A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

Got my first 7E blog up. So exciting. I have been playing it and loving it. So far so good. Malestrom of War missions are incredibly fun. Everything about 7E is better ALMOSt and certainly enough for me to really enjoy it.

Well a few rests with my GK and now it was time to let my DE loose. I decided to play a rather conservative list. The mission was cleanse and control.

Urien, farseer row, 5 grotesques, venom blade in a raider, grisly
2x 5 DA(130) in ws, sc, hf
6 Windrider bikes, 2 shuriken cannons jetseer shard
2x 5 Wracks, liquifier, raider, grisly
2x 5 Warp spiders

My opponent was a guy I had seen on Sunday playing a Nid list and I wanted to test DElDar against it. As much as I hear that Nids are not a top tier army they always seem to do well at out LGS. This game was no different.

3x flyrants 2 tl devourers, e.grubs
hive tyrant, tl devourer, scything talons, adrenal glands, e.grubs
2 tyrant guard, crushing claws, adrenal glands
2x 1 zoans
venomthrope
5x 3 ripper swarms, DS
5 genestealers, toxin sacs, broodlord, scything talons
hive crone

This game came down to transports for me. Every transport destroyed hurt my list as four of them were objective secured scoring and i needed to get into position with my list. My opponent rightly targeted the wave serpents and warp spiders first. He had a lot of dakka and rolled onslaught and warp blasts. I had a few die to stop his powers but not many. The psychic phase was owned by him with 15 WC to my 6 WC, lol. Hard to get invisibility off reliably but fortune was good on occasion ... In the end I lost 9-7 but he played really well and my list was not as optimized as it could be. DE rely on mobility and we use poison to bury MCs but I had very little in my lsit. I was relying on a grotstar ( not terrible with misfortune in play and fortune in play) and a very mobile list. My opponent had interesting deployment options and a few FMCs (four) but the list was not fast.

It is nice that skimmers are tougher now with jink because he threw a lot of dakka at them each turn and he had haywire all over his list. I relied on my WS and Spiders for AA but they were random as all heck. I did not mind jinking though. BS1 on serpents was all I expected against flyers anyway. Still in the end the four FMCs were too much to handle for my list. 7 TL devourers is a lot of dakka a turn. Especially backed by grubs and the vector strike. The wap lances were not as effective for him and again rather random success rates. I did have a chance to win but I lost a farseer turn and two and two skimmers turn one. He had first turn.

I think in 7ed going first is now an advantage. I also believe that MSU will be quite prevalent. We will see some deathstars but I think we will see more 'mini-deathstars' like beastpcks and grotstars and his HT/TG squad. The mini-stars will allow flexibility in moving HQs around ICs around and splitting up from squads.

Quote :

I think in 7ed going first is now an advantage. I also believe that MSU will be quite prevalent. We will see some deathstars but I think we will see more 'mini-deathstars' like beastpcks and grotstars and his HT/TG squad. The mini-stars will allow flexibility in moving HQs around ICs around and splitting up from squads.

Thanks for the report duck, I agree on all accounts. Ive been playing MSU taking second but they last few games ive switched to taking first.. mostly due to the number of alpha strike lists but the changes to the sequence effect this also.

I'll be flying out for some out of state games this weekend and I couldnt fit a WK and double wave serpents so I've decided to actually leave the WS's in favor of my trusty ol splinterborn venoms bikes and more spiders. Hope I can get a game in against quad flyrant to test the FMC changes!

In 6ed I thought De had great match ups vs Nids. Poison and mobility just won games. Good Nid players now bring a bunch of FMCs and stay airborne as much as possible. Crone drool cannons on transports to wreck the squads inside and E. Grubs have double duty being haywire and also a template weapons. All DE vehicles are  weak and TL-devourers will easily wreck them if you lye Nids get in range.

I had to add Eldar to my De list to have even a chance against Nids.  FMCs are the bane of DE, and now with less grounding tests, it will be even harder for DE to take them down. Crones are amazing against DE now, simply because their flamer can roast an open topped skimmer's contents and they can destroy the skimmer to boot.

Now I was playing an experienced Nid guy. He knew how to protect his walking Tyrant, he used his genestealers to disrupt, and he focused on the mission not chasing me down. In 7ed you can win a mission by just playing to it and ignoring hard to catch units. If I was tailoring for Nids I would have had reaver jtbikes with calttrops, razorwing, more disintegrators and less dark lances, incubi over grouts, etc., etc. I did not tailor.

Also without Eldar we have zero defense vs psychic assaults and buffs and debuffs. Even though he failed some rolls I was never in the ball park with him when casting or DtWing. This is not huge against Nids (at least they have no biomancy/telepathy) but some of their powers hurt plenty so grisly trophies and sybarites are needed. What powers he cast he used well and timed right.

You really have to know your enemy and not just your own list.You will lose half your battles if you don't know how your enemy deploys and plays. If I had used venoms he would have flamed them down with templates anyway - they take D6 hits from a drool cannon or electroshock grubs. He also knew which units to focus down early as he was quite familiar with standard DE builds. This is why I often play 'out-of-the-box' lists.

Definitely get a few games in against Nids. Combined arms detachments means as many as four Flyrants at 1750 - that is nasty and still battle forged with benefits. The list I played against had 13 WC (plus d6), six objective secured troops, and eight synapse sources. It had four FMCs and one MC at 1750.  Nids may not be considered top tier. That is only because they have a few bad match ups. Overall against a lot of lists they are quite strong.

