A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

egorey wrote:

I was thinking about your old gretchin list J and how much cheaper and better it is with the new codex ... I have no doubt that Orks footslog best.

warboss: megaarmour, lucky stikk, headwompa, da finkin kap, bosspole (with manz) 125
big mek: kff, custom mega blaster, cybork 110 (with tankabustas)
8 meganobs: hammers, 2 kombi-skorchas 330
10 tankabustas: hammers: painboy, pole: trukk, rokkit, ram 235
2x 20 gretchin:  runtherder, hounds  150
2x 25 boyz: shoota/slugga, nob, bp, pk 380
5 warbuggies: rokkits 125
5 warbuggies: rokkits 125
2x5 mek guns; mega kannon ammo runt 180
5 mek guns: traktor kannon, ammo runt 90
-1850-  

It has 90 troops leading the charge and tankabustas and meganobs following up. Ten warbuggies! Ten mega kannons! It has AA and anti-skimmer in tarktor kannons. I think this list would rival IG for blob hordes. It has the artillery. It has the cc blobs. But it also has hammers that IG lacks. I know I would not want to face that list. The big problem is moving 145 mosels a turn, lol. And of course buying all those models (mek guns alone will break the bank).

When you are getting pounded by ten rokkit buggies and that horde is advancing you have decisions to make for sure. Wading through the mobs to get at the tankabustas, meganobs and artillery will be a pita. You will get pounded by dakka early and steady. The grots are really a kff in themselves but what the heck ... I added one for the tankabustas anyway. And don't think that tankabustas cannot go cc .. they can.

J has mentioned two key components to winning games. First, apply the strategy of Positional Dominance over your opponent. If you can control his movement, then you should be able to wrack up those Maelstrom points at the very least. Having fast units to back up your slower ones and being able to fill your half of the table allows you to control the flow of the game. You need to take adavntage of it. Second, always hide the knife. In this case you are burying the knifes behind walls of grots and boyz and behind a wall of buggies.
.

yaya! I like the cut of your jib on this rewrite of my oldey but goody. I might have gone with less Ork Boyz, but I get what you're after here. It looks fun.

Unorthodoxy wrote:

missed the deadline by 39 minutes.  Lol.  Do we give him a pass?

Shadowseer originally posted his list last Sunday, just in the announcement thread for the comp instead of here in the blog.  So I have included him in the list of entrants.

And everyone please note that the deadline for posting (confirmed) is midnight, Pacific Standard Time (PST), this coming Sunday, July 6th, so anyone sitting on a fence over this competition needs to get a move on       

Moar on Orks ... So I've done a bit of testing using proxies of whatever models I have and filling in with some fantasy as well - don't laugh.

Orks BS sucks as a whole. So yes, I like rokkits but they rarely hit. Orks need to get to cc or use a lot of shots or a blast. So load up on buzzsaws, hammers and PKs.

Bikes, btw, have 'ere we go. They are also possibly one of the best deathstars out there - yes I said it, lol. They have bucket loads of attacks, decent dakka, jink, and FNP.

Calling a waagh is really good for making units fearless ... and trukks also make units fearless (in the trukk). Mob rule can hurt. I had a nob run away on me and it was quite disappointing. But in cc you have a lot less to worry about.

Orks can be as mobile as any army out there ... use it to your advantage. Trukks, BWs, Looted Wagons, Bikes, whatever. Orks are great with speed. I'm not saying footslogging cannot work. It can. But speed kills.

The best and only relic you need is the lucky stikk. A warboss in a large squad will be using this all game long. Since the Boss can only take one relic  - this is it.

Tankbustas have lousy BS. Non-the-less you have enough shots that something is gonna hit. But take at least one hammer in your squad. Sooner or later they get charged or have to charge.

The expensive Meq guns are not as good as lootas. By all means take kannons or zzaps though. And for heaven's sake add some ammo runts.

So I'm in the process of modeling a list vusing all fantasy models. I needed to test a bit before committing to unit composition - I don't want to remodel anything just add. This is my final list for 1500 - which is all I can afford to build now. I made a few comprises to keep within my monetary budget but I think the list quite strong.

duck wrote:

GO FASTA ORKZ
warboss: slugga, power klaw, lucky stikk, bike (starts in warbikerz mob) 135
painboy biker (in warbikerz mob) 75
12 tankbustaz, tankhammer, nob, bp, trukk, big shoota, ram 226
2x 12 boyz, slugga/choppa, nob, pk, bp, trukk, big shoota, ram 304
14 gretchin, runtherder 47 (buffers lootas and gunz)
15 warbikerz, nob, klaw, bp 310
2x 3 deffkopts, tl rokkits 180
12 lootaz 168
3 mek gunz, kannon, 3 ammo runtz,54
-1500-

My ork list so far, a remake of the one I did a while back out of the scraps I borrowed from a friend, which we talked about in the chat area:

Orks

124pts  Warboss (Eavy Armor, Kombi-Skorcha, Da Lucky stikk, Power Klaw)

103pts  Big Mek (Eavy Armor, Shock Attack Gun, 3 Ammo runts, Git Finda)

