A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

I'll give it a shot.
list
hq
haenomculcus +wwp +vb =90
troops
10 wracks + 2 LG+ = 120
3 wracks +venom+ cannon = 95
Heavy
chronos =80

Eldar
HQ
autarch= 70
4 spirit seers= 280
Troops
5 scythguard 210
wave serpent+ scatter laser+ holofields=145
10 scythguard 420
wave serpent +scatter laser+ holofields=145
fast attack
6 swooping hawks= 96
6 swooping hawks= 96
total 1847
The two empty wave serpents and the haemy+ autarch laden venom are the only thing on the board to begin with. The serpents form a wall infront of the venom to prevent it from being removed first turn along with your portal. With a 3+jink and serpent shields you should be able to place the gate next turn.
Everything else comes out of the portal so they have a template weapon to wreck face when they first come out since they can't charge.
The seers roll on telepathy hoping for invisibility and if they get that early then they try for protect then go with the scythe guard out of the gate to make one mean death star. Since everything is slow in the list the hawks play the roles of going out and grabbing objectives in malstorm of war missions.

I still need to do my Webway Portal list.

On the subject of the Swooping Hawk list we kinda did jointly in the chat room, which Egorey improved upon after our "battle" with BetrayTheWorld:

In it's original incarnation null deployment worked fabulously.  I think the Null deployment did as much for the list as the list did for the list!  Also, the theme of that list was "Hawks and lots of blasts".  That was one reason to go with Yriel and also a reason to go with the WraithGuard (Templates).  Psyker defense was an added bonus of the Spirit Seer.

After the changes Egorey mentions, I feel the WraithKnight will be a victim without forcing choices on the enemy.  In our battle with BetrayTheWorld, he had to come to us in order to get shots off on our null deployed lure.  This put him in perfect position for us.

If a WraithKnight shows his face then not only does the enmy NOT have a reason to come forward (which I think BetrayTheWorld will agree was a major factor), it is probably ill advised for him to do so.

The choices placed upon the enemy are sometimes the deciding factor.  

But I know Egorey and his love of the WraithKnight, so I won't begrudge him his little pleasures.  Both lists would work well in my opinion.  One thought in making that list work better might be to deep strike the WraithKnight.  Its in theme and it accomplishes what Null deployment allows plus then the lure (Dire Avengers) would continue to be a lure.

Mod Edit: Please no double posting in the blob unless the second post adds something meaning full -ligs

Oh and also...You'll notice...  My advice here is not so unexpected.  See my sig for details.  =)

DE do not play well holding back and castled. I would suspect that regardless Betray will move forward if only to grab objectives. If he sits back castled a lot of the force can DS and most of the force has good range when arriving. And yes, J, I love the WK in this list. I figure we will mface a number of different armies and against some a Suncannon WK just wreaks face. I donèt think a WK is as easy to ignore as you do.

So, I mentioned I didn't actually intend to join the whole WWP contest. And the list I created probably isn't anything competitive in that regard, but I feel it has all the neccesary components in place aswell as a fair share of trademarked Eldar trickery to play with. I based it on three things: 1. Which models I already have. 2. Which models I intend to get and 3. Would I want to play it? Turns out the last criterium is at least fulfilled. Aside from that, I do not expect this list to hold up as well as one crafted for perfection, but I would imagine it looks like an aesthetically pleasing strike force.

Also, it made me realise how much I love Autarchs. They can take such a large assortment of equipment that it allows for fun conversion possibilities, but more importantly gives them a story. Why did they choose to have a jetbike, but also a banshee's mask and scorpion's chainsword? Why does this fair maiden walk about with a Deathspinner and Swooping Hawk wings? They're a lovely HQ to work with and I'm certainly under the impression they would make for a great piece in any Eldar force. But I digress, here follows the list I was not originally intending to post.

The List, 1850pts
Eldar Forces:
Autarch w/ Jetbike and Avenger Shuriken Catapult
Notes: Mostly taken for reserves manipulation. But really, I'd love to convert him. Autarchs are, as I mentioned, loads of fun.

2x 5 Wraithguards w/ Wraithcannons
Notes: Spawning these guys from a WWP is, from the way I see it, one of the more amusing things you can do. It just sounds like so much fun to bring Wraithcannons right in the opponent's face. Far more amusing than Fire Dragons from the way I see it.

15x Guardian defenders
Notes: I won't lie about it, these guys are both effective Anti-Infantry aswell as a somewhat medium-costing bubblewrap unit for the Wraithguard. They're a fire line, bravely marching from the WWP right where the shuriken catapults are effective! And... Well, I have a bunch of them laying about and I don't know what else to do with them.

