I can't beat Space Wolves and need help/advise

First, we always play 2000 pts. and I haven't beaten him in 6 games. In that, he'll typically have 2-3 drop pods and if he has 3, then 2 carry dreadnoughts with heavy flamers or twin linked whatever. I 2 pods, 1 is dreadnought. He quit bringing a land raider cuz I blew it up the first 2 games in turn 1 or 2. (But that was all I did). He uses an Aegis defense line w/ quad cannon. Normally 1 unit of 6 Long Fangs with mix of wpns. Then several APC's (forget name) with 6 guys each that stay in the vehicle til popped. But he gets the 4+ cover save behind the Aegis Line. He tops it off with 1-2 Whirlwinds with those missiles that ignore cover or barrage with no LoS needed. I've tried multiple combinations and can't get a win. I'm fed up. lastly, he always has great dice while I'm king of throwing 1's.

What list(s) are you running? What are your tactics? It would be useful to get some idea of how these matches play out...

Unless you get specific, no one can offer specific advice.

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t7898-advise-against-space-wolves

Here's another thread on the same topic that has some advice.

1- Castle up. Deploy in a corner with empty vehicle surrounding your troops. His drop pods will have to drop outside and the dread's flamer won't be able to reach your troops.

2- Drown the quadgun and the long fangs in mass poison.

3- If the WWW doesn't get LOS, it's very likely to scatter (no bs deduction on the scatter roll). If it shows its ugly face, Dark Lance it to death. If not, rush wyches with haywire or use your mobility to get LOS with your ravager.

I tried castling multiple times. Although it reduces damage some, I still get whacked by the drop-podded dreadnought flamers that ignore the cover and the whirlwind barrage that ignores cover. Long fangs have been least of my problems as I've done as suggested with poison. He's been lucky on barrage (no LoS needed) scatter too, the only time he throws low and nails guys in center of castled infantry. By turn 2 I have 1/2 my force gone and the "fun" is gone.

Sathonyx wrote:

I tried castling multiple times. Although it reduces damage some, I still get whacked by the drop-podded dreadnought flamers that ignore the cover and the whirlwind barrage that ignores cover.

Castling means different things to different people, for a lot of players it means bunching up in a corner. But that doesn't mean you have to, especially when flamers or blast templates are involved. Here's an example from a battle report I commented on, which involved whirlwinds and drop pods. It's a very loose castle, and one that's well suited for Dark Eldar against drop pods.

Mushkilla wrote:

Here's an example of how you could have deployed your army (bare in mind pick a corner where you will get the least incoming fire from his units at home (dreadnoughts for example). If you go second you get to see him deploy first so make the most of it.

In this picture all the important vehicles are protected (in cover or by flicker fields), and it's impossible for drop pod units to get in melta range of any of them. The two vehicles that are exposed, the raiders, are in close proximity to your grotesque, anything that lands there will be charged and tied up pretty quickly. The small wych squads are still in their transports (as it's the safest place for them). The warriors and reavers can at most take 3 hits from a 5" blast, in the case of a whirlwind, that's an average of 2 wounds on the warriors, and 1.5 wounds on the reavers. In order for his metla weapons to even be in range of your ravagers/reapers they need to leave themeselves exposed to counter assault.

This would have meant you would have survived your first turn with: your grots/assault units in postion to tie up your opponents drop pod troops (learn to multi charge with grots, it's an invaluable skill), and all your ranged AT still intact.

Hope that helps.

My space Wolves opponent would maul this example. I had 2 buildings in an "L-shape" back in a corner. Flickerfield and night shields on all vehicles. Whirlwind "barrage" makes range irrelevant. Drop pods the Dreadnought up against building cover or vehicles I use to make "castle". His Dreadnought's twin linked heavy flamers remove a squad. The 2 whirlwinds' barrages wipe out a lot in the center of the castle. I usuallyt have vehicles left, but almost zero DE except for grots/wracks and even some wracks buy the farm. I'm convinced at this point there is no solution. DE is my only 40K army, so I have no options. The new LoS rules this edition stink.