110pts  10 Ork Boyz (Shootas, Rockit Launcha, Nob w/PowerKlaw)
30pts (Trukk w Rockit Launcha)
61pts  17 Gretchin (Runtherd w/ Grot Prod)
67pts  19 Gretchin (Runtherd w/ Grot Prod)
67pts  19 Gretchin (Runtherd w/ Grot Prod)
67pts  19 Gretchin (Runtherd w/ Grot Prod)

199pts  13 TankBustaz (2 TankHammerz)

425pts  10 Meganobz (5 Kombi-Scorchas)

225pts  10 Kommandos (+Snikrot, 2 Burnas, Nob w PowerKlaw)

100pts  4 Warbuggies (Rockit Launchas)
100pts  4 Warbuggies (Rocki Launchas)

104pts  4 Zzap Guns+8 Gretchin (4 Ammo Runts)

104pts  4 Zzap Guns+8 Gretchin (4 Ammo Runts)

112pts  8 Lootas

1998

Just as a comparison.

I take 15 Warbikers + Nob with bosspole and klaw + Bikerboss with klaw and lucky stikk  + Painboy with bike granting FNP. That is 56 S4 WS5 attacks w/slogga/choppa and attack bonus,  (but casualties will most likely happen before then), 4 S5 poisoned attacks, 4 S9 AP2 attacks, and 5 S10 AP2 w/ rerolls attacks on the charge and that without firing your guns first. They shoot 51 twinlinked S5 AP5 shots. Try and attack them and take that overwatch.  I also get my star for 520 pts total. Now I might lose a few models, I admit but overall it is quite the deathstar. And it has a bosspole! It can also turbo - boost for 3+ cover saves or just take the jink 4+ save w/ rerolls (thanks to painboy). Isn't jink nice. Now bikers also get furious charge +1 strength like manz. What manz do not get is the extra 17 hammer of wrath attacks - woot. Any unit surviving this squad had better be some tough.

Your deathstar costs 30 pts more and has 40 manz attacks (albeit at AP2) but init 1 on the charge and 5 S10 AP2 w/ rerolls attacks, six scorchas (nice but I have 17 dakkaguns), and no FNP. Furthermore yours is way slower, lol. They are SnP so they cannot even get their skorcha overwatch shots. Now I like your build  - don't get me wrong, but I really feel that warbikers are the new black for Orks. Better even than the old Nob biker builds ...

Now having said all that our two builds have similarities and differences - mine is very fast - yours moves up and simply overwhelms your opponent. Both use lucky stikk boss, both have lootas and artillery, both use tankabustas, both buffer with grots. Some units are too good to pass in any build.

The bikes are good if you are having a problem reaching your targets. The 2 wounds and 2+ save, with Gretchin for cover saves makes the Meganobz a nigh unstoppable monster. Outside of the DeathStrike Missile Launcher, there isn't much that they fear. So the Gretchin force positional dominance. The enemy has to charge and kill Gretchen if they want to get closer...but they know they shouldnt because the Meganobz will walk through them. Yet if they shoot at the Meganobz, they will waste a LOT of fire power to down them and they may never get enough down to matter. It takes very few Meganobz to win a combat. So the enemy is put in a highly unenviable situation. Flyers will find it quite difficult to find a landing zone if the enemy doesnt kill gretchen (what a waste they will be thinking but...). The gretchen in these numbers create a lot of problems and it hardly is felt when we lose 5-6 of them. Good times. The bikes on the other hand operate well forward because they dont need the vocer, they get their faster but they can be killed easier. I thionk the bikes are GREAT when terrain is there to favor them and allowing them to strike without much return fire. I dunno. I think it works either way. 2+ armor is hard to beat though.

I'm loving these cool ork builds guys! I got a chance to skim through the dex and they look like a ton of fun. I'm curious as to what you guys think of the "Da thinkin kap" which gives you an additional warlord trait from the strategic table...I think this is a pretty sweet ability and can really give your orks some nice abilities...infiltrating 3 units? Just wanted to hear your thoughts on that.

I just moved and am already in contact with a local group of 40k players. I may have a game as early as tomorrow night. I'm curious to see how they play and really start to understand the concepts of local meta and starting games with players that aren't already friends. Hopefully it all goes smoothly, but I will report on my thoughts as I try to really up my play count with 40k

I get the build you are using doxy. But bikes get either 3++  or 4++ - so they are pretty durable as well and tough enough not be IDed too fast. I just wanted to point out the differences between both deathstars. Now in my list the bikes work because three trukks and the deffkoptas are also moving forward fast. They are not isolated targets at all.

In your list the meganobz work because you have so many grots taking overwatch for them and using them for a good counter charge. And yes, flooding the board with models does inhibit flyers. But all that said it comes down to choices. Do you like like playing a fast mobile hard hitting force that can also position itself to take out targets of opportunity - and therefore dominate the table - or are you content to see if anyone has enough blast templates to eat through your list before you control the center table.