3x 3 Windrider jetbikes w/ Shuriken Cannons
Notes: Early game capturing of control points and as a minor harass/distraction unit. They're also the perfect Venom escorts!

2x Crimson hunters
Notes: Anti-Air and just a very nice unit to have. I just... Feel this instant likeability every time I see a Crimson Hunter.

7x Warp Spiders, One of which an Exarch w/ Spinneret Rifle, Marksman's Eye.
Notes: Harassment, Elimination, distraction. Warp Spiders do all that and look fancy while prancing about the board with style and teleportation.

Dark Eldar Forces:
Haemonculus w/ WWP
Notes: That's... Just about everything he does and will ever do. I almost feel bad for the guy. But, that's the purpose he chose in life and he'll stick to it! Also, he'll be running with the Blasterborn. Always liked them you see. They grew up together, but he was the weird kid. He wanted to make Webway Portals appear while his buddies preferred blasters. Sad story, but now they're together at last, sharing a Venom as they should!

Blasterborn in Venom w/ Splinter Cannons
Notes: I just told you! They're the good ol' Blasterborn everyone loves, and the Haemonculus' best pals for life  

2x Kabalites w/ Blaster in Venom w/ Splintercannons
I like these guys. Makes the army look nice and they always perform well for me, go figure. Yeah, they're nice. I like them.

Voidraven Bomber
Notes: No comment. I like the idea of two Crimson Hunters and one Voidraven. Lovely setup. Should probably give it missiles though or I might aswell cut away 15 points elsewhere and get another Crimson hunter. Though that would ruin the whole combined forces feel!  

Afterthought:
Spending the last few days researching into Infinity (lovely wargame, totally want to try it.) I have come to realise how vast the deployment and battlefield conditions may be in a wargame. As such I won't prescribe any set strategy for this list to use. I trust you gentlemen are experienced enough to figure out how to use it yourselves or what to change to accomodate it to your playstyle. Because that wildly differs from person to person, and this just /happens/ to fit the models I want to use but currently see little use for and something I'd most likely enjoy playing. But as I mentioned, the way you use this list would be up to yourselves. Going by this logic of course, we're essentially all making the same list here, just with our own preferred and favorite (or unused) units in place! But I think that comes down to what we feel comfortable playing with.

EDIT: On another side note, I had considered building this list with two WWP's in place, an even more amusing prospect allowing for multiple angles of attack. I still have the list stored on my PC, but I deemed that a second portal was redundant with the amount of mobility offered elsewhere in the list. Especially considering the fact this would cut heavily into my points and would make for two very sad Haemonculae... Sort of. I feel this list overall should be far more efficient points- and tactics-wise than the other list. Friends don't let friends take double WWP's... At least not unless this has some interesting philosophy behind it. Or you're going for WWP redundancy to ensure it's deployment. Just a few thoughts.

Furthermore, in regards to Duck's questions:
- AA
You know I love flyers, and I really can't go without including at least some air units or anti air. They're so lovely.

- AT
Take a good, hard look. Wraithcannons, flyers with lances, blasterborn, spiders. I think this list has it's fair share of AT to work with. And quite frankly, things will go boom, this much is for certain.

- AI
Mostly the troops or "auxiliary units" as I like to call them. They fullfill both a splendid AI job aswell as being the capture caddies so to speak. But I would reckon there is certainly enough in the list to go dakka. But most importantly, the Autarch loves these guys, he has a connection to them. He used to be an auxiliary himself you know? Never forgets his roots and now proudly rides his jetbike with his avenger shuriken cannon at the ready.

- Troops
A few units indeed have objective secured and these units will serve both as front line warriors AND capture troops. I mean, the opponent will be very distracted with what is happening in his face at that moment, save for paying attention to the kabalites and windriders who are mobile enough to capture whatever needs to be captured.

- Speed
The greatest qualm I've always had is the low amount of mobility Wraithguards and Guardians have in relation to their weapons. And quite frankly, I don't like Wave Serpents all that much for some bizarre reason. A WWP solves these problems and allows me to deploy these without regrets. But not only that, the other units in the list are extremely mobile from the get-go and this allows the player to change the battlefield drastically from turn to turn.

- Psychic defense
Just like Ligs, I have elected to abandon anything psychic related. Indeed, the new psychic phase is interesting but this leads to what are usually dedicated psyker lists. And quite frankly, why battle with minds if you'd rather send a unit right at their face? I mean, we have walking undead constructs and fleshcrafting maniacs deploying portals!

