New to the Dark Eldar, could use help.

Ok, so I started 40k at the start of 6th, and I started with Orks. My new army, is Dark Eldar, and I've been using a friends at my store as I build my force. My problem is, that I've been getting curbstomped quite hard by a Tau/Chaos list. I was wondering, what I've been doing wrong? Also wanted to know the rules for our Raiders/Venoms, and If I've been using them right. I've been using Duke and a Archon as my HQ, plus 2 Trueborn venoms. For HS, I've been using 2 Ravagers and a Voidraven. What could I do better?

As someone who never gets replies, let me say you'll need to be less vague and make your format a little more appealing if you want good responses.

I for one am always on a phone so I'm just SoL lol.

Some details on your list and that of your opponent would be a good place to start. What specifically is causing you problems?

Honestly, depends on your tactics. Personally I favor a Blitzkrieg style fight. I strike fast and then dart away, or just move and shot from afar. Once a unit is almost completely whipped out, I strike with my Infantry. There again that is one tactic.

Another tactic is Alpha Strike. Striking hard first and leaving your opponent almost dead on the first or second turn. Works well because we use our speed.

A third tactic that can be used, is Webway. Basically dropping Webways and letting your forces swarm out of those into another person's lines.

With Tau, I would strike down their Fire Warriors first. Anything with Marker Lites must be destroyed. This gives any of them firing at you too much of an advantage. Easier rolls in my opinion is too great of an advantage. Try Piece-Mealing their army. Target one part and not all of it. Hitting that one part and as he tries to aid it, pull back and strike another.

Another thing, separate them far enough to where their supporting fire cannot work well enough in their favor. It helps keep most of your units a live.

That is what I see works, and what most people say use. When it comes to points, worry about them on turn 4 or 5. The first three worry about hurting the enemy. Again, that is what I see works and what all the tactics have told.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Some details on your list and that of your opponent would be a good place to start. What specifically is causing you problems?

Well, the Tau Player takes a Riptide, 2 Heldrakes, and 2 squads of Noise Marines. I cannot get any cover. Not to mention, he takes some Havocs? (those 2 wound termis that can swap weapons) and blows holes in my things. I take an Archon, with a Huskblade and Shadowfeild, Duke, 2 Blasterborn Venoms, 1 Trueborn Carbine raider with Duke in it for the 27 posion shots that reroll to hit and wound on a 3+. I also use 2 Ravagers, and 1 Voidraven.

JackKnife01 wrote:

Honestly, depends on your tactics. Personally I favor a Blitzkrieg style fight. I strike fast and then dart away, or just move and shot from afar. Once a unit is almost completely whipped out, I strike with my Infantry. There again that is one tactic.

Another tactic is Alpha Strike. Striking hard first and leaving your opponent almost dead on the first or second turn. Works well because we use our speed.

A third tactic that can be used, is Webway. Basically dropping Webways and letting your forces swarm out of those into another person's lines.

With Tau, I would strike down their Fire Warriors first. Anything with Marker Lites must be destroyed. This gives any of them firing at you too much of an advantage. Easier rolls in my opinion is too great of an advantage. Try Piece-Mealing their army. Target one part and not all of it. Hitting that one part and as he tries to aid it, pull back and strike another.

Another thing, separate them far enough to where their supporting fire cannot work well enough in their favor. It helps keep most of your units a live.

That is what I see works, and what most people say use. When it comes to points, worry about them on turn 4 or 5. The first three worry about hurting the enemy. Again, that is what I see works and what all the tactics have told.

Those Tau tatics would work really well, but the player just really takes the min HQ and Troop to take the Riptide.

JackKnife01 wrote:

With Tau, I would strike down their Fire Warriors first. Anything with Marker Lites must be destroyed. This gives any of them firing at you too much of an advantage. Easier rolls in my opinion is too great of an advantage. Try Piece-Mealing their army. Target one part and not all of it. Hitting that one part and as he tries to aid it, pull back and strike another.

Pathfinders have markerlights not Fire Warriors, and yes taking out markerlights does make tau shooting much more inefficient. However the player you are facing does not use markerlights, making his riptide already very inefficient. Therefore I would say ignore the riptide. He can look really scary, but he does not ignore cover and won't do much to your army. He has also a chance of wounding himself a lot if your opponent is enthousiastic with his Nova Reactor, making him an easy pain token later in the game.

Those Noise Marines and Helldrakes are therefore the main problem. I would suggest perhaps equipping one of your ravagers with disintegrators, allowing him to rip through his Noise Marines, and taking more flyers to deal with his helldrakes.

meep277 wrote:

Well, the Tau Player takes a Riptide, 2 Heldrakes, and 2 squads of Noise Marines. I cannot get any cover. Not to mention, he takes some Havocs? (those 2 wound termis that can swap weapons) and blows holes in my things. I take an Archon, with a Huskblade and Shadowfeild, Duke, 2 Blasterborn Venoms, 1 Trueborn Carbine raider with Duke in it for the 27 posion shots that reroll to hit and wound on a 3+. I also use 2 Ravagers, and 1 Voidraven.