As for damage output - well that depends on the target no? Meganobs can be taken out too. And the biker squad will get a heck of lot more dakka and attacks then the manz. Not much can take then on either. The point of the previous post was simply to compare the variability and effectiveness of each approach at building a hammer unit. There is no question that your list works Doxy (although mine is a 1500 list only as presented).

I think Da Finkin Cap is quite good BUT a warboss gets one relic. I'll take Lucky Stikk first any day. If I was using two warbosses my second choice still might not be the Cap - so many decent relics to pick from but ....

What do you face  - Xenos, Meq or Teq? What do you perceive as the weakness of each build and the strength of each build? Against let us say Wave Serpent spam - which would you rather play? How about a gunline IG or Tau?

Having now finally made maths work correctly and stop changing numerical values to suit it's whimsy I present my own addition to the Webway Portal List Competition.

First the list, then some explanation:

Combined Arms Detachment - Dark Eldar

Archon, Venom Blade, Shadow Field 95
Haemonculus Webway Portal, Liquifier gun 95


4 Grotesques, Liquifier gun 150
Raider, Dark Lance 60

3 Trueborn, 2 Splinter Cannons, Haywire Grenades, Plasma Grenades 65
Raider, Dark Lance 60


5 Wyches, Haywire Grenades 60
Venom, Additional Splinter Cannon 65

10 Kabalites, Splinter Cannon 100
Raider, Dark Lance, Splinter Racks 70


Ravager, 3 Disintegrators, Night Shields 115
Talos, Twin-linked Liquifier gun 105
Talos, Twin-linked Liquifier gun 105


Detachment Total - 1142


Allied Detachment - Necrons

Overlord, Resurrection Orb 120
Royal Court -

• Lord, Resurrection Orb 65
  
• Cryptek, Harbinger of Despair, Veil of Darkness 60
  

10 Necron Warriors 130
10 Necron Warriors 130


Monolith 200


Detachment Total -705


Grand Total - 1850


I will fully admit this might not be the most optimised or best list out there - which likely flies in the face of the competition, however the hope is that with clever tactical decisions and a decent strategy you can get something effective out of this, and end up with a fairly resilient - in places - and highly flexible force.

Firstly yes Necrons are 'Come the Apocalypse', this makes them actually using the Webway portal nigh on impossible with one portal and still very difficult with two - the list originally had two portals one for each faction but due to arriving from reserves being a 'deployment' you would need to dump the portal and then have the portal bearer be 12" away before any Necrons could use it, thus I abandoned that idea. ((As an aside I realised very late in the day that actually if I'm using 'Come the Apocalypse' allies that the idea of Nids pouring out of the portal would be even more amusing, however it was too late in the day and I'm not au fait enough with the new nid codex to work out what to use it for - though Hive Crones and Flyrant's coming out of it might be rather amusing difficulty still being the having to be 12" away from the DE))

As for the army itself originally my mantra was 'everything using the portal must be able to shoot' this was to ensure nothing wasted a turn flapping in the breeze but in the end I couldn't hold off the Haywire wyches, though I removed one squad when I realised I was aping other lists already in the competition - hence also way Reavers are notably absent - hence the desire to make the list fairly different - Grotesques and haywyches none-withstanding. The Necrons are intended to actually be fairly mobile, more in a one or two off fashion, but by using the Monolith and the Veil of Darkness they can go a fair way. To get the most out of the Monolith gateway have the Warriors move towards something they want to shoot whilst the Monolith moves the other direction towards something else they will want to kill, spinning the portal to be in the best placement, then the following turn portal through and open up, at it's maximum efficiency you can redeploy your warriors and then in the following turn redeploy them 18" away from where they just shot at something, which all things considering isn't awful, as you can do it every turn.

Also the Trueborn, yes their a weird, weird combination of bits and pieces, the plasma grenades are there purely when I found I had exactly 3 pts left over, and the Haywires are there to add to that flexibility I was espousing earlier, but more below.


Right enough gibber, as to the actual tactics.

Firstly at the very beginning of the game you look at your opponents list / deployment  and decide if you're actually going to Webway anything at all - bar the Talos' - nothing really ends up strung out if you don't use the portal. That was another major goal with this list, make it flexible enough that it can work with or without the portal. If you think you want to try going for an earlier assault with the Wyches, then keep them in their Venom and hurl it alongside the Grotesques and Kabalite Gunboat towards the enemy. I think technically the Kabalites are the only ones who really really lose out for not being in their Raider - seeing as it has Splinter Racks - but if you think it'll pay off to have them appear through a portal into cover instead, then... well feel free, though you may find people disagree with you.

In any case the Haemonculus with the portal can go with the Grotesques and Archon in their Raider - I should add the Archon & Grotesques are intended to go together, but again, flexibility is the watchword, so feel free not to - or in either the Wyches Venom, or with the Trueborn, or their Raider if their portalling in. The monolith is most likely to start in Reserve, so that you can make the most of it's Gateway to set up your Necron beachhead in the midfield / enemy backfield. The Cryptek warriors likely want to start on the board, but considering their Veil of Darkness re-deployability you could put them completely out of sight in your deployment zone in a fashion that doesn't limit your main forces deployment. Make sure there's a Resurrection orb in each Warrior regiment, likely put the Cryptek in with the Overlord, though if you want to spread it out a bit he could go in the alternative.