Now the guy I played is actually tweaking his list and waiting to get a few models to add to it (says he will have them all soon. We discussed some changes and what could be done with the list. I suggested he spam psykers and see what results. After some back and forth he plans on playing this ...

combined arms nids

4x flyrants 2 tl devourers, e.grubs 960
6x 1 zoanthrope 300
4x 3 ripper swarms, DS 180
2x hive crone 310
void shield +2 shields 100

- 1850 -
- 20 WC + D6 - 4 OS troops - 6 FMC - 80 wounds

I will play again this time using 'gsp' my GK list to see what can be done against him. Honestly that void shield worries me as he can go into glide with his FMCs, score and assault when needed. This is what to expect now in 7ed. Lists like this will give you headaches. There are not that many models on the table but there are 16 units to deal with 10 of which can score ( well FMCs can score in glide mode too).  There are also 80+ qwounds on the table - impressive no? The list is exaggerated and truly lacks balance but it will run over you if you make any mistakes. He can just pepper you with warp blasts/lances, e grubs, drool cannons, tl devourers.

Yes I can see the tables have turned on us for fmc lists. Luckily I've played nids many times just not yet in 7th. I don't list tailor either but I don't change my army up very often other than tweaks. I will adapt my strategy however.
My usual plan is hunt troops to extinction and play the mission.. Which now is more like hunt fast scoring units while protecting my own. 7th nids would likely be similar for me, but I would add vs mass fmc's of nids I would likely start some units disembarked to present more targets and focus on using my beasts to limit their impact by bubble wrapping key units and objectives. Without plenty of dedicated anti aircraft it's not a good match that's obvious but that's the game now except for a few armies. If I encounter nids I'll post the result.

I just made this 1750 list, it might be a viable option for a All-comers list, however noted to be able to handle that flying bug thing. so here goes....

Haemonculus:  Venom Blade, Stinger Pistol

Wracks x9 (Raider DL, nightshield) (Haemon)

Kabalite warriors x10 (Raider, Nightshield, DL, Splinter racks)

Kabalite warriors x10 (Raider, Nightshield, DL, Splinter racks)

Wych x4, Hekatrix x1 (Haywire grenades) (PGL Venomblade splinter pistol HWG) (venom nightshield splinter cannon)

Wych x4, Hekatrix x1 (Haywire grenades) (PGL Venomblade splinter pistol HWG) (venom nightshield splinter cannon)


Scourges x5 (x2 HWB, x3 Shardcarbine)

Scourges x5 (x2 HWB, x3 Shardcarbine)

Scourges x5 (x2 HWB, x3 Shardcarbine)

Razorwing Fighter: Monoscyth missiles, Disintegrators, Splinter Cannon

Razorwing Fighter: Monoscyth missiles, Disintegrators, Splinter Cannon

Razorwing Fighter: Monoscyth missiles, Disintegrators, Splinter Cannon




Threw it together, something to think about. Not the best but its a starting block. Clearly no AA so maybe swap 1 or two out with DL, who knows, if only we had sideboards


sorry forgot to add the venoms on the wych squads they are DEFINITELY not walking ahaha.

So a few things I like to add to DE now
- torment launchers, grisly trophies on boats
- dissies on razorwings over lances
- crucible on haemie - wyches need venoms or need to stay on a shelf
- i miss truborn in a venom in your list- reavers w/ caltrops and blasters are the new hotness. scourges are nice models and okay but ....

I know we discussed this and you added those dissies to your RWs - I like the change. I think lances or a but schizoid on RWs.Now I'm not sure abiut the walking wyches - how do you intend to get them into cc and use their haywires? List has no focus. It has some good utility bit needs tweaking I think.

Hey rumble, interesting list. I have a few suggestions.

Go for heat lances on those scourges. You need AP1 now in order to take care of the big stuff (haywire isn't bad at all but it lacks versatility) and can do well against TEQ as well. I'm not sure I would take 3 squads of scourges either for what constitutes a suicide squad. I would consider maybe 2 max in this configuration.

Wyches need a venom/raider! Footing it isn't going to work! Drop the upgrades on the wyches except for HWG. They won't last very long most likely and I feel that the other upgrades are a waste of points.

Also not sure on a stinger pistol on the haemie...maybe consider other wargear.


I think if you drop the scourges and upgrades you can have room for the other transports.

So continuing with the discussion of the new Nids in 7ed.

60 S6 shots, 7 S7 shots, 6 S5 shots, S6 blast, S9 blast, poison(2+) blast
plus the two electroshock grubs (haywire) if needed … and you can always try some warp blast/lance if you have extra WC which is more S10 lance shots or S5 blasts.

We put the carnifexes in units of 2. This  means every single roll of Onslaught (which is the point of Zoanthropes in this list) allows you to put a Carnifex in range of your opponent's DZ possibly shooting something turn 1, and if you get Master of Ambush (you should be trying for it every game) you can infiltrate all 4 carnifexes and the exocrine if you go first, giving you a turn 1 alpha of 48 twin-linked S6 shots and 6 S7 from the exocrine.

Now looking at the list you might wonder why the zoans are not in squads of two. The problem with a single detachment and putting the zoans in squads of two is that you lose a lot of warp charge. Zoans are brotherhood of psykers. In squads of two they generate two warp charge (lvl 2 psyker) and in squads of one they generate two warp charge. So putting them in squads of two half your warp charge output.

Master of Ambush would be sweet but regardless I would go with something like this ...

Alpha Strike Nids

flyrant, 2 tl devourers, e.grubs 240
flyrant, heavy venom cannon, miasma cannon, e.grubs 250
6x1 zoanthrope 300
4x 3 ripper swarms, DS 180
3 tyranid warriors, 2 deathspitters, 1 venom cannon 110
2 dakkafex 300
2 dakkfaex 300
exocrine 170
- 1850 -
- 16 WC + D6 - 5 OS troops - 7 FMC - 100 wounds

Carnifexes are the new black for Nids. The two best units in the codex are Flyrants (which we knew) and carnifexes (nothing else has their power). Flyrants took minor hits with vector strike and swooping/gliding rules. They are still good though.