Obliterators are the 2 wound weapon changing Chaos unit.

I find it interesting that you aren't listing the Troop selections for either army. For a Tau/CSM combo that is okay, because, hey, their troops mostly suck. For DE it is a terrible crime, because our Troops are the backbone of the army and literally some of our best units.

I also think you're probably spending too many points on HQs with both Duke and an Archon in play.

I am surprised you have much issue with the Riptide, it should be dead in about two turns between the Venoms and the Duke's ride. Remember, poison shooting will kill a Riptide just as well as it will kill Termies - and that's pretty well. Each Venom shooting at it is likely to put a wound on it - the Duke's setup is likely to put 2-3 wounds on it and that's without the blast pistol. That means, with your 3 Venoms and the Duke you can probably do 5.6-6.6 wounds within 2 turns (2x shot from each Venom and 1x shot from Duke's boat). That is one very dead Riptide. If he doesn't put up his Nova Shield it's also still worth it to pop Blasters and Lances into him to speed the job along (killing him in one round is a big plus), though if he has the shield up and/or still has drones I would probably fire those elsewhere.

I would definitely make it a goal to shoot up the Riptide pretty early since I'm guessing he's packing an ion cannon and it would be nice to be rid of that. If he's not packing an Ion Cannon than I advocate hanging back a bit to draw him out to you and executing him away from the rest of his army.

A squad of Wracks could also do the job pretty well themselves.

Secondary target is Oblits - that is a good group for your Archon to go after, as he can kill them pretty well in assault and they're a pain to kill via shooting unless you have a lot of blasters and lances to use shooting them up. Even just tossing some Wyches at them to lock them into assault. The Wyches may or may not win, but will unquestionably prevent them from shooting most of the game.

Noise Marines are pretty good, their only weakness is that they are priced appropriately for what they do and therefore are hard to spam much of. In a perfect world you'd like to be able to be in places where they are out of range of your army, but it is not always a perfect world. If you have to be in range of them then just focusing fire on a squad of them till they're gone is best, even one of them is pretty capable of blasting a DE vehicle apart, and that is no worse than when 6 of them blast a vehicle apart, so make sure not to leave lone Noise Marines wandering around. Remember that if they are in cover that your regular splinter weaponry kills them pretty much just as well as a blaster does.

The best way to mess with Drakes i to manage to stay in your vehicles, our Flicker save and AV 10 is actually really pretty good at blunting the damage output of those things. Definitely focus the Voidraven on them above any other target as that is literally all the Voidraven is really good for, popping enemy flyers. Try to work your range against them as best you can - also, remember that a bit of movement can often take you away from the threat radius of a Drake, sometimes the best way to deal with an enemy flyer is to avoid needing to deal with it, and Drakes are super tough, so it's nice when you can avoid them.

I wouldn't mind seeing your list and hearing a bit about what you have them do, and also about what specifically kills you.

Another question I would ask is how many pieces of line of site blocking terrain do you guys play with. If you have tall buildings you can hide behind it doesn't matter if cover is ignored, because he can't see you to shoot you. If you guys play on a table that looks like gently rolling plains with a few low hills and rows of shrubbery then it gets harder and is also a board that favors a Tau/Oblit build, so you may wish to try to arrange for some different board layouts now and then to see how that effects things.

Elzadar wrote:

However the player you are facing does not use markerlights, making his riptide already very inefficient.

Depends what he's equipped with, really. Also, with Pathfinders being a FA slot, he could very well be fielding them in any case.

Elzadar wrote:

Therefore I would say ignore the riptide.

I would disagree with this. Even at BS 3, the range and number of shots of the ion cannon is an issue, and if he's going with the Burst Cannon than the BS 3 really doesn't matter at all when shooting at us, as all he needs is 2-3 hits anyway, and will probably manage 3-5 and that's not even counting secondary systems. I play Orks as another of my main armies and I know one thing; weight of fire is an accuracy all its own.

Elzadar wrote:

He has also a chance of wounding himself a lot if your opponent is enthousiastic with his Nova Reactor, making him an easy pain token later in the game.

Statistically if you constantly use a Nova Reactor every turn, and the game goes 6 rounds, you'll take about 2 wounds from it. I do not think it's wise to count on that, because the only reason for a Tau player to *not* use the reactor is if his Riptide is already pretty wounded, and it will only get wounded if you start shooting it up, especially if he has some Drones in the mix.

Elzadar wrote:

Those Noise Marines and Helldrakes are therefore the main problem.