Here's all I own in DE. If you can come up with a solution to beat these Space Wolves, I'll worship you as Khaine.
HQ's: 2 Archons (no court), 2 Succubus, 3 Haemonculus, Drazhar, Slicus(conversion), Sathonyx(conversion), Keradruakh(conversion)
Elites: 8 Incubi, 5 Grots, 10 Wracks, 9 Mandrakes, 20 Trueborn (specific conversions) w/5 blasters, 4 dark lance, 2 splinter cannon, 9 shard carbines.
Troops: 50 warriors (5 splinter cannon, 5 blasters, 5 dark lances); 30 Wyches w/4 hydra gauntlet, 3 razorflail, 3 shardnet w/impaler
Fast Attack: 21 Hellions, 15 Scourges (3 haywire blaster, 2 splinter cannon, 2 blaster, 2 heat lance); 12 Reavers (4 mount blasters)
Transports: 4 raiders, 2 venoms
Heavy Supt: 3 Ravagers, 2 Talos
The kick is next week, we're doing 2500 pts. More dead DE for me. The same guy has a Tau army and it took about 4 defeats to solve the Tau gun line. Once I did, I won 2 in a row. That's when he switched to his space wolves. He hates to lose. I don't care about won/loss, as long as I learn from it. But this consistent mauling is disgusting.

My next attempt is deploy on my back edge w/night shield in corner and leave DE in the vehicles.

Looking at your total collection and what you're saying is killing you - I feel like your main issue is that you are running a large number of units trying to count on cover saves to keep them alive, and he is fielding anti-cover save tech, and then on top of t you actually don't have much mech considering the point totals you are playing at.

I would try to talk him into doing a few 1500 point games every now and then. DE are at a disadvantage at anything over 2000 and at an advantage at anything under 1850. Most Space Marine armies build the other way.

I feel like you are taking a collection suited to build a list of, at most 1850...maybe 2000, and then having issues when you are losing matches that appear to be above your comfortable build amount.

Does that make sense with your experiences, or am I talking crazy over here?

It makes COMPLETE SENSE Thor665. Part of my problem too is gaming with something I like the looks of and its background, rather than effectiveness. Last game, a turn 3 surrender by me, was 1st and only time I brought all my Hellions with Sathonyx (my favorites). And yes, I'm up on the trick of Sathonyx with wracks to start and moving, giving Hellions feel no pain out of the gate. They deep struck turn 2 and by turn 3 had wiped the long fangs. It was all I killed completely. I know the bigger game we play, the more he'll load up (Ie,"I'll probably bring a 3rd whirlwind for next weeks 2500 pt game".) Lovely, why should I even bother showing up?
He's a prison guard and I'm retired from it, so I know the stress of it. I'm trying to be a friend and help him enjoy his time off, but I'm truly feeling abused at this point. I always try to build "balanced", representation of race, where he goes max cheese. I tolerate it only cuz I know the next day is a different war game where my 28 yrs special forces (before prison guard,I'm 61) helps and have realistic LoS rules in WW2(FoW).
I'd just like some build pointers with what I have to make a better game against what he always comes with (Aegis with quad manned by long fang cmdr, 6 long fangs, 2 whirlwinds, 3-4 apc's with 6 guys each, the vehicle with large bore cannon(24"range, large blast,Devastator?), 3 drop pods and 2 of those have dreadnoughts.

Wyches are the bane of existence for Drop Pod & their Dreadnaughts. Put a crew in a venom and watch those things go ka-poot xD

Have you ever thought of using reserves, I play a space wolf player often and normally put my ravagers into reserve, when they appear get to shoot and the firepower they put out hes normally so worried about where they come on he forgets his game plan. Space wolves have no interceptor so its a minimul risk and just negates the whole taking shots from meltas the turn he droppods in.

I often run 2 dissie ravagers if against drop pods, the 9 shot ap2 ruins his marine squads and as they say drop pods are all about wreathing the initial hit, if he cant hit he cant kill, at av 11 my ravagers don't worry about his storm bolters as they cant touch me if facing them, once the troops are dead you can move onto his other stuff quickly.

Even if I dark lance them up and go straight for him mech units as I pick where on my table edge they come from I can avoid a lot of his meltas etc

Sathonyx wrote:

My space Wolves opponent would maul this example.

That's because it's just that an example, for a specific Dark Eldar army against a specific Dark Angel list. The deployment tactic is transferable though. This doesn't mean you need to copy it to the letter. You need to adapt the concept to the army you are facing. That being said the key point remain the same:

-Protect your key units from flamers (if there are no meltas screen your infantry with vehicles).
-Protect your key units from melta (if there are no flamers screen your vehicles with infantry).
-Mix of flamers and melta? Focus on protecting your key units.
-Minimise the damage of incoming blast weapons.
-Concentrate your forces so you can overwhelm his (remember only half his pods come in turn 1 given you a numbers advantage).
-Prevent the drop pods landing between your ranks (drop pods can't fit in a space that's 4" or less wide).
-Minimise the incoming damage from his non drop pod forces, if you deploy second.

Sathonyx wrote:

I had 2 buildings in an "L-shape" back in a corner.

If a barrage weapon always strikes the highest level of a building/ruin under the centre of the marker. Meaning it can't hurt your models on the ground (BRB page 100). Deploying near buildings can actually prevent barrage weapons from hurting your units.