Speaking of WWP armies, considering how much it takes to field them, I think I know a way GW could make WWPs more viable. Hey, even a houserule which could make them more viable. Here goes:

Any time a WWP is in play, any eldar or dark eldar unit may enter the WWP by coming into base contact with it, and declaring that they are going inside. Any unit entering a webway portal may immediately exit any other WWP that is currently in play as if they had just deployed from the other WWP. If no other WWP is in play, or if the controlling player decides not to re-deploy from an alternate WWP, units entering the WWP are placed into reserve.

Or, Alternately, for more coolness, though less likely:

Any time a WWP is in play, any eldar or dark eldar unit may enter the WWP by coming into base contact with it, and declaring that they are going inside. Any unit entering a webway portal may immediately exit any other WWP that is currently in play as if they had just deployed from the other WWP. Units redeploying in this manner follow all normal rules for coming in from reserves, except that they are able to charge if they're within range to do so. If no other WWP is in play, or if the controlling player decides not to re-deploy from an alternate WWP, units entering the WWP are placed into reserve.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Speaking of WWP armies, considering how much it takes to field them, I think I know a way GW could make WWPs more viable. Hey, even a houserule which could make them more viable. Here goes:

Any time a WWP is in play, any eldar or dark eldar unit may enter the WWP by coming into base contact with it, and declaring that they are going inside. Any unit entering a webway portal may immediately exit any other WWP that is currently in play as if they had just deployed from the other WWP. If no other WWP is in play, or if the controlling player decides not to re-deploy from an alternate WWP, units entering the WWP are placed into reserve.

Or, Alternately, for more coolness, though less likely:

Any time a WWP is in play, any eldar or dark eldar unit may enter the WWP by coming into base contact with it, and declaring that they are going inside. Any unit entering a webway portal may immediately exit any other WWP that is currently in play as if they had just deployed from the other WWP. Units redeploying in this manner follow all normal rules for coming in from reserves, except that they are able to charge if they're within range to do so. If no other WWP is in play, or if the controlling player decides not to re-deploy from an alternate WWP, units entering the WWP are placed into reserve.

I've been thinking about something similiar aswell! Now, I personally don't like house rules since they don't make the game feel as authentic, but that aside that essentially makes the WWP teleporters. I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the game "Tean Fortress 2", but it's essentially the same as a teleporter the engineer class can construct. Except in this case it would teleport entire armies across the board

But yes, fun idea but I personally think that would require a bit more thought before it could work. It would essentially make them similiar to the portals the Eldar have access to in Dawn of War II. And let me tell you, both that portal, and TF2's teleporter can win entire games due to the amount of pressure it can put on your opponent and the mobility it grants your troops.

I have one little qualm however: By the time I get my first and second WWP in place, I might aswell have crossed the battlefield with the units I would be using the WWP with. Of course, this allows the defense of two places at once, but more often than not I would imagine that they would be a bit redundant. I recommend you put a bit more thought into it first before starting to make house rules.

I would use dedicated transport rules, so just have a unit within so many inches to 'embark' into the WWP. And then immediately go into ongoing reserves so you can arrive via table edge or other WWPs. That would be pretty neat. Not sure how useful that would be but in later turns 4-7 it could be nice to be able to redeploy, especially with maelstrom like missions.

Here is my Webway Portal army.  The Aegis Defense Line sets at the middle of the board, at the 24 inch line in most cases.

In essence, the army spends round one positioning behind the cover afforded by the Aegis.  The Haemonculi steal two Venoms from reserved Kabalite Warriors and go forward to the Aegis in most cases, disembark and drop the webway portals on either end of the Aegis, more or less, for a nice spread and still close enough for support against break throughs.  Whatever the enemy deployment dictated.

The Jetbikes move up in round 1 to join the Haemonculi from behind and then in their assault phase they jump forward to protect their charges, forming a hearty wall of wounds.

In round 2, the Autarch and the Aegis increase the chances dramatically of bringing forth our Forward Ring (Warp Spiders and Scourges who defend against unwanted charges and enemy intrusions) and our Inner Ring forces (3 terrifying Monsters and the Incubi).  In this way the enemy simply cannot wound the Inner Ring without giving them cover; and the Aegis can increase this save further if the enemy disposition calls for it (in other words, if they are coming for me).  The vehicles continue to pound away at the enemy, but now with enormous firepower added from all the aforementioned forces sudden and immediate appearance.  It goes from "okay" to "ridiculous" very fast.

What we didn't kill, we charge in crushing fashion and/or shoot.  It does not matter whether the enemy attempts to kill our melee forces (which they probably cannot do entirely), nor the Outer Ring.  Either way, pain is coming.