In most cases the Wyches and the Talos' will probably be the only things coming out of the portal, as the Splinterborn have the range to enjoy being on the board, they would probably benefit from having the Haem with them most, and it forces at least a little more of your opponents fire to be split. Have the non-cryptek warriors and the monolith in reserve. The Grotesques, and gunboats will probably be going straight for the enemy - ensuring all sensible considerations like LoS blocking terrain etc get used so as to weather the first turn of fire. Make sure the Haem jumps out and opens up the portal, you probably want a position that allows you to try and catch the enemy between the portal and where you intend to redeploy your Necrons to. Think the eponymous Hammer & Anvil strategy, the Necrons are your Anvil - with the Res orbs and the Monolith a hopefully fairly sturdy one too - and the DE are your Hammer, or stiletto as the case may be. Positioning is key, so look at the battlefield and really think about where you want to set up your killing zone - if you can find an objective for the Necrons to sit on too so much the better.

Use your Ravager to start removing unpleasant things you don't want assaulting your Necrons or generally getting in the way, and the empty 'Objective Secured' Venom can sit on a backfield or important objective in the first turn whilst shooting at things - Maelstrom missions will make this even better.

Turn two is kind of where it can all get a bit iffy, if the Monolith doesn't turn up then it gets a little more exciting as only one of your Necron units can redeploy, but if it does then set up your firebase with both units and open up on the Vehicles you need to Gauss to death - speaking of which the Gauss is also technically not too awful on an AA front  (shows how long ago I last opened a Necron codex, forgot it was 6 on the armour pen roll rather than the hit).

Use the gunboat warriors as you would expect to use them, poisoning to death anything they can, or softening up something for a cheeky pain-token grab by a Talos that's turned up - make sure you try and get your Talos' pain tokens early on like this when they appear as they'll appreciate it later. The Haywyches do as you'd expect too jumping on things that need to be Haywired to death - though if you really need to, you could throw them into an assault against something non-vehicular. The Grotesques are to be used as a missile, a slab of highspeed meat with a 2+ invulnerable save for if you need it - just try not to lose the Archon as having the unit eat itself in your own lines is just embarrassing. Both Talos' and the Grotesques can go vehicle hunting as needed, though obviously send them against target's they can hurt. The Monolith is there to be a distraction and fairly imposing as much as actually doing damage, things shooting at it aren't coming towards are fragile paper planes, and even more Gauss is nice for trying to finish off partially wrecked vehicles. To be honest most of it is self-explanatory it's making it all work together and taking advantage of having a fairly mobile and 'redeployable' Anvil alongside traditional DE speed.

The lone Venom & Ravager stay at range doing their respective jobs and the Raiders throw their paltry lance shots at things to the amusement of all.

The Trueborn, are there to basically be able to deal with whatever you need them to do. Need a little more poison to finish something off, or ensure that your Talos' can finish it off in it's first round of shooting, then you've got 9-14 shots out of them, need some more Haywire right now, they can throw or assault - though don't assault anything that's not partially maimed or that fights back - think you're enemy's too clumped up, then plasma and splinter cannon, dealer's choice and though their not going to be amazing at anything, the hope is that they can be the exact tipping point you want when you need it. And in the spirit of being needlessly different they were an alternative to the 6 Reavers that could have been there instead.

Oh and as a brief excuse for why the Necrons & Dark Eldar would ally like this I offer the following:

On the storm-wracked desert world of Xitarex an ancient war continues. In the tattered threads of the webway that run like veins through the skein of the planet and surrounding space two implacable foes continue their age-old duel. The planet itself is studded with Dolmen gates and Wraithbone arches, most shattered, ruined or hopelessly decayed, but the heart of the planet itself anchors the fraying realm together, and as such neither army would leave it to the other, though the battle has raged since what would seem like the beginning of time itself. Dark Eldar and Necron both desire the other dead with every fibre of their soul-hungry beings and so the war wages, but over time each has found the measure of the other, each has been a hairs breadth from victory and yet failed. Some say they have become too familiar with one another's forces, an eternal deadlock formed, and that victory is unattainable without some outside influence. Not so the forces of Xitarex, they have fought their war and coveted victory now for so long, that to see it claimed through the help of another fills them with bitterness and rage. So it has been that whenever an external force has attempted to land on Xitarex, whether to contribute to the war, or not, both forces have deployed to destroy them. Silently ignoring one another for as long as it takes to rid their planet of the interlopers, so that they might win their war alone.





I think the idea of deploying a short range mobile shooting firebase via a portal (or portals) - which was where I was going with this originally - could probably be better achieved with Tau as then you can deploy through the portal easily as long as you end up with 6" spacing however I don't have access to the Tau book. In the spirit of 'Forging a Narrative' you could even use a primarily Coven force to shield the Tau gunline and then you'd be very reminiscent of the The War of Dark Revelations.