Sathonyx wrote:

Flickerfield and night shields on all vehicles. Whirlwind "barrage" makes range irrelevant.

Whirlwinds are range 48", the night shield still reduces that to 42", barrage doesn't stop night shields from working (a common misconception). They don't stop night fight from working either, so during night fight barrage weapons have a maximum range of 36".

Sathonyx wrote:

Drop pods the Dreadnought up against building cover or vehicles I use to make "castle". His Dreadnought's twin linked heavy flamers remove a squad.

Your important infantry squads are, in the very back of the castle so can't be targeted by flamers. Yes your opponent might flame a 5 man squad of warrior/wyches (especially if your having to screen against melta), but you need to take casualties to win games with Dark Eldar, the trick is loosing the units you don't need. But loosing 50pts of troops is hardly a big deal considering the dreadnought will be exposed to the brunt of your fire power next turn.

Sathonyx wrote:

The 2 whirlwinds' barrages wipe out a lot in the center of the castle.

If whirlwinds are your main threat then keep your infantry in their transports. It's only S5 (and that's the version that doesn't ignore cover), chances are it won't hurt them. Even if your infantry are in the open, if they are spread out, in lines rather than clumps and in cover they will take minimal damage. The ignore cover variant round of the whirlwind is only S4, so if a blast hit's 5 models it will kill 3, hardly game changing.

Hope that helps.

I play wolves so I can feel your pain.

It's aways nice when someone tailors their list to beat you.
That's something you have to take in consideration.

Try and deepstrike some raiders/venoms into his backfield to deal with the whirlwinds/long fangs.
Same with your scourges.

Keep moving with you remaining raiders/ravagers.
Drop the Talos,it will never make it into combat.
When deploying troops put them in the ground floor of buildings,whirlwinds are barrage so they strike the top of the ruins/building.
Have a small unit fo wyches/blood brides near by for counter assaulting the dreads that pod in.

When you destroy the heavy support of his forces then he will be in trouble.
Run some trueborn w/lances in the back for sniper duty.
Give him some bait for his pods coming in..set up support fire for when he pods in and shoot him down.

The key is long fangs/whirlwinds..kill them and then the defense line.

Warrior heavy,plain and simple and dead killy.

This is my 12th game this edition, being absent since 3rd edition, a long time. As pointed out, I haven't even gotten familiar enough with my own army rules/specifics, or the complete game rules.I just finished Thor's 3 chapter tactica artical and is TREMENDOUS help. Getting input from Denizen who also plays Space Wolves helps a ton from "enemy" perspective. Mushkilla posting all he did on specifics enlightened me a ton. To add to all here, I've read over the entire rulebook 3 times since starting this article, highlighting all pertinent to DE. Thanks guys, especially Mushkilla, Thor and Denizen, but also everyone giving advise. My next game, the 2500 pt is in 2 days. I'll post my roster beforehand for critique. Thanks to all; maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel.....but darkness is better.

OOh, don't let a Marine player talk you into anything higher than 2000 points. DE do not scale well at higher point values. 2000 is the highest I will ever go with DE. You want to play higher? Great, let me get my Grey Knights out.

Sathonyx wrote:

My next game, the 2500 pt is in 2 days.

Are you playing 2500 point games on a 6x4 foot board?

Yes, 6x4 table. Another thing, there are things we've been doing completely wrong, ie, terrain placement. We'd just done 8 terrain pieces, 4 each, no restrictions on placement...which ended up creating 2 deployment zones with all the cover and a 24 inch void "no man's land in between. We've NEVER rolled for night fight either. Those 2 things pointed out by other gaming buddies who watched our last game told me I was getting porked. He has an aegis defense line he paid for in his roster, but among the 4 "scenery pieces" he picked was a bunker, which he used as such connected to the Aegis. My other friends said it should only have counted as a big rock. He stuck his Vindicator inside a ruin, but I could see the entire vehicle with big dozer blade (so, NOT obscured), but he was claiming a 4+ cover save for it. Basically, I've learned he's been cheating my inexperienced gaming in multiple ways, which hurts since he is experienced and we've been friends a long time. This time WILL BE DIFFERENT. I already sent him an email that we'd follow the terrain placement rules and roll for mission and night fight in 2 days.

Playing 2500 points on a 6x4 board is a really bad idea.

Dark Eldar depend on mobility and positioning. With that many models you don't have space to manoeuvre let alone dance around your opponent. Completely nullifying one of the main advantages of the Dark Eldar army. No wonder you are getting slaughtered. Most games are played between 1500-1850 points. If you are new to the game your much better off practising at 1000-1500 points, there's less things to remember, and you are less likely to pick up bad habits. A lot easier to know when your friend is cheating too. Generally in 40k it's best to assume your opponent doesn't know the rules, as most of the time they don't and make stuff up as they go along.