I've discussed rippers already. They are the best troops now in the codex. Nine wounds and DS for 45 pts is a steal. I back them up with warriors to keep pace with my big beasts and give 'em synapse.

Zoans are just bloody good. Lvl 2 psykers and they have 3+ inv to boot. I would be shocked to see a Nid list without them now.

We want onslaught. But we will get dominion free and warp blast/lance for sure which although not reliable are deadly.  Psychic scream/horror should be excellent against a lot of foes. The list has an awful lot of dakka turn one and great alpha strike potential. It has been pointed out to me that the alpha strike is not reliable ... but even without alpha strike ... turn two will be devastating and the psychic phase will be frightening for some armies.

The list attempts to put you between the rock and the hard spot. If you go second on tuern one your opponent has to decide to move up or castle to prevent you from firing all your guns in range. Both play to your advantage. It allows you to dictate the terms of engagement which in 40k is all win.  

So that does it for my Nid discussion. I think next up should be BA.

Darn, might have to actually get me an Exocrine now. I need to try this list.

Sorry i edited the list, they all had venoms with nightshields and splinter cannons. Let me explain it a bit.

The haemon and wracks are the wild card to be deployed where they are needed.

the warriors are obviously there to tear up infantry and fly around

the wyches will do a nice job tank busting and can hold their own in CC

The heatlances on the scourges isnt a bad idea, I would prefer not to DS them because they are versatile but i would have to play test it.

and the RZWF offer an ungodly ammount of FMC protection and AI support. Its low on AA but i was trying to make a list that could be an all comers and handle FMC spam. probably need 4 DL on the RZWF and have 1 with dissies.

the list has enough firepower to take out a few units a turn in the minimum.

So - nice changes and a decent list Rumble. You actually listen in chat   

So on to Blood Angels ... here is the thing ... shortly they will have a new codex
Until then however they have a completely cheesy combo

Mephiston, Corbulo and Land Raider ... with the new rules LRs are scoring as they are dedicated troop transports. And you can now join Meph to Corbulo. What? Yes! So take 5 ASM with a raider and turn one load Mephie and Corbulo in it. Why is this strong? Well, you will roll on Biomancy for Meph and he gets a lot of rolls. Corbulo has a 2+ FNP and reroll. He is ridiculoudly hard to kill. Only a Lascannon or melta is feared by Corbulo but Meph can tank those. Meph is a marine (small sized) with MC stats. That is very cool indeed. And the unit has Meph's majority toughness. He can be buffed to T9 as well so he is pretty much immune to ID now.

So grab Corbulo, Meph and a Libbie ( he can now be upgraded for 25 pyts to a lvl 2 psyker). Put your troops in LRs (dedicated transports with MSU troops w/ infernos) and grab an extra priest and a stormraven or two. Of course if I really wanted to be cheesy I would take one IK detachment, lol. That would be the icing on the cake.

Now they rewrote the FaQ quickly (they nerfed fast transports then reinstated the status of the SR) so you could also use a Furioso Libbie Dread in an SR (he is a lvl 2 psyker as well). With Meph, Libbie and Furioso Libbie you have enough warp charge to play a few games.

I don't think I have to write out a list. This is an extremely potent combo that will kill most units it can reach. Land Raiders are silly now in a BA list. Objective secured, fast, scoring LRs are just trouble for a lot of lists now. Good luck with them. Remeber too that at any time you can detach Corbulo from Meph and have Meph run solo if you choose to. All in all BA as poor a codex as it is now has two of the best options in 40k - Meph/Corbulo and scoring LRs.

Mephiston. As if I needed more reasons to hate him.

Let's take a quick look at where Necrons are now. With Combined Arms Detachments, Necrons can now spam the the most undercosted unit in the game. Ani Barges. Really, for 90 pts Ani Barges are sick. The second unit that makes Necs scary are Wraiths and D-Lords. Anything else in a list is filler 9we use night scythes and arcs just to get OS troops on the table and have them survive). We designed a list to test against my GK.

Necron CAD list 1850 7ed

Necron CAD list 1850 7ed

2x D-Lord, Sempiternal Weave, MSS, Warscythe 320
2x 5 Warriors, Ghost Arcs 360
2x 5 Warriors, Night Scythe 330
6 Wraiths, 3 Whip Coils  240
3 Tomb Blades, Tesla 60
6x Annihilation Barges 540

- very nasty Necron list indeed. You need to look at your DE and Eldar lists and think - can my current list handle a wall of AV13 vehicles? What do I have to stop Wraiths and D-Lords tanking wounds? Can I take this on with a beastpack list or Seer Council? I is a very tough nut to crack ... Fielding eight AV13 vehicles. just seems unfair. I played a game against this list with my GK and by turn four I had to concede - I had nothing left to threaten it with.  

The standard 5 warriors in a flyer will be at a huge advantage in the Tactical Objectives missions where you score at the end of your turn. Pick an objective anywhere on the field, flyer goes up to 36″ towards it, troops disembark 6″ and gain VPs. Before you waited until the game's end  - not now. The meta will still have problems against AV13-spam. Even meltas aren't as reliable, not when  barges are getting 4+ cover without losing much offense (thanks to teslas). Expect to see Barges and Ghost Arcs in Necron lists, lol.

Did I mention that the 13 13 11 Ghost Ark with 4HP just got a 4+ jink and the passengers can still fire at full capacity? A Ghost Ark is scoring now, so you could sit immobilized on an objective with a 4+ cover save. Did I mention that Ani Barges are a lot more durable now? You see Ani Barges and Ghost Arcs do not mind jinking. There damage output only drops slightly (25%). In four turns I managed to kill one Barge and put an HP on an Arc - killed a few warriors - yahoo.