Now we have two Wyche units with Haywire.  They are designed to fly to the flanks at maximum speed and force the enemy to shoot at them or risk losing armor.  If the enemy has no or fewer armor, the Vehicles fire while the Wyches reserve.  Kabalites more or less have the same missions.  This creates target saturation and very good saves for the Fast Skimmers moving flat out if needed but they are also quite content to form fire-support at a VERY comfortable range (Because:  night Shields).  In fact only 48" or greater weapons can hit them and even then, only if willing to commit to the job above other priorities.

The army can adapt to a long or short range enemy, can completely control the board and  has a metric ton of anti-tank.  It is also blessed with a pretty goodly amount of anti-Horde or anti-MEQ.  The list is brutish, tough and on you quickly.  Because the units are numerous (18) the list can even exchange units a little and not be the worse for wear initially.  It is in round two that we simply force the target priorities.

Anti-air is handled through movement, target denialthrough deployment and Terrain, getting caught up in melees and cover.  If forced to handle a flyer, we can shoot twin linked shots at them from the Talos or perhaps firing the Warp Spiders into them, albeit the core concept is to kill them only if you must.  If they have THAT much tied up in aircraft, then we are in a better position to wipe their ground forces.  One flyer is annoying but perhaps not enough on its own.  I think the teeter totter favors us as long as the game doesn't go 7 rounds or we don't do poorly in melee.


1850 Webway Portal army

  1 Wraithlord (Heavy) [EL], 140 pts; Flamer x2; Bright Lance x1;

  1 Talos Pain Engine (Heavy) [EL], 130; TL Liquifier Gun; Extra Close Combat Weapon x1; TL Heat Lance;

1 Talos Pain Engine (Heavy) [EL], 130; TL Liquifier Gun; Extra Close Combat Weapon x1; TL Heat Lance;

  5 Wyches, 135 pts; Haywire Grenades

     1 Venom Vehicle; Splinter Cannons (x2); Flickerfield; Night Shields;

5 Wyches, 135 pts; Haywire Grenades

1 Venom Vehicle; Splinter Cannons (x2); Flickerfield; Night Shields;

  5 Kabalite Warriors, 135 pts Blaster x1
     
1 Venom ; Splinter Cannons (x2); Flickerfield; Night Shields;

5 Kabalite Warriors, 135 pts Blaster x1

1 Venom ; Splinter Cannons (x2); Flickerfield; Night Shields;

  4 Wind Rider Jetbike Squad

  8 Incubi, 233 pts Infantry; Incubus Warsuit; Klaive)
     1 Klaivex; Demiklaives)

1 Haemonculus, 170 pts; Webway Portal x1)
+
1 Haemonculus (Webway Portal x1; Warlord)

1 Autarch (HQ) [EL], 93 pts; Eldar Jetbike; Scorpion Chainsword; Avenger Shuriken Catapult; TL Shuriken Catapults x1; The Path of Strategy

1 Aegis Defence Line, 70 pts Battlefield Debris (Defence Lines); Comms Relay)

5 Scourges, 140 pts; Shardcarbine x3; Blaster x2

7 Warp Spiders (Fast) [EL], 133 pts; Fleet; Hit & Run)

Thank goodness we have a list without WG. Thank you J. I was wondering if everyone was going to just work on my original template (meant only as an example) or come up with something a bit more original. Now we have your list and Ligs list without the ubiquitous WG or Shadow Council. Yay.

3 x haemonculus with webway portal and liquifier = 285

1 x units of 4 grotesques with liquifer, and aberration with venom blade = 165

2 x units of 7 wracks with liquifier - 160

3 x raiders with lances and flickerfields = 210


2 x 5 haywyches - 120

2 x dual cannon venoms - 130


1 x Talos with haywire blasters and liquifier - 110

1 x Talos with heat lances and chain flails - 120

1 x Talos with Splinter cannons and liquifier - 105

Total = 1405


Autarch with mantle, jetbike, fusion gun and reaper launcher - 160

2 x 3 jetbikes = 102

Crimson Hunter Exarch = 180

Total = 442


Total Total = 1847


I am terrible at making mathematical errors so please anyone feel free to check, I will keep going over it but I struggle with these things (like last time).

Basic plan is deploy the wracks and grotesque in the raiders with as much cover as possible with the grotesques given best cover and a haemonculus in each raider. Deploying as far forward as possible.

Other model on the board is the Autarch for reserve shenanigans and he is also kitted to be a lone survivor till he does his damn job, and the wyches in venoms.

Throw grotesques and one wracks as far forward as can whilst being able to jump and drop portals in first turn, turbo the other wracks into as much cover as can in an enemy weak spot to drop the portal second turn. The wyches also fly forward aggressively as needed and the like.

This gives me 2-3 portals midfield and deep in enemy lines for the rest of the army barring the crimson hunter to come on through.