My list for the List-building competition - a Webway portal list for 1850 pts

HQ
2-Haemonculus With WWP 170pts
1-Achon With Huskblade, combat drugs, soul trap, Phantasm grenade launcher, shadow field, haywire grenades. 175pts

Elite
1 X 5 Grotesques with liquefier gun. 185 pts

Troops
2 X 9 Wyches with Haywire grenades, in a rider with grisly trophies. 336 pts
3 X 5 Kabalite Warrior in a Venom with 2 SC. 330 pts

Fast Attack
2 X 5 Scorges with 2 heat lances. 268 pts

Heavy Support
2 X 1 Talos Pain Engine With Twin-linked heat lance and Chain-flails. 240 pts
1 X 1 Voidraven Bomber With Flickerfield and 4 shatterfield missiles. 145 Pts


1849 pts
Basic Strategy
the Haemuculus go with the wyches 1 in each unit to take place the WWP correctly
1 of the WWP go safe this on is placed 1 First turn If you go first you can leave 1 of the haemunculus out of his raider to place the maker just 6 inches from your deploy but remember the opponent can steal your initiative so this can be risk. the second one go flatout frist turn so you can get a better spot if you have late reserves. this part of my strategic i got from Shadowseer if this is a problem i can stay out of competition.
the wyches dont go out with the haemunculus they go straight the AV thing to use their haywire on it thats why you maybe let 1 haemunculu out if you got first turn soh you can flatout 2 wyches rider to AV things.
the kabalite warrior are here to make points if this mission is a maelstrom and the hit with their poison on anything they can.
and you wait the reserves come sou you get you achon protect with 5 grotesques to kill anything they want if they made to their assault fase.
the scorges the kill others AV things and after this got poison.
and the talos go for for distraction and when they get to their assault kill any troops or anything they can.
i thing this list got strong i dont know if i was unable to explain this list right. sry for my english im Brasilian. and Shadowseer if you dont like me using you idea tell me pls

Hi all, here is my entry for the list comp.

1848pts

Hq
Haemonculus - wwp - 85
Lelith Hesperax - 175

Elites
Incubi x4, klaivex - 125
Venom, x2 splinter cannons -65

Troops
Kabalite warriors x10, splinter cannon, raider, splinter racks-170
Wracks x4, venom x2 splinter cannons - 105
Wracks x5, venom x2 splinter cannons - 115
Wyches x14, hexatrix - 160
Wyches x10, raider - 160
Wyches x5, haywire grenades, venom x2 splinter cannons - 125

Fast attack
Reaver jetbikes x3, heatlance - 78
Scourges x5, haywire blaster - 130

Heavy support
Ravager x3 dark lances - 105
Ravager x3 dark lances - 105
Razorwing jetfighter, x2 dark lances, x4 monoscythe missiles, splinter rifles. -145

So the idea behind this list is super fast in your face assault with the wracks and warriors zipping around claiming objectives. The haemi goes with the 4 racks and turbo boosts up the table turn one as far as possible to drop the wwp for the 15 wyches and Lelith to emerge. The other wych units and incubi are zipping down the flanks to get into position for charges turn two. Scourges in reserve to drop down and cause carnage as soon as possible behind enemy lines. Razorwing for anti air and troop objective clearing. Jetbikes are there to provide an annoying mobile unit with a lance to cause just enough damage without being a massive threat to the oponent ( and super fast objective claiming).

they're pouring in now!

Entries are now closed for the WWP List Comp. We received 15 lists altogether, a great effort, which are indexed here in the comp's OP for ease of reference:

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t9499-list-building-competition-a-webway-portal-list-for-1850-pts

Not sure when the decision will be made and the winner announced, will check into that.

Cheers.

7ed MISSIONS - HOW TO WIN WITH MAELSTORM

So you are facing off against an Eldar list. It has:

Autarch
4x DA in a wave serpents
2x WJB
Warp Spiders
2x Warwalkers

There a few pieces of terrain in your zone to hide behind and you have first turn. The mission is maelstrom with tactical objectives. So the above list has objective secured troops and mobility - a real problem to win these missions. However, my opponent has reserved his bikes, spiders and walkers. Would you do this in a maelstorm mission?

I play this:

Bad Moon Megaboss, Da Finkin Kap, Bosspole
Snakebite Boss, Da Lucky Stikk, PK, Bosspole, Bike
Big Mek, Killsaw, KFF, Bosspole, Bike
Painboy, Bike
5 Meganobz
4x 16 Grots, Runtherder, Grot Prod  
8 Boar Bikers, Nob
5 Deffkoptas, TL Rokkits, Buzzsaw
Battlewagon, killkannon, Deff Rolla
3 Mek Gunz, Traktor Kannon, 3 Ammo Runts

Do you see the problem? I have less OS troops and although I am somewhat mobile not nearly close to my opponent's mobility. I can use the biker HQs to some degree (they can at times detach and score) but my manz/grots are going forward slowly in a tactical objective mission. I do have anti-skimmer - make no mistake of that - but how do I get them where I need them?