Noticeably absent from the list is the ubiquitous chariot HQ. I like the CCB with a warlord.It can move a whopping 30" a turn. But there is too much ongoing controversy over the chariot rules and CCBs in 7ed and it is very expensive. No the chariot cannot benefit from the rider's wargear. No a chariot cannot join a unit of wraiths (which would be completely OP, btw). It cannot 'look out sir'. Players claiming that they can and half quoting rules does not make it a correct ruling. Yes CCBs are still very good and you could fit one into the list easily enough but I like the list as it stands. A CCB load out is 300 points that is a unit of wraiths and an Ani Barge. You decide what is better.

The list is simplistic. No special characters, command barges, royal courts, deathmarks ... no triarch stalkers or scoring tomb spiders. Of course any of these units are good too but do Necs need them to be most efficient now? The above list is nothing new. You would want some guass in there for AV13-14 and you have enough. However the mass tesla will do the lion's share of the work. You know what kicks 'invisibilty' up the rear end. Tesla! Bring on those invisible deathstars.

Wraiths and D Lords pretty much remain the same in 7ed as in 6ed. And that's just fine. They will still destroy a Riptide lickety split, lol.

Frankly a list like this poses problems for my own lists be it my GK or my DelDar. It is interesting that Necrons will concede the psychic phase pretty much. And yet they remain a force non-the-less. There are reasons that tournament organizers are not happy with CAD and I expect a few will limit or ban them.

ORK TEASER

I know ... the Ork codex is not out yet. But if all rumours remaon true and Stompas re allowed at tournaments this will be the cheese build ...
- As you probably know a  Stompa can move 12".
- A Stompa can carry walkers which count as ten models each so they can tansport up to three of them.
- Three of the new Morkanaughts can carry six burnas each.

So here is the chesse ...

Move your Stompa the full 12". Then disembark your Morkanoaughts the full 6". Are you getting a sense of what is going to happen?

You can now disembark your burnas which are 12 " + 12" + 6" + 6" from your board edge That puts them out your opponents DZ line guys. Roast away and then assault next turn ... if your opponent deploys and  places units halfway to their deployment line  ... well you get the idea. If you go second and your opponent moves up ... lols.

You know you want to try this don't you? Do bear in mind that many a TO will disallow these shenanigans as the rules come from Apoc and Stronghold. The 7ed rulebook does not address carrying walkers or disembarking troops from super heavies moving 12" as different from regular transports ( this seems an oversight).

Quote :

You need to look at your DE and Eldar lists and think - can my current list handle a wall of AV13 vehicles? What do I have to stop Wraiths and D-Lords tanking wounds? Can I take this on with a beastpack list or Seer Council? I think it would be very tough nut to crack ... now I could tinker and fit in 6 Ani Barges (not too hard) but I think that five should suffice, lol. I will be fielding six AV13 vehicles.

Believe me I have been and no it cant not atm, although Ive won through similar lists with 3 barges.. but killing all those things? Not likely, although I mostly commonly play 1750 so it would be -100 pts.

Im working on the evolution of my army though and if I really want to deal with that its not unfeasible even without resorting to allies.. MSU: 6 x 4 HWG trueborn- venoms, 4 x 5 HWG wyches- raiders, should tally around 1400 without doing any math and will seriously dampen those barges.. we all know how it works, they crack transports then get counter assaulted. Round it out with allies or whathaveyou.
Meanwhile even wraiths evaporate to the firepower DE can bring to bear, leaving barges and the ark and a smattering of cronites.

I just finished a series of games and came to the conclusion DE/Eldar anti infantry is still very intense but I now need better anti tank. I had some troubles with mech although twice I wiped close to 60 mechanized marines off the table and didnt lose a match.
The suncannon wraithknight was so brutal all weekend.. calgar wept.

I think that list is very very durable and really scary to some but it would be hard pressed to beat a MSU combined armes DEldar list in MoW missions. It doesnt have near the volume of units, the range or quite the speed to match.

Conversely how would that list handle imperial knights + XY allies? Honestly it wouldnt, but all this speaks more to the state of the game. There are no all comers. Its kill or be killed while everything evolves. Not complaining because I love this edition and thats after only playing 10 games in 7th. After all the doom and gloom its really an amazing ruleset.

Love the list duck btw.. I'll be facing something in that ballpark pretty soon ive heard although with CCBs and tess ark. The stompa cheese sounds strong but I feel its too slow since 50% of the time will be MoW missions.

So a new challenge is about to start. Before the official announcement of the challenge by our friendly neieghbohood Mods, I throw my hat into the ring. Of course I can be judged but I'm not eligible for the prize. So no worries there - it does not matter how good it is, lol. If I'm ranked high I'm satisfied.  Basic requirements are:

- A WWP list fo 1850 points
- Must be battle-forged
- No combined Arms detachments
- No LoW
- Eldar allies encouraged but feel free to use any  

DE CHALLENGE > ANY EXCUSES.

So here is a sample list that is just for illustration ...

WWP WraithWall

Eldrad 205
5 Spirit Seers, Spear of Teuthlas 365
6 Wraithblades 192

5 DA, Wave Serpent, Scatterlaser, Holofields 200
3x 3 Windrider Jetbikes, Shuriken Cannon 183  

Crimson Hunter 160
Crimson Hunter, Exarch, Starcannons 180

Haemonculus, Liquifier Gun, WWP 95

4 Wracks Venom, Dual Splinter Cannon, Grisly Trophy 110

6 Reaver Jetbikes, 2 Heat Lances 156

- 1850- 14 WC - 7 OS troops


The tactics and breakdown:

So the now that there is no restriction using a webway portal for our Eldar it qould seem the shadow council looks a lot better now. They pack 10 WC. Nice. I definitely take the primaris on Runes and roll for a few more good powers (renew on Eldard). Eldrad wants fortune and Telepathy as well (invisibility). Also rolling horror would be awesome.