The taloi are quipped to be anti infantry (splinter and liquifier), anti tank (heat lances and extra attacks to punch armour), and dual purpose (haywires and liquifier).

Jetbikes do there usual thing with objectives.


Not the best list here but I like that it makes minimal use of eldar and has lots of gribbly models

I think you are on the right track Dragon. Grotstar was my second choice for a WWP list as well but I see it played differently ...

Archon (huskblade, venom blade, soul trap, drugs, inv. etc.), Haemie(crucible, vb, liquifier), Grots (aberration, vb)
- they come out the portal
2x 12 Wyches (haywire, hekatrix, vb pgl)- one squad fronts the grotstar the other ther Taloi)
2x3 Wracks( WWP Haemie in each squad), Venom (dual SC)
- portal droppers
2x Talos (SC, liquifier)
Cronos
- these guys also fronted by wyches and wyches now have pain tokens

then add your Eldar ...

THREE portals?

No one expects three portals! The idea is the they have to guess which one I will use and become disorganised so I can eat them piecemeal.

I didn't say it was a good idea...

Just wondered if it was a typo or something from cut and pasting.

three reminds me of how Mandrakes used to deploy.

He wrote three. The problem I have is that there is no bait ... you want to get him to go after your wyches so you can strike with MCs and grotstar (show the knife hide the hand) ... and the grotstar at the very least needs an archon. But having said all that the list has potential and I commend you for taking a different and original approach.

egorey wrote:

He wrote three. The problem I have is that there is no bait ... you want to get him to go after your wyches so you can strike with MCs and grotstar (show the knife hide the hand) ... and the grotstar at the very least needs an archon. But having said all that the list has potential and I commend you for taking a different and original approach.

Now you say these things they make absolute sense, I feel I suffer in tactically applying an idea as I have had very little play time in 40k (less than 20 games ever) and don't watch as many bat reps as I probably should in between.

I'll have to mull it over and prod it a little

So lets revisit the Shadow Council list.

Eldrad 205
5 Spiritseers 350
10 Dire Avengers 130

4x 5 Dire Avengers, Wave serpent, Scatterlaser, Holofield 800
3 Windrider Jetbikes, Shuriken Cannon 61

Wraithknight, Suncannon, Scatterlaser, ScatterShield 300

14 WC - 10 OS troops

The Shadow Council wants Eldrad to get fortune of course and then wants invisibility. Psychic Shriek, Terrify and other powers are just icing on the cake. Renew for Eldrad to keep him alive is a bonus. Quicken and Battle Focus will get them placed center table by turn two and they will control a large area. Eldrad is one big pain in the *** to deal with - believe that. Even ten DA become a problem with Eldrad and Seers. You roll 14 times on telepathy and runes charts for these guys. You will get the powers you want.

But that is not why Eldar are scary in 7ed. Wave Serpent spam is silly now. There are very few lists that will take out four serpents and a WK during the course of a game. Do your math. It takes on average 22+ dark lance shots to strip three hull points off a jinking Wave Serpent. And a jinking Wave Serpent that snap shots next turn still does damage (70% effecient still). Wave Serpents are just scary. We begin to see why Eldar excel at maelstrom missions.

Now a WK can be killed to but it takes a lot of firepower again and he can get cover saves too. In this list he has battle focus, furious charge and can be renewed. And bladestorming Dire Avengers are no joke with battle focus.

The list almost plays itself. Just play the mission. Slaying Eldard will be very tough in 7ed (especially so with fortune, invisibility and renew). The Shadow Council will cause a lot of problems for a lot of lists. Anything they cannot handle a WK or Wave Serpents can handle.

Now there are still those that feel cc can outdo shooting in 7ed. Squads of daemontetes running ramshod over Eldar lists, big blobs of orks, beaststar, CC FMCs et all. I am not saying that they do not have their place in 7ed. But a mobile army that shoots still holds the advantage. The reason the Necron list I posted earlier is so tough is that scythes, barges, and wraiths are mobile, have great OS potential but most importantly have guass/tesla. This is what makes Necrons scary. You fpcus on the bait of the Wraiths and the rest of list just whittles you down. So go after the Shadow Council. The WK and Wave Serpents will whittle you down.

I fully expect to see Eldar lists with Serpent spam at the top of every competitive tournament in 7ed. The notion that Wave Serpents are expensive and therefore you have a lot less weapons (yes, I have a very elite list) does not hold water when those weapons are so difficult to remove.

Now this is NOT the ;chhesy Eldar list, BTW ...