The trick is not wiping out your opponent. The object is to gain points. You go after units in the way of acquiring those points.  I rolled first turn which is what you want for maelstrom missions. This allows you to deploy forward and grab as many objectives as possible turn one. This is important. With Orks you do not want to reserve too much. You want your units near objectives to start turn one so that you can grab as many as possible. So you need to pay attention that you have enough units on the table to grab them. Now this does present problems. You are vulnerable to first blood. In my case some of my units are quite fragile. So objectives out in the open present a challenge. That said you want to hold any troops on objectives in your zone and likely tirbo-boost or scout to any objectives you can reach turn one.

So who goes in the BW? What moves up? Where do the HQs go? Obviously my traktors are important and will be in terrain with LoS. They will buffered somewhat with a mass of grots and meganobs but how do I play this out and have a chance at least of winning?

Two key components in 7ed. Lots of OS troops and mobility. Durability can be overcome somewhat but always play the mission.

I'll let you theorize and then I will outline what happened.

Well you have 5 mobile elements which would make it FAIRLY easy to take 2-3 objectives early going first. The enemy has more or less the same opportunity early on in his turn. Trouble is if he goes AFTER you, you have dispesed to cut off all the objectives. So if he concentrates on killing you then he will not go after objectives and if he goes after them he kills you less and is fractured. When he is fractured, he is much weaker than when he creates a firebase.

So while I cant exactly see the battle from where Im sitting it seems intuitive that he would be very much be forced to go on the offensive and fracture, just to try and get ahead in points.

There are six objectives. Less than 6 units on the board means you have no chance to get to them all and still attack as much as you'd like. He only had 4 because he was unlikely to get out of those shells early on.

This is quite close to how the battle progressed. I actually got more objectives becuase I deployed the deffkoptas of units of three and two with the big mek in the three man unit to detach when needed and grab an objective turn two. I also did not put the Meganobz in the BW - they followed the advance covered by grots with a uinit of grots in the BW instead ( I thought to get them further up table to distract and buffer the rest of the advance). I probably should have just deployed the BW empty. But with a Big Mek close by the BW I felt I could keep the grots alive and then useful. And the BW, although a rather large and tempting target can be safely ignored  - it is just mobile terrain. The killkannon never did squat all game.

Because he went second he felt it safer to reserve too many of his units. Outflanking starcannon Walkers are great but he could only hurt the outer shell of grots. It also exposed them to bikers, bosses and meganobz. He was not able to grab objectives with his WJB on turn one either. This allowed the Orks to grab an early lead. In 7ed you rarely want to reserve your fast units on tuen one. Hide them and then turbo boost those bikes onto an objective. Reserving WJB is is a 6ed holdover and my opponent conceded that he was not going to do that again. Of course we are all still grasping the finer points of 7ed so it was a learning experience.

He wanted to take out the traktors too as they downed a Wave Sepent turn one and that did not make him happy. The Orks (me) had a plan. Bait him into trying to destroy the units rather than play towards the mission and objectives. Not a bad plan but as the game progressed the Orks got weaker and the Eldar got stronger. The game came doen to attacking his autarch and trying to get warlord and an objective on the last turn. By detaching joining my Big Mek to my remaining biker mob (warboss biker and five bikers) I had a chance but failed. Barely. Still it was a very close game indeed.

Also, bear in mind that his list made it difficult to grab the warlord or slay a character. I did manage to kill a vehicle for points though. Eldar on the whole will be difficult to defeat in maelstorm. They are very well suited to the task. My opponent made mistakes. Giving up too many objectives turn one ( he should have had at least five units on the table to grab them) concentrating too much on killing my units rather than grabbing objective points ( he went after a unit once when he should have just run onto an objective instead and grabbed the point) etc.

I really felt the lack of troops in the game. At 1500 I did not have enough grots. One more squad would have made a difference - and btw, grot prods are some good too - managed to kill warp spiders with it. Problem is the guys flee like crazy. You flood the board with minions and cut off space but if you start losing units the game turns quickly. So 7ed is not transparent like 6ed. We now have to really think on what we can do to gain a pint here and there during the course of a game. I lost by three points. I had a chance to win but in the end  die rolls and luck do play some small part. No wave serpent list will easy at 1500 - I can assure you it is a nightmare match. But I was happy he fielded no swooping hawks with blind and grenade, lol.

Now my list is rather fluffy. Take it with a grain of salt. It is built to be playable and have a chance but it is not a tweaked tournament list. My opponent's list was tournament ready.

So I did learn a few things and I am going to change the list a bit. Instead of five deffkoptas I will use three koptas and buzzsaw in one unit and a lone kopta in buzzsaw in the other. I will also add one more warbiker - this gives me a mob of eleven for at least a bit more insurance. At 1850 I will flood the table with a lot more models but I'll have to slowly build up my list ot it:

==Da Bad Moon Snakebite Alliance==
Bad Moon Megaboss, Da Finkin Kap, Bosspole 115
Snakebite Boss, Da Lucky Stikk, PK, Bosspole, Bike 140
Big Mek, Killsaw, KFF, Bosspole, Bike 145
Painboy, Bike 75
8 Meganobz, Kombi-flamer 325
9 Boar Bikers, Nob, PK 197
5x 16 Grots, Runtherder, Grot Prod 290
20 Boyz, Slugga/Choppa 2 Rokkits, Nob, PK, Bosspole 160
3 Deffkoptas, TL Rokkits, Buzzsaw 115
Deffkopta, TL Rokkit, Buzzsaw 55
Battlewagon, Kannon, Deff Rolla 130
3 Mek Gunz, Traktor Kannon, 3 Ammo Runts 99
=1850=

I quite like the Grot Prod.  It makes the unit useful in a whole new way.  
 