So to begin we have a hammer unit that can really hurt in cc. So who goes through the portal? I will deploy the haemie with the wracks . I know that I'm going to have a battle focused, furious charging possible quickened squad of Wraithblades. With renew up Eldrad becomes beastly. So they go center table through the portal. I can also shove some WJB through the portal. They can front the WG wall and really distract the opponent.

Truly, everything else is there to protect the wall. We start with the Wave Serpent and Venom on the table. We hide everything out of LoS if possible then move into appropriate positions and fire off all weapons turn two. The Venom and Wave Serpent hopefully will bait the opponent into range of out hammer. Shriek, Horrify, Terrify and whatever is needed can then be unleashed. We can fire off out Hunters and Serpent and Venom and shuriken cannon WJB as well.

When making a list we look at these components to see if we have the elements for success ...

- does it have AA? Well, Hunters and Wave serpent are not bad. Eldar/DE have mediocre AA but this list lshould meet the minimum requirement.

- does it have AT? Most certainly. There are multiple units that can handle the AT duties.

- does it have AI? Indeed it does with two units that will hurt you in cc and dakka to whittle you down. Reavers have great utility as AI with AT. Spiders do both duties as well quite nicely. And then we have the ubiquitous Shadow Council with Fuegan fronting everything.

- In 7ed we need scoring units. How does the list fare. Well we have seven units that are objective secured. And then we have all the secondary scoring in an HQ and the WG. Dedicated transports score and in this list we will use that to our advantage.

- Does the list have speed, different deployment options and the ability to reposition to capture objectives for missions. Yes. HQs are quite flexible in deployment, reserves can arrive by portal or board edge ... it can mess with an opponent's plans.

- Does it have psychic defense. Certainly .. It has fourteen WC - certainly no daemon list but adequate against a lot of other lists.

- If the WWP plan goes sideways does the list still have punch? Yes. With quicken and battle focus, et all, the list still can move forward, grab objectives and compete. Obviously you want the portal to work though.

The competition will be duly advertised. In the meantime consider your list guys and win an Imperial Bastion - yes that is correct. Now no LoW, must be 1850 battle-forged. Must feature the WWP!

- above list is an illustration ... it is not eligible for the prize pool - just accolades, lol -

Well, I don't really know, if it's competitive, but I thought of a fun sounding use for the WWP.
First, I write the list, then try to explain, what I want it to do.

HQ:

Haemonculus
-Splintershard, WWP, Venomblade                                     105

Archon
-PGL, Shadowfield, Agonizer                                            135

Troops

5 Wracks
-Liquifier gun, Venom + Splintercannon                             125

5 Wracks
-Liquifier gun, Venom + Splintercannon                             125

5 Wracks
-Liquifier gun, Venom + Splintercannon                             125

Elite

4 Grotesques
-Abberation, Liquifier gun, Raider + Flickerfield                  230

4 Incubi
-Klaivex, Venom + Splintercannon                                   168

Heavy Support

Talos Painengine
-Chainflails                                                                  110


Eldar Allies

HQ

Avatar of Khaine
-Hail of fire                                                                 205

Troops

5 Ranger                                                                     60

5 Ranger                                                                     60

Elite

5 Wraithguards                                                            160

Fast Assault

Vyper
-Scatterlaser, Shurikencannon                                         70

Heavy Assault

2 Walkers
-Rocketlauncher, AA-Missiles                                          170

                                                                       total: 1848

That's the list, I thought of. Haemi is with the grots, Archon with the incubi.
All the skimmers, and the walkers are on the table, rest in reserve. The rangers can infiltrate,
if they want, or can be deployed elsewhere in cover. The wracks can move to objectives,
so could the Archon, but he should slice through some opponents. The haemi is there to deploy
the WWP and then he can take a good position, with his grots, while the splintershard is for extra protection.
Avatar, Talos and Wraithguard can then come through the portal.

I think, all the small skimmers are perfect for AI, while Raider, Avatar and the Walkers provide AV.
A little bit of AA is covered by the Walkers, so it is a bit of everything here.
For a DE-CWE-List, I  got a lot of higher T units, than usual, so it could be a surprise for standard AI-weapons.

Hey guys, sorry about the late replys but life got busy for a sec lol. I re-did the list after my last game (basically just dropping a talos for more troops).

Baron
Malys
10 warriors, SC
20 Warriors, 2 SCs, Sybarite
5 BMs, 10 Khy, 6 Razors
5 BMs, 10 Khy, 6 Razors
Talos, SC, Liq

Farseer, bike, warding, Stone, Shard, Spear
3 Jetbikes
3 Jetbikes
7 Spiders
Wraithknight

Objective secured Jetbikes are absolutely amazing now. Also I want to try out one 10 man warrior unit vs. the 2x 5 man I used to run. As long as you opponent doesn't have a ton of mobile OS units (Jetbikes, outflanking scouts in storms, Ravenguard Rhinos, etc.) I think one tougher unit will do better than 2 small ones, and the cannon lets them hang back while still contributing something.

I've still been loving the stock Wraithknight, he lost a little killing power against vehicles, but S10 shots are still good against plenty of stuff, and his main job is to advance along with the beasts in order to give your opponent target priority issues.

Brom asked about the non-fearless pack, it's definitely something you have to manage, now I'll often have Malys with them for Ld10. It's also why I always lead with the Fearless pack, it takes a very disciplined player to ignore the pack (and wraithknight) that just moved full speed at you (and will definitely be charging) in order to try and force a morale check. Although with the loss of natural pinning from barage and sniper shots (this may or may not be correct, but I heard it from a friend) only serpents pose a serious pinning threat (and they'll probably just kill me anyway).