If you wanted that you drop the WK and Shadow Council (WTF) add a Laughtarch and six Hornets and a Crimson Hunter Exarch for a turn two that is devastating. That is cheese. It will remove seven skimmers a turn.

Autarch, Jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Fusion Gun, Lance, Banshee Mask 150
4x 5 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent, TL Scatterlaser, Holofields 800
2x 3 Hornets, 2 Pulse Lasers, 1 Holofield per squad 510
Crimson Hunter, Exarch 180
3x War Walkers, Scatterlaser, Brightlance 210
- 1850 -

Wave Serpents - 4D6 + 1 S7 shots - ignore cover.
Wave Serpents - 12 S6
Hornets - 24 S8 AP2
Crimson Hunter - 4 S6 AP2
Crimson Hunter - 2 S8 AP2
War Walkers - 3 S8 AP2
War Walkers - 12 S6
Autarch - 1S8 AP1

Now there will be tournaments that frown on forgeworld hornets but do not despair. Do you want a list that still rocks but is a little less brutal turn two?

Baron Sathonyx 105
Autarch, Shard of Anaris, Fusion Gun, Laser Lance, Banshee Mask, Jetbike 150
4x 5 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent, TL Scatterlaser, Holofields 800
5 Wyches, Haywire, Raider, Disintegrators, Nightshields, Shock Prow 135
7 Shining Spears, Exarch, Star Lance, Hit and Run 200
Crimson Hunter, Exarch 180
2 War Walkers, Scatterlaser, Brightlance 140
2 Warwalkers, 2 Starcannons 140
- 1850 -

You give up some firepower in the hornets here but you do get Shining Spears and the Baron. In 7ed jink combined with stealth and skilled rider is darn good. Add fearless to the squad and hit and run and you are rocking. Of course once again the key here is the 4 Wave Serpents and now two more OS troops in the Wyches and Raider. Your opponents will want to target that Shining Spear squad but actually the outflanking War Walkers and the Wave Serpent and Raider are the real threats. If a smart opponent refuses the bait then the Spears will just zip about doing damage. It is pretty much win/win.

When looking at the list you will see ten objective secured mobile troops. The list overall is also fairly durable and resistant to quick damage. You will see a solution to fmc and flyer spam and plenty of AT as well. We know wave serpent spam is strong. But serpents have one weakness and that is being charged. So everything in the list is there to block access to the serpents and protect them. We set up targets of opportunity to take the heat of the serpents which can slowly whittle down the opponent and grab maelstorm points. The list is built with 7ed in mind. I like the list. It is a nice mixture of units that allow you reserve manipulation, units that outflank, units that can start safely on the table and units that will arrive from your table edge. We present the bait and then react with force. I will not go so far as to say it is a thinking man's list because wave serpent spam overall is not that challenging to play but this list at least has options for a few shenanigans.

Now the list is not unbeatable by any means. Haywire and multiple beastpacks could ceratinly give the list a fight. Any WS4 S4 volume attack unit is godly vs a Serpent. You need to try and diminish this list's firepower enough that he can't kill more than 10% of your army per turn while you seek contact. That is why the wave serpent list needs units to block access to the serpents and take on these types of threats early.

4 Wave Serpents is a lot.  My friend tries to play it off, but his skimmer spam is why he wins.  its no great tactical genius to create a gunline.  Seriously.  And thats what he does.  He rolls dice, looks up and says "your turn" since he doesn't even have to move anymore.  He does Guardians because frankly, he doesn't plan to get out lest forced and getting blown out is no biggee anymore.

Having said all that, Wave Spam does melt against melee, and you can wipe out 4-6 hulls midgame in one round with lists like my Night Lords and other assault armies that have the ability to GET there and who are tough enough to take just on round of shooting.  No given but if they do, its REALLY not good for Eldar

Now I DO get that this isn't likely to be the majority of armeis.  Thats really what makes Spam seem strong.  not so much that it actually is but that the enemy is so often not thinking assault.  That's a meta thing.

The crazy amount of powers in this list you propose is oppressive to say the least and it would be VERY difficult for the enemy to handle it.  i think the enemy would just have to let it do its thing and focus on everything else.  Spending too much time banging head to Brick wall sounds like a terrible use of time!

The nice part about 7th edition is that static gunlines (talking in general) are no longer necessarily king. You need to be mobile if you plan to play any part of maelstrom missions or even hybridize them into the 6th edition missions. Mobile OS troops that are tough and quick (due to mech or not) are the new king. A blob of guardsmen is good, but they have to foot it out into the table and be left vulnerable at times if they ever want to score.

So when designing your lists, keep in mind these ideas:
1. You need something quick for early game capturing and pressuring in order to grab maelstrom mission points from the start.