When using Gretchen, i tended to put my leader in the unit to make them impossible to break and then moved him as needed after that turn.  Again, showing the hand, but hiding the knife by encouraging the enemy to waste shots on things that don't mattter for unless they actually plow every last gretchen, they're not going to get that Warlord.
 
Warms the heart to see 8 Meganobz in there.  So flippin good.  And this list haas 6 bike "units" it can use to snag points from pretty far away.  Good times.

I find it interesting to see who picks up on the nuances of a list and who does not. Of course J, I expected that my list would be understood by you. I took a risk in my game because my grots score. I put them in the BW as a BW upgrade, lol. Is that a wise decision? In this mission yes, in others it is foolish.

OS is nice but will grots, alone at mid table hold an objective? Not likely. In maelstrom it does not matter. You get your point but in other missions it certainly does. By moving forward I set the BW up to be exposed to side shots - AV14 front only. I left my grots hanging - but my opponent did not need to kill them as they already served their purpose. He had other priorities by then. So it was a good decision for THIS mission.

And that is the point. We need to design lists that work for both classic and maelstorm missions. Your lists J, should be studied. You always make lists that can excel regardless of mission. I try and do the same. People doubt the efficiency of walking maganobz. They do not see the larger picture within the contents of a list. They fail to see why the grot/meganob combo is so strong. They do not understand the lone BW. You do.

I have given up trying to sell my point of view too hard.  I have a blog now.  People who find what I have to say interesting or illuminating can go there and become members of the UNorthodoxy Empire.  Those who find my advice to be suspect at best can of course prove me wrong at any time they wish to try.  =)

There are a lot of RIGHT ways to do it in Warhammer 40K and exploring those possibilities are what make the game so interesting to me.  I like FINDING new ways to be successful and each one comes fraught with its own perils and pitfalls.  But if you play a difficult list a little bit and stress test its limitations, you start to see its possibilities as well and start using things better or as I like to say, you "stop asking the unit to Cure Cancer" when its really designed for Diabetes, so to speak.  When you learn to do that, you ARE better at the game.  Just are.

On the other hand, I also understand that I get many more games in than some, and so I have the luxury of testing lists.  I don't have to feel trapped by a lack of playing time into spamming ONLY the hardest core units my army can produce and hoping that they look as good on a board as they do on paper because there will be few enough chances to win for those folks.  Or for those who are not doing well financially it can be as simple as "Hey I HAVE to make the list hard core because I cant afford to explore more options".  I get that, as one who lived outta dumpsters pretty much til i was 22.  Those are legit reasons not to explore as much.  But its not a reason for them to poo poo the inarguable results.  And thats where i get a little uppity.  I REALLy dislike it when someone who hardly plays and certainly doesn't win like I do, tells me that my list is "inefficient" or "Not viable".  Says what scoreboard, exactly?

I will say this:  I feel not exploring possibilities or just not entertaining the ideas of other possibilities stunts peoples growth in the game; because it becomes ABOUT the list and NOT about you.  Think about it, which of these two statements would you rather have come to mind when people think of you:

1.  He Writes super cool lists
2.  He's a super smart General

I guess that's for everyone to decide on their own.  But I know which one I want people to say about me.

Hey everyone! I apologize for not posting in a while but I have been busy busy with relocating and starting a new job in real life...but that hasn't stopped me from playing some games lately!

As to your answer UO: For me its both! I like to make cool lists and I'm working hard to become a better general! Ultimately, my thoughts are my opinions on what I've seen, read, and played. And I like imparting what I've learned through these experiences to you guys! No doubt I am but a general in training


So this last weekend, I ended up going to home to see friends and play a bunch of 40k at a ludicrous 3000 points! I got in 2 full games at this point level, one against my friends Necrons and the other against a GK/Eldar (a very unorthodox sort of list...not very competitive).

What did I run? A lot of DE and an IK for giggles.

What did I learn despite the inherent imbalance at going so large?

Necrons are a force to contend with for DE. No kidding right? The hard part is that they will usually bring wraiths...which takes dedicated firepower to bring down...they take catacomb command barges which take dedicated work to bring down...flyers...AV13 transports...ultimately each one requires some good focusing of firepower to bring down (or some good luck!). Everything a standard necron list brings is going to be fairly tough as we just don't bring efficient ranged AT to the table. (If you say lances I will need to see how you have figured out to roll well consistently ) Wyches bring grenades but chances are with tesla and overall Necron firepower you will never make it...this is what I've found to be true, especially against a knowledgeable opponent. Poison does good work on wraiths (though generally they require a ton of shots to down most of the squad) but what if you allow your opponent to attach that command barge...good luck against that. Shooting the command barge with poison results in nothing happening as your opponent will simply have the shots bounce off the armor. We need to seriously consider how we can deal with the Necron threat.

