and fibe IH bikers. You will notice that all three deathstars use psychic buffs or powers, all three are capable of dealing a lot of damage and all three can dominate areas of the board. Note the movement on all my deathstars as well. This is very important. All of the units can reposition very quickly and get well within rtarget range turn two. This is a very important aspect when configuring your deathstars. Now one star uses beasts (so good in 6ed) with very fast support units (WKs) and another has beasts of nurgle in support. My SM/IH deathstar has three pods to support their advance.

Now I've already written a tactica on why I use blobs so I won't rehash it here. Go back and look at the SOB blob or conscript blob and how they function and you will understand the uses of such units to tar pit, buffer, control, contest, etc. In 6ed troop blobs have come into their own.

I, like Eg, have themes to a bunch of my lists, generally including a super tough unit or several for my DE that amount to several mini deathstar like units. For my marines, I like to include at least one deathstar unit because marines need at least one unit that can go the distance for the whole game dealing damage. I'm working on coming up with a second list that may be a future alternative main list for me. The idea is to drop the wyches and add another warrior squad and a cronos as a way to get pain tokens to my talos which desperately need them early on. More to come on that soon I'm sure.

EDIT: Here is the list I played around with earlier.

Primary: DE
-Archon (shadowfield, huskblade, VB)
-Haemie (liquifier, power axe)
-4 grots in a boat
-3x 10man warrior squad with cannon
-5 wracks (liquifier) in venom (dual SC)
-2x Talos (SC,liquifier)
-Cronos (spirit vortex)

ALLIES: Eldar
-Spiritseer (wraithforge stone)
-5x Wraithguard (wraithcannons) in Wave serpeant (holofields, scatter laser, cannon)
-Wraithknight (suncannon, shield, scatter laser)

So there is certainly something interesting going on here...very few boats and I took away the wyches and their boats. I might be worth combining two warrior squads for a blob to distract my opponent from the all the talos and the cronos that will feed pain tokens around as quick as it can. Grots go beat the crap out of w/e as usual...they have been super successful at this in all my past games...I love them so. So there are a couple things that worry me slightly with this list...lack of lances and wyches for AT. HOWEVER, my wyches haven't done much for me lately and my lances suffer from the curse of the lance usually. I figure my WG and WK can handle AT if needed as they are mobile and powerful. WK will go for heavy infantry and assault when possible and reasonable. The only thing I don't own is the cronos but thats reasonable to obtain. I think this would be a fun list as it has even more high T units and the ability to get pain tokens out as well as I can. Making a blob squad and getting it a pain token real quick could be funny. March them all across the battlefield and lay waste with an army that has much more dakka than my last list.

**Also I finished painting my 2nd talos today finally! I'll move onto my wracks and haemie next probably....just need to find what I did with my green stuff for making my custom haemie...grrr

***On a side note, looks like I'm getting a Stormraven (unassembled for only $50!) from my friend on monday. I am working on figuring out how to get it into an 1850 point list but I'm thinking I may need to save it only for 2k+ games so I can still utilize my deathstar and mass tacticals. I'll keep looking into 1850 using this though.

Just to address your SM army deathstar ...

The Lysander/Corbulo star is pretty disgusting.  outside of my screamerstar or beaststar it ranks number one methinks.You can fire a mass quantity of shots, none of it AP2. If you LOS all of it to corbulo, you have a 1/3 chance to fail armor, 1/6 chance to fail FNP, and a 1/6 chance again because of all seeing eye.So a 1/108 chance to wound corbulo while he still has his reroll or that he's 99.1% likely to be fine.Then Lysander can tank the low volume, high strength dakka. Good like removing the unit.

Now nothing is stopping you from coupling this with another very viable threat. You have dual threats allowing your deathstar to get into position. You have to tthe second threat - they are going to hurt you if you do not. At the GT they used in Dante, Sanguinary Priest, Sanguinary Guard squad add a CM with pack, shield, and TH from the SM contingent and did exceptionally well.

Now you want a transport for your cents but at the GT they never bothered. After all your average range on the unit will be 27.5" so all the nonsense about how they are way too slow is just that. Nonesense.

And speaking of grav - don't let me hear that they are not an all-comers weapon. I am not a fan of over spamming them but they will handle 3+, 2+, MCs and vehicles. In a cent squad you add hurricane bolters for extra horde control and bikes have bolters too.

This my thought on your SM list. But go for Tiggy if you like. You can still use a very similar loadout with Tiggy and another top tier IC. But I think gate libby is not enough of a threat.

Looking at cents what hurts them really. Manticores yes, (til they nerf them in the upcoming dex)
Demolishers and vindicators have the same threat range so its cat and mouse, that and the 50mm bases will mean only 1 or two will get hit at a time. Vendettas will only knock one wound at a time and with either cover or the 4++ it will take some time. There might be other things in the army like storm talons. Plasma vets will get 1 shot at 24", meaning they get in the zone of doom a turn or two before hand. And remember how many hits Corbulo and Lysander can take. And if you assault Lysander will winn challenges while Corbulo and squad clean up.

As for damaging reliably, the sgt has pretty good odds of killing a tank on his own, and the rest of the unit will kill whatever vehicle or squad on their own. You're looking at 30 reroll hit/wound hits with grav weapons, against 5+ saves that's 14 wounds, plus the 18 bolter shots at 24" (36 shots at 12") from the hurricane bolters. Against even flyers a 6+ rerollable is 30% and you will remove its hull points in one round.

My advice - do not play this against friends.

I may not need gate at all I agree. A 30" threat bubble is pretty large for the fire they can output. Using Loth gives plenty of other options like puppet master and other power abilities which can really change a game around. I'll gladly take control of your riptide and blow away a portion of your army, etc. Loth is more than just a tool for gating, he has plenty of options that I could choose from based on the match and board I am looking at. Furthermore he has access to a 2++ that he could use to tank some shots. I think there is a lot of potential still in using Loth and Tiggy. Ultimately, if I don't loth I still think RS tacticals are going to be fairly useful at staying alive and giving board control...however I will still have to test this. If it doesn't work I can always switch the contingents around and figure something else out.

Ultimately, there are plenty of options for different deathstars. Honestly, I am unfamiliar with Lysander and Corbulo (especially this guy...who is he?). I still plan on doing what I have discussed because I believe that beyond this particular deathstar there are other options for these librarians in other combos at this time. Besides I think the star I plan on using needs to be tested out to see how it fairs. I really think it has some chances at wrecking havoc in combination with good support.

I think Loth, Tiggy and 6 cents is pretty fierce as well. you just need a secondary unit of something to take the heat turns one or two to get them positioned. Brother Corbulo is a BA elite so he is allied in. Bullets don't hurt your troops as much and you get one free re-roll a game. And this can be for any roll except deployment or game continuation. Unless he dies before you use it,. He very tough with 2+ FnP, and very killy, with S5 Rending chainsword, but costs as much as two ordinary Priests and is still vulnerable to powerfists. But well worth it. So you would add him if and i say If you want BA allies. So if not Dante even an assault libbie with assault troops works or if you want to be mean Meph and an assault squad or scout squad as troops. Again just food for thought.