As far as pack composition goes, the fact that I have 2 is what lets me get away with taking more Flocks. Plenty of armies can take out (or seriously beat up) one of my flocks in a turn, but I've yet to see someone kill both at once, so I can keep them cheaper. Once they get into combat there isn't as much that IDs flocks so the extra wounds really come in handy and also let me control combat resolution to a certain extent (I generally don't want my opponent fleeing on my turn, so I can put wounds onto flocks so I don't win by as much).

The talos I still like for their intended purpose, to hang back and guard my warriors, but I needed to find points for Mayls so one had to go.

I can see fliers (esp. necron ones) making a resurgence and AA might be an issue in the future, I'll adjust if and when that happens. Same thing with iKnights, right now there aren't many people with them around me (I haven't actually gotten a chance to play against any yet).


As far as how the Daemon game went. He won the roll and deployed pretty centrally. I deployed on one flank, then he gave me first turn. I shuffled around a bit but basically held still with malys in my leading pack to protect from FF. He crept closer, summoned more screamers and heralds and took some shots with Grinder autocannons. I measured and it'd be a 9" charge to his closest Grinder as long as he didn't kill 3 guys with overwatch, Malys jumped to the other pack to keep them safe from FF (and they hung back to be safe from Slash attacks, and I made the charge (so both packs were safe from both FF and slashes). During his turn he used a new 3 man Screamer unit to block me from H&Ring towards him (so I went back), summoned more stuff, but otherwise didn't have much to do. My big warriors then shot down the 3-man (yay pain token), and I charged into another of his grinders deeper into his lines while the knight shot, charged and killed the previous grinder. Nick decided to commit and charged his 3 big sceamer units into my pack and killed a lot of it (maybe 3 flocks and 2 khymera left), and tried to surround it with summoned screamers to prevent H&R (I was pretty spread out though and he killed a lot so I was still able to H&R). Characters switched to the untouched pack, and I multicharged 2 of the 8 man and 2 of the the 3 man screamer units with both packs, the knight and a Talos and killed all of it after instability. That left me a bit open to shooting and one remaining grinders flamed my big pack and killed a bunch (I should have charged one of the grinders when I multi-ed to prevent that), the other grinder failed a 2" charge through terrain to tie up my small pack. My big pack cleaned a horror unit off an objective (and got their 3rd token) and surrounded it to prevent contesting, my 20 man warriors finanlly got to the objective they had been shuffling to all game, and my jetbikes boosted to an unclaimed objective out of FF range of all but 1 herald, Knight killed another grinder then camped on the center objective (he had no horrors anywhere close by), while my small pack tied up his last big screamer unit and remaining grinder (farseer joined them). His bottom 5 he had one objective (buried in his corner with horrors on it) I had 2 objective he couldn't touch (Beasts/spiders, and 20 man), one he could contest (knight whick a boosted a herald to), and one he had to shoot my bikes off then get a unit to, he summoned 3 screamers that then boosted to slash the bikes (and be in range to claim) but only killed 2, he summoned a herald into FF range but only did 3 wounds and I passed all my saves and morale. He rolled and it ended with me up 3-1.

Thank you Bugs - Here are my thoughts on 7ed:

Where are DE now in 7ed?

- We have so many haywire options. We can handle mech well.  

- Skilled rider reavers with 3+ saves and caltrops are now the 'cheese'.

- Close combat choices which are are a great way of dealing with durable skimmers. Eldar Wave Seroents,  Necron Barges and Tau Devilfish are prime targets for us.  

- Raiders with splinter racks that ink and have their passengers fires at full BS is almost too good.

- Scoring, objective secured skimmers are just plain good in a plethora of missions.

- DE do MSU avert well and can dominate MoW missions at times. Static armies in maelstrom missions will fall to DE.

- Ravagers are still good with their S8,  ap2 lances that can that move 12" and fire but now Dissies with ink and Razorwings might even be better.  

- Splinter weaponry is still relevant with all Wraithknights, Riptides  and IKS running around.

- DE are still one of the most mobile forces and being able to add a little Eldar to mix just makes us that much stronger in 7ed. The lack of psychic powers do not hurt as that much at all.

- Eldar have hornets, WKs, Spiders and War Walkers. Look at these units to shore up our AT if you feel the need. Hornets in particular move, shoot and score. That is some good. I don't need to go into WKs and Spiders do I? Personally, I would prefer DE main so I now have too many good choices for cherry picking my Eldar allies, lol. The BIG advantage Eldar have are the best troops in the game for maelstorm - WINDRIDER bikes!

- Crucible of Malediction - okay it is randomly good but when it works ...


So is stand alone DE a top tier army? Well probably not but it THE SPOILER army of 7ed and if you draw the right match ups you can run over competition still. Most of our 6eed lists need very little tweaking in 7ed.

I must win this contest or die trying.

Brain: initializing

Brows: Furrowing

Eyes: Narrowing

Hands: clenching

I can DO THIS.

Alas! I must throw my hat into the ring. So I came at this challenge from a particular stand point: get stuff into people's faces and force them to make hard decisions.

So first things first, lets just see the list:

Quote :

Eldar Primary
Autarch (warp jump generator, fusion gun, avenger catapult)
Avatar (fast shot)

14 guardians (starcannon)
15 guardians (starcannon)
Windrider Jetbike (3 models)
Windrider Jetbike (3 models)

5 warp spiders
5 warp spiders

Wraithlord (double flamer, ghostglaive, starcannon)
Wraithlord (double flamer, ghostglaive, starcannon)
Wraithlord (double flamer, ghostglaive, starcannon)

DE Allies
2 haemies (each with WWP)

5 wyches (hwg) in raider
5 wyches (hwg) in raider

Talos (liquifier, splinter cannon)

So it is pretty obvious on part of the strategy here. Lots of reserves, reserve manipulation, multiple deployment options, monstrous creatures! So lets get into the nitty gritty of the options available.