2. You need units that mid-end game can get to objectives and remain tough enough to hold them at all costs or be able to push your opponent away from objectives. Being a troop and having this ability is perfect as it gives you scoring redundancy via Objective Secured, though you may need to rely on other types of units for some armies.

3. You need to be able to deny your opponent objectives in closer games with superior firepower/assault/tactics.

4. ???

5. Profit

These are just some of the basic needs a list needs in order to have a good ability to play to the objectives in maelstrom missions (or any derivative thereof). You need to start scoring early and score often in order to win.

Luckily Dark Eldar have options in which to do extremely well with these concepts. First of all lets be serious...we are super quick so being mobile isn't an issue. For mid-late game capturing with tougher components, we have jinking raiders, reavers zipping around, beast packs of all shapes and sizes and the Talos to hold down areas. We also have access to Eldar allies and all the possibilities that represents.

Static gunlines are dead. This has been proven to me repeatedly in this edition. Firepower no longer trumps mobility, if it ever did.

I gotta say though I'm also pretty sick of wave serpents. They're the top nuclear weapon in the arms race. Once someone brings more than a couple of those things others are forced to do similar.
Assault is hands down the best method of dealing with them, IF you have the speed and the board control to limit their ability to just boost away. Fact is the shields were a design mistake plain and simple. They carry lists on their backs that otherwise would have no business winning anything.

Problem is there really isnt a hard counter to serpent spam without tooling almost entirely to spoil mech.
Something in the ballpark of this should do it:

HQ
baron
karandras

ELITES
4 trueborn hwg, 2 sc, raider- dc
4 trueborn hwg, 2 sc, raider- dc
4 trueborn hwg, 2 sc, raider- dc

TROOPS
5 wyches, hwg, raider- dc, tgl
5 wyches, hwg, raider- dc
5 wyches, hwg, raider- dc
3 windriders
3 windriders

FA
29 beasts, 5 bm, 24 khymera
6 swooping hawks
6 swooping hawks
6 swooping hawks

1846

Spam meet cheese n crackas

I love that list Brom. Not sure how you ally in three nFAlots though - it is not battle forged. You are tooling to beat most lists. Most. Unfortunately it has zero AA so FMC heavy lists will now hurt you. When I was designing the Eldar lists are was veryu much aware of Nid Skyblight and Flying Circus lists. Fortunately Wave Serpents can hurt both. This is really why Eldar ar still top tier. They have weapons for all occasions and it is why allying DE with Eldar makes so much sense.

Yes you pretty much have to go cc against skimmer spam. I now prefer hawks over warp spiders - Unorthodoxy and I have discussed this many a time. DE do not bring the dakka, AA, OS troops, psychic buffs that Eldar have. They do bring great cc options though. And they can spam haywire (although hawks are superior in many ways).

Thank you, its actually grown on me quite a bit. I agree on eldar as top tier it just bugs how no brainer the serpent is. Ive fielded a pair a couple times then dropped em back out again immediately.
I intentionally avoided both anti aircraft and anti psyker other than to ensure fearless. Without wave serpents I dont feel DE or Eldar do AA particularly well except by mitigating LZs and forcing crashes etc. so better to just maximize initial impact.
FMCs could potentiallly be a problem now, although the list isnt dead in the water to them by any means and I feel FMCs are nerfed pretty hard anyway, nids being the possible exception.

Edit- the list is forged. Its not allied just 2 CADs due to karandras and the pair of EJB that might have been overlooked.

Anyone seen the joint statement from NOVA and BAO? On list construction?

Ive seen the BAOs, I guess they colaborated now? Personally I dont agree with many of the choices. No more than 1 CAD being the biggest. I get that its a competitive environment but I see multiple CADs as more of a balancing factor. Eliminating them invites the same issues of 6th IMO. i.e. still doesnt stop the main culprits just hurts others.

Edit- just saw the full breakdown. And they actually reversed a few decisions from the beta version which is a little better.

2nd edit- wait am I blind or are imperial knights not allowed?

So, you want to see some different WWP challenge lists? I'll step up to that plate...