Is there any particular reason you paying at such a high points level?

The game is supposedly balanced around 1500 points (according to the rule book). Dark Eldar definitely struggle above that points level without allies. Dark Eldar are not an army that does well when you spend points left right and centre on none cohesive units. You need a unified force were each element supports the other. Dark Eldar lists also tend to be quite lean with very little spent on superfluous upgrades. In short it's not an army where you can go, "oh that's cool I'll take one of those and one of those" and expect to have a chance of winning.

Use double FOC rules and proxing six full Beastpacks. This is pretty mean move (who does want to see six riptides?..), but i'd like to see how space puffs will deal with that.

That's not Dark Eldar way, but sometimes even we have to resort to simple brute force.

Also, Night Shields will help our vehicles to stay alive. I used to fear long fangs with 48" range. But effective range of 42" is lesser than our effective range (12"+36"). Then, my space wolf simply stopped bringing them because in every game they went down to spinter cannons before even getting chance to shoot. (that was 5E, now they can snapshot after movement, and with Divination it's as good as BS2, but if an opponent can roll a few 6's with re-rolls, i'm sure you can roll a few 5+ invulnerables.

Your friend sounds like an ass that's tailoring his list to beat you with all the ignore cover stuff. Have you tried using your hellions as a blob to protect against deep striking as it'll force the pods to come down away from important units. Have you tried chancing tactics and going on the all out balls attack, after his pods come in and kill 2 vehicles the rest go eat my dust puppies as they zoom to his deployment, and thus leaving his short ranged dreads looking confused. Sometimes going on the attack turn 1 can throw people off there game

Beast blob >>> Hellion blob. More wounds for less points.

Also, SW don't have reliable ignore cover sources other than psy-power from divination.|

Dreads aren't a threat, 5 wyches can reliably wreck them with haywire, or may be shoot a few blasters at them.

I've taken all said here into consideration. I was informed by other buddies (2 play DE) that smaller games (1500-1850) are best for DE, just like you guys said. As for the reason we're doing 2500, its for his sake to play with toys. As I stated, he's a prison guard which I'm retired from and remember the stress. Tues-Wed is his days off, so we game 11am-6pm usually. Its for his benefit, not mine. Anyway, its now game day and here's my 2500 list vs space wolves:
Archon w/ huskblade, drugs, soul trap, pgl, shadow field (170); he goes w/ 4 Grots and Haemi in a raider with sails, NS,FF
3 Haemi all have liquifier and venom blade(195)
4 grots, 1 liquifier, Aberration w/scissorhand for extra S6 attacks charging. Raider w/DL,NS,FF(260)
3 Trueborn w/2 dark lances in venom w/splinter cannon& night shield (161)
4 trueborn w/blasters in venom w/splitr cannon, NS (183)
10 warriors w/blaster, DL, Syb(for Ld) in raider w/ NS, FF (220)
10 warriors same as above + spliner racks (230)
9 Wyches w/haywire, 1 rzr flail, Hekatrix w/pgl, agonizer, raider w/sails, NS,FF (243)
5 Wracks, 1 liquifier, acothyst w/venom blade(for Ld,attacks) in raider with sails,NS,FF (160)
5 Wracks, 1 liquifier, Acothyst w/venom blade, in venom w/splinter cannon, NS (140)
3 Reavers w/Blaster (81)
3 reavers w/blaster (81)
3xRavager, all w/ 3 DL's, NS, FF (375)
Army Total = 2499
I'll let you know what happened when its over. Thanks for all the great advise guys. Even if I don't win, you ALL have made me more intelligent about DE, and thats the MOST IMPORTANT THING

I FINALLY got the win, thanks to all here. Amazing how different it was when we FOLLOWED THE RULES, step by step. We rolled the diagonal battlefield and Crusade mission. It was 2500pts, see my list above. Terrain within 2 foot squares (6x4 table) was from my left to right 1-3-3 and from his left to right 3-3-1, which left my left side of table "sparce in terrain". We ended up rolling to get 5 objectives. I felt good since I had the troops choices I did, where he only had 2 (as usual, had to bring all his big toys). I finally popped his Land Raider on turn 3 leaving his loerd with terminators on foot in his deployment zone to come get me. When all was said and done, I got first blood and 1 objective; he got one objective; the other 3 objectives were all contested. A Reaver blaster popped one of two whirlwinds in turn 3 (my best shooting round). Final score 2-1, win for me, in 2500 point game that I knew would be tough from all you guys told me. Game ended turn 5.