First and foremost, the wyches and haemies are deployed together in the boats so that the can quickly get forward to deploy the wwps where you want (probably midfield left and midfield right, but can depend on lots of other factors of course such as location of objectives, enemy deployment, etc). Technically the rest of the army could reserve and arrive later on...if you think you wouldn't get tabled then this would be pretty sweet...but I know I would't feel safe with just 2 raiders and wyches on the table...even as tough as raiders have gotten and with FNP wyches.

So what else do we deploy? Well it depends on your opponents army and how much alpha strike potential it has. Another option would be to deploy the haemies with the guardians and foot it and use get support from the wyches. This adds a ton of bodies to protect the haemie as well. Ultimately, it may be better to get at least 1 of the WWPs down quickly close to your side of the table just to ensure you don't get screwed.  Other options would be to deploy the talos and/or spiders since the talos can take a beating and the spiders are quick enough to make it up table without the need for deepstriking or coming out of the portal.

Where does this leave us? Generally this leaves us with 4-5 monstrous creatures, jetbikes, and maybe the guardians. Well guess what we can now bring in our reserves starting turn 2 and with that Autarch modifer, we should be golden to control the flow of our reserves fairly reliably...especially in the making them come in department. Having this many MCs come in, midfield, can be absolutely devestating. Flamers, liquifiers, double avatar melta shots are nasty for infantry and the tank that got too close. If you get your guardians through the portals as well, you now have troops far upfield potentially and ready to use objective secured to their advantage and then let loose into infantry. Warp spiders can deep strike or position themselves to support and with the help of the autarch in one of the squads go after infantry or even tanks.


EDIT: You may be wondering why wraithlords over wraithknights? My idea is to use target saturation to ensure that I can have more scoring units that are tough and more targets to hold up more infantry. The WK just doesn't have the ranged weapons to threat blobs or the like very easily without being really expensive points wise. Flamers and starcannons will help me in the AI arena. I have lots of other AT options and the WL can still assault quite effectively.


Lets quickly go through the questions we should ask ourselves as Egorey has suggested:


-AA? Nothing truly dedicated but by using speed and warp spiders the list can handle general lists with some flyer support

-AT?  You bet! Assaulting MCs and wyches and warp spiders, and the avatar=dead tanks.

- AI?  Lots and lots of it, wraithlords are generally equipped to take out infantry, guardians will wreck infantry, etc...nothing lacking here

-Troops? I'll rephrase Egorey's question of whether there is scoring...everything in the army scores...everthing! Troops wise though is where this counts even more due to objective secured (OS). We have 6 troops (2 of them mechanized for even more potential with OS). We are looking fine here!

- Speed, different deployment options and the ability to re-position to capture objectives for missions?
For sure! It's a WWP list! Also, you can decide to not use the wwp if it isn't a good idea for some reason, and the army allows for all sorts of fast moving units, different deployment types, etc with great ease.

-Psychic defense?  This is where things get interesting...no. Super surprising since its an Eldar list! However, I don't think this is a huge problem as its already hard to counter psychic powers...unless we change the list and its purpose head to toe, just 1 psyker isn't going to do much. Crons and DE can do fine without much defense, so I don't see why this can't do the same.

********************
The idea as we can see is to apply major pressure. Get the portals set in good positions to force your opponent to think about how your reserves might arrive and you can control how your opponent plays. Masses infantry near one? Pop out the wraithlords and go to town, etc. Many people may just run 1 wwp, but I think 2+ (optimum at 2) is the way to go. This gives you redundancy, options for deployment, and just a ton of fun!

EDIT: I also need to thank the Duck for some initial input as I developed the idea for the list. I had started with WKs but with a little chatting, decided to go for more MCs, a change that has certainly improved the list!

Nice list but field the suncanon variant a few times, I promise you'll find points from there on out. It was harder to justify in 6th although still very good but now the changes to the damage chart and scoring make it an easy choice for me. Especially with the rise of meq and crons again and the changes to jink. The weapon is sheer brutality and the 5++ and blind are also very good. Also jump mc s10 is light years ahead of a 3 wound s9 slogger. I recently evaporated a eternal bike cm and his whole unit in one volley, even with jink. Not many weapons in the game can boast that. It also does serious work against rhino rush and hordes like blobs which otherwise shut down 2 shot mc's pretty well.
Just a shout out to the suncannon..

So last night J and I designed a swooping hawk list to face this ...
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t9509-dark-eldar-triple-detachment-list
Now we went very fluffy using yriel, seer, 1 five man WG with distort, wave serpent, 4 three man wjb sqyuads and 2 3 man war walker squads ... but the nine man swooping hawks were the meat of the list. it was actually less than 1850. So mocked up a battle with Betray. He was pretty sure he could handle the hawk list. He was wrong ... by turn four the amount of S6 and haywire left him with 2-3 skimmers left on the table and the Eldar still had 75% of their army.

Now the DE list charged forward turn one and the Eldar list null deployed everything but the wave serpent (behind LoS). Turn two four skimmers down, turn three seven more, turn four we estimated three more. Eldar lost a war walker squad, thew WG and Yriel. Afew hawks as well.

Why? Swooping Hawks are just amazing. No scatter deep strike, blind, hit and run, plasma, and HAYWIRE. Multi-charging transports with haywire is simply sick. But do not discount what outflanking war walkers can do either. They are just as damaging. And alweays- always take shuriken cannons on bikes ... they damage. Now the WG were inserted for a troop that had OS and for a bit of a hammer. They asre also the'hand that hides the knife'. So yoiu can remove them but need another magnet to replace them. I rethought the list and came up with this:


Autarch (laser lance,fusion gun, bnshee mask, mantle, bike)
4x 3 WJB (shuriken cannon)
8 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent (holofields, scatterlaser)
3x 7 Swooping Hawks (sunrifle, hit and run, power sword)
Wraithknight (suncannon, scattershield scatterlaser)
2x 3 War Walkers ( 2 scaterlaser/starcannons, 1 scatterlaser/missile launcher skyfire)

I'm pretty sure this list will take on any mech list and will offer problems to MEq and Teq lists too. The WK becomes the new hammer unit. There are a few TDCers who think that Swooping Hawks simply outperform  Warp Spiders in 7ed ( myself, unorthosdox, mush and others). But we needed to mock up a battle to see if it held true (we played 'till 2AM in chat).