GK? Business as usual from what I saw in general. They all drop to poison eventually. My friend allied Eldar and doesn't use them to their best abilities in my opinion, but as always Eldar remain amazing.


What about imperial knights? Simply still amazing! My first game he didn't do anything but against my friend, he stomped out Fuegan in close combat (good stomp rolls result in removal of EW characters!), then proceeded to kill a wraithknight in combat with his chainsword. At this point we called the game as all he had left was a couple pallies. If you don't take care of a IK properly it will ruin your day, I promise.

I have to say that my Gk have done quite well against DE. But then I suppose that mission plays a role and using the right psychic powers (for which DE have no defense at all) plays a part. Draigo is a beast against DE with EW as well. I also think psycannons measure up quite well in this match. I'm not sure what your opponent was playing though. And Eldar allies? Meh. I get enough WC to cast two vortex a turn if I want to without any allies.

As for IKs - yes they are downright scary no matter how you slice it. But I have a counter to IKs in Orks ...

Big Mek, 'Eavy Armour, SAG, Da Fixer Upperz 
Mek
3x 5 Burna Boyz, 3 Meks
Stompa, +2 Supa-Rokkits, Grot Riggers
- 1179 -

2 Weirboyz, Lvl 2
5x 14 Grots, Runtherd, Grot Prod
6 Tankabustas
2x Mek Gunz, 5 Lobbas, 2 Ammo Runts
- 670 -

So I have seventy grots hopefully fearless. Add in some tankabustas moving forward and you are set. I have a loaded for bear stompa that can shoot and stomp. I have a battery of ten lobbas raining down fire. I have two weirdboyz rolling sanctid (yes it is risky) daemonology or PotW. That is the plan. Those weirdboyz will be nuisance.

As to J's question - well I love making cool lists like the one above but really I would rather be known as a good strategist and player. One does not exclude the other though. I can be both.

Been working on my Dark Eldar some more. I need a couple practice games to see if its any good in this form but it looks promising in any event. THREE hammer, all with different strengths. All of them pump out a lot of high str attacks. One is fairly dangerous with its anti-personnel shooting which combaines with its melee ability to really pound on infantry. One is nigh unstoppable in close combat and can take out patking lots. One is uber fast and mobile and with some nice wound ablation.

I'll get back to everyone once its tested but it looks like increasing amounts of fun as i play it through in my head.

I have been having a lot of conversations on the Stompa in chat. The Stompa is a dakka machine fully capable of stomping in cc as well.He gives units - not models - units within 6″ fearless just to add icing on the cake - incredible. He also carries 20 models so you will pack him with a KFF foe a 5+ inv save and a bucketlosad of Meks to fix him as he advances. You will if you have any brains give him IWND with Grot Riggers as well. It was suggested to me that he could be taken down in two turns. With my build above it is unlikely but sure anything is possible.

So you now have a neigh-unkillable dealer of death. He is the big bait. You want your opponent to go after him and not the rest of your list. There are risks of course. If he does go Boom! then he, the Orks inside and most of the Orks nearby will vaporize.

Why is he not an auto-include you might ask. Well, he is expensive - very expensive. He will not win maelstorm missions on his own - he is in fact poor at gaining points. He destroys - that is all. He creates a bubble of threat. Surround him with grots and fearless tankabustas. Give him artillery support ans suddenly he exponentially more dangerous.

Also a word on weirdboy=s. For 70 points you have a level two psyker. This is some good with the Power of yhe Waaagh or Daemonology. PotW has devastating AP2 witchfires. Daemonology is niuts - hello meet my horrors, lol. They even have a force sword. Do not discount these guys lightly as support units.

Found a way to turn my Court of the Archon which normally costs $160 to build plus time and paint into a $38 deal using proxies. I'll be using some cool Snakemen I found from the Bones line. $2.79 per model and just gotta clip off a sword, add a gun and BLAM, instant Sslyth. Too cool. I did go ahead and get two GW medusae because the model really is pretty cool and there really was no proxy that looked about the same. It's just a little too unique. For Ur-Ghuls, I am using Crypt Ghouls from Vampire Counts. Also GW! So I saved a ton of money. And it'll have GW parts on it so hey!

So break down the court for me J. Are you using it as a bodyguard for your ARchon or does it get fielded as a solo unit? Is it primarily for AI or AT. It obviously has some durability and damage output. Lhaweman's for only ten points get yoiu a couple of 2+ shots. So okay for ten points. Medusae are hit and miss. They can be devastating but they can be fail also. Ur-gul is tough with a lot of attacks but you take these guys for the SSylth. I( know that. But in a vacuum these guys are only majority T3 and kabalite armour. Sure they have FNP and access to a transport.

So why are they better than the Archon/Incubi killing machine? Why are they better then the uber-tough Grotesques? How are you fielding them? What do you see as their role on tjhe table? Break it down for the rest of us TDCers, J.