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Dark Eldar Detachment (1,449)

HQ (305)

Archon Huskblade, haywire, shadowfield, combat drugs, venom blade 145
Haemonculus Webway portal 80
Haemonculus Webway portal 80

Elite (148)

3 Trueborn Haywire grenades, 3 shredders 58
6 Mandrakes 90

Troops (532)

3 Wracks 30
Venom, 2 x SC 65
3 Wracks 30
Venom, 2 x SC 65
7 Wyches haywire grenades, 1 hekatrix with venom blade, phantasm 109
7 Wyches haywire grenades, 1 hekatrix with venom blade, phantasm 109
7 Wyches haywire grenades, 1 hekatrix with agoniser, phantasm 124

Fast Attack (244)

5 Scourges 2 heat lances 134
5 Hellions Helliarch wih phantasm 110

Heavy Support (220)

Cronos Spirit syphon, vortex, probe 110
Cronos Spirit syphon, vortex, probe 110

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Allied Detachment - Necrons! (400)

HQ (145)

Overlord Warscythe 90
Cryptek Harbinger of Destruction, Solar Pulse 55

Troops (165)

5 Necron Warriors 65
Night Scythe 100

Heavy Support (90)

Annihilation Barge 90

Total: (1849)

=======================================

Hey, I promised different, not competitive

But, I think it is more effective than it may first appear. Now that the Apocalypse is here, Necrons are actually a pretty good ally. Aside from providing some tougher options than we are used to, tesla destructors fill the multi-shot high strength weapon niche that we are lacking very effectively - and are just as good at anti-air as anti-light tank. If you wanted to get really dirty you could put some Wraiths or similar in the webway, but I couldn't bring myself to go quite that far.

The general strategy for this list begins by deploying the Necron contingent, and the two Wracks in Venoms, with Haemys attached. Everything else waits in reserves to come through the portals (or fly on, in the case of the Night Scythe). The Archon, also the warlord, joins one of the venom blade wych squads to add a bit of punch. The Necrons deploy fairly centrally, to give the Annihilation Barge good lanes of fire while hiding the troops and Overlord. The venoms deploy 12" away to either side. Turn 1, they move forwards and open the portals, giving solid board coverage between them.

When the troops come through the portals, the Cryptek is there to kill the lights, giving Night Fight for that crucial turn of being exposed (this is why the troops start hiding on the board rather than in the Night Scythe). Additionally, the wyches all have phantasms, allowing them to throw defensive grenades on the turn that they arrive, hopefully blinding some opponents. This is also the Hellions job, leaping 12" through a portal to attempt to blind a dangerous unit, and maybe put a couple of wounds on it to boot. The Scourges have a 21" threat range for melta coming through the portal, so are well placed to incapacitate a vehicle. If there are a bunch of transports but no infantry, the Trueborn throw S6 blasts and a haywire grenade to try and pop some; otherwise the shredders get straight in to thinning the enemy numbers.

The Mandrakes also come through the portal, and either team up with the Haemy who opened it, or if he's dead (probably!) lean on one of the Cronos for a pain token. They then proceed to force pinning checks. Ideally they also screen some wyches, providing a 4+ cover save with Night Fighting. Scourges and Hellions also aim to keep Wyches in cover.

The Cronos, naturally, farm pain tokens out as quickly as they can harvest them, and give them to whoever needs them most at the time.

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AA: Necrons have this covered , and if the Night Scythe survives after establishing air superiority, can fly around menacing light tanks and squads. One or two FMCs will have a hard time evading the tesla destructors, and if brought to ground can be asssaulted and locked there, but more than a couple will become hard to deal with.

AT: Better than it looks, with Necron Warriors (and the Cryptek's S8 AP2 shot) and Overlord roaming the backfield in support, and the aforementioned tesla destructors providing solid ranged support against AV12 or less. There are also four units toting haywire grenades, five if the Archon splits, and in a pinch the Mandrakes or Hellions can be S5 (with a little help from the Cronos) to punch holes in hulls. Mobile vehicles are more of a problem, since I don't have a lot that can actually chase down a fast tank, so tesla destructors focus on destroying mobile vehicles.

AI: Pretty much everything else. Will struggle against 2+ saves, as only the Archon is equipped to deal with them, and maybe the Cronos if buffed with pain. Otherwise, is not great against monstrous creatures (compared to most DE lists), but there is sufficient poison to make do.

OS: 6 Troop choices in total. Two OS Venoms to play catch the objective after dropping portals. Necron Warriors can embark on the Night Scythe mid game, and come back for turn 5+ objective snatching. Wyches may be able to snatch objectives while still in combat with non-OS units.

Anti-psyker: No matter how powerful the psyker, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style. Admittedly, until that knife gets there, this list is completely defenceless.

Speed: for a DE army, fairly low, but I think this can be mitigated by deploying portals to cover objectives. I haven't played WWP in close to a decade, so I could be misguided here, but I think it is not a massive problem, particularly with the flyer.
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So that's my answer to the WWP challenge. If nothing else, should be a bit of fun to play. There are lots of interdependencies that can go very wrong, but the day they go right will be glorious - and the look on your regular opponent's face when you suddenly drop AV13 on his face, after playing nothing but AV10 or AV11 for years...