So that is my word of wisdom for the day - try Swooping Hawlks - profit in 7ed.

Quote :

Autarch (laser lance,fusion gun, bnshee mask, mantle, bike)
4x 3 WJB (shuriken cannon)
8 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent (holofields, scatterlaser)
3x 7 Swooping Hawks (sunrifle, hit and run, power sword)
Wraithknight (suncannon, scattershield scatterlaser)
2x 3 War Walkers ( 2 scaterlaser/starcannons, 1 scatterlaser/missile launcher skyfire)

I'm pretty sure this list will take on any mech list and will offer problems to MEq and Teq lists too. The WK becomes the new hammer unit. There are a few TDCers who think that Swooping Hawks simply outperform Warp Spiders in 7ed ( myself, unorthosdox, mush and others). But we needed to mock up a battle to see if it held true (we played 'till 2AM in chat).

So that is my word of wisdom for the day - try Swooping Hawlks - profit in 7ed.

Yes! This is a list I can get behind. I call hawks 'the varsity' of eldar FA although spiders are more straight forward brute force they are nowhere near as utility. Both are gold. I think the only real limiting factor on either is your meta and of course points.
I was using 1 and then 2 units of 6 for awhile and I adore them.. but I have a few opponents who lean heavily on some problematic units/forts so as DE primary I went back to the spiders for the immediate impact of mass S7 on arrival. Of course the suncannon WK needs no introduction. Just pop, point-> erase.

Throwing my hat in the ring for the WWP list-building contest. Here goes:

Betray's WWP List:

Primary Iyanden Eldar / Allied Dark Eldar
HQs:

1 Autarch w/ Mantle of the laughing god, laser lance, banshee mask, fusion gun, jet bike - 150
4 Spiritseers - 1 with spear of Teuthlas - 295
2 Haemonculi w/ webway portals - 1 w/ liquifier gun - 180
1 Warlock - 35 points

Troops:
2 3-man wrack squads w/dual cannon venoms - 190
3 5-man wraithguard units - 480

Heavy Support:
1 3-platform vaul's wrath support batteries w/ shadow weavers - 90
1 Wraithknight(Warlord) - 240
1 Crimson Hunter w/Exarch, Marksman's Eye - 190

Ok, so the tactical breakdown of the list looks like this:

1st, Psychic powers:
2 Spiritseers roll on battle and takes Voice of Twilight(unless they roll horrify), and roll on telepathy, likely taking psychic shriek.
1 Spiritseer Rolls both rolls on Telepathy, getting psychic shriek and 2 additional powers.
1 Spiritseer Rolls both rolls on Sanctic, getting banish and 2 other powers.(Hoping for gate of infinity, but all of them are situationally useful.
Warlock rolls on runes of battle, Getting Conceal and 1 other power.


Turn 1, starting on the table will be 2 venoms hidden from LoS. Each carry a Haemonculus and 3 wracks with the WWPs. Also deployed will be the vaul's wrath support batteries in cover(2+ with conceal) with the Warlock stationed with them. The Wraithknight also starts on the table, preferably in cover, taking his rerollable warlord trait from the Iyanden suppliment, keeping any except the deny the witch one.

In reserve:
The solitaire/Autarch.
3 Units of WG, each w/ a psychic shrieking Spiritseer, 1 w/ Sanctic Spiritseer
1 Crimson Hunter

Turn 1 is all about delivering the WWPs. Placement is key. The venoms move out of cover and the embarked units disembark, placing 1 WWP as close to the center of each table half as possible while trying to stay in cover. The Wraithknight will attempt to fire at key armor units with his S10 AP2 Heavy Wraithcannons. His primary duty is to draw fire/attention and live. The shadow weavers will lay down a barrage of monofilament on any footsloggers or hordes that may be on the board turn 1. Their primary duty is horde control.

Turn 2 is when the magic happens. The autarch is in the army to ensure that all the units arrive in turn 2 once the WWPs have been placed. The typically slow wraithguard now have an effective threat range spanning a 45 inch bubble around each WWP. When placed correctly, this should basically allow them to threaten the entire table. On arrival, they will focus on taking out heavy vehicle targets or other high armor threats, each unit packing 5 S10 AP2 shots, a psychic shriek, and assorted other psychic powers.

The autarch's function on arrival will be to harrass, make surgical strikes against vehicles, make challenges, and perform hit & run's left and right with his rerollable 2+ save.

The crimson hunter arrives to deal with any aerial threats the enemy might have in store, and should the enemy be without air support, he'll lend an additional 4 shots of S8 AP2 to the anti-vehicle barrage. If the enemy is without vehicles, he can send those shots into other units, scoring precision shots on 5+ to take out VIPs(Special weapons).

The wraithknight continues to target any vehicles that are a threat, but like the crimson hunter, should he run out of vehicle targets, he will shift priority to footsloggers. With his heavy armament and 14-24" charge range, he can tie up horde mobs as well.

The venoms bring a bit of dakka for MCs and hordes, should they survive the first round.

In summary:
The basic idea of this list is to get very tough units, toting very powerful weapons into place very quickly to wipe out any vehicle threats that may exist. Once that is done, the army has plenty of firepower to deal with footsloggers and hordes using the support batteries, venoms, psychic shrieks, and hit & run tactics.