I actually don't disagree with this. I do consider the Noise Marines actually the primary threat of the list, as they are most capable of inflicting mass damage.

Elzadar wrote:

I would suggest perhaps equipping one of your ravagers with disintegrators, allowing him to rip through his Noise Marines, and taking more flyers to deal with his helldrakes.

I disagree with this though. Lances are a superior option to Dissies in all things that matter, and you don't need Dissies to kill Noise Marines in any case. Dissies are good at killing Termies, that is all they are good at. Noise Marines are basic MEQ with really good guns - you kill them with poison and assault and, if needed, Blasters and Lances that lack better target options.

I also wouldn't suggest going the dueling flyers route, as this is again taking a hyper specialized unit. There is a reason Heldrakes are good, and that is because they are very strong versus multiple enemy units. Our flyers are both substandard because they are only really good versus very specific enemy units, and I would not advocate taking away points from the army to bring specialized tools to kill specific models - bring stuff that is good at generically killing things, and let the dice sort out the rest.

Thor665 wrote:

I find it interesting that you aren't listing the Troop selections for either army. For a Tau/CSM combo that is okay, because, hey, their troops mostly suck.

Noise marines can be troops.

Thor665 wrote:

Elzadar wrote:

However the player you are facing does not use markerlights, making his riptide already very inefficient.

Depends what he's equipped with, really. Also, with Pathfinders being a FA slot, he could very well be fielding them in any case.

I assumed from what he was saying that he only takes the minimum troops, and hq and the riptide, therefore not markerlights.

Thor665 wrote:

Elzadar wrote:

Therefore I would say ignore the riptide.

I would disagree with this. Even at BS 3, the range and number of shots of the ion cannon is an issue, and if he's going with the Burst Cannon than the BS 3 really doesn't matter at all when shooting at us, as all he needs is 2-3 hits anyway, and will probably manage 3-5 and that's not even counting secondary systems. I play Orks as another of my main armies and I know one thing; weight of fire is an accuracy all its own.

It is extremely unlikely that he uses the burst cannon, seeing how most tau players despise it, and the main purpose of the Riptide is to draw fire. Therefore shooting at it will only make the unit more effective. Plus seeing how the Riptide becomes weaker as the game goes on, I would ignore him for at least the first few turns.

Thor665 wrote:

Elzadar wrote:

I would suggest perhaps equipping one of your ravagers with disintegrators, allowing him to rip through his Noise Marines, and taking more flyers to deal with his helldrakes.

I disagree with this though. Lances are a superior option to Dissies in all things that matter, and you don't need Dissies to kill Noise Marines in any case. Dissies are good at killing Termies, that is all they are good at. Noise Marines are basic MEQ with really good guns - you kill them with poison and assault and, if needed, Blasters and Lances that lack better target options.

Now that I know he uses obliterators rather than havocs then yes, stick with darklight weaponry to insta-kill them.

Controversially, I'm going to disagree on the darklight thing. Against this particular army I would be spamming as many disintegrators as possible. The rate of fire and AP2 makes them effective against pretty much everything in his army. If you also bring Eldar allies, a Jetseer to twin-link two dissie ravagers would be quite scary.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Controversially, I'm going to disagree on the darklight thing. Against this particular army I would be spamming as many disintegrators as possible. The rate of fire and AP2 makes them effective against pretty much everything in his army. If you also bring Eldar allies, a Jetseer to twin-link two dissie ravagers would be quite scary.

I was actually considering bringing along Eldar allies, because they look really cool. I figure a Farseer on a jetbike would work? Also, question about the rules. In a Raider, if I move 12"in, can the 9 trueborn inside fire?

meep277 wrote:

Also, question about the rules. In a Raider, if I move 12"in, can the 9 trueborn inside fire?

Yes but they can only snapfire as the vehicle has moved more than 6".

Elzadar wrote:

Noise marines can be troops.

That is true, regardless, my point still holds.

Elzadar wrote:

I assumed from what he was saying that he only takes the minimum troops, and hq and the riptide, therefore not markerlights.

That assumption may be true.

Elzadar wrote:

It is extremely unlikely that he uses the burst cannon, seeing how most tau players despise it, and the main purpose of the Riptide is to draw fire. Therefore shooting at it will only make the unit more effective. Plus seeing how the Riptide becomes weaker as the game goes on, I would ignore him for at least the first few turns.

I guess people play Riptides differently where I play. Around here Riptides are meant to draw fire, but they do so by being giant fire bases that blast apart enemies that don't deal with them. I also don't know what else that Chaos force has, but the range on the Ion Cannon does seem to make it a needed threat to remove as, BS 3 or no, that is a dead vehicle every turn pretty much.

Elzadar wrote:

Now that I know he uses obliterators rather than havocs then yes, stick with darklight weaponry to insta-kill them.

Yeah, though many do take MoN just for that issue, but it's still a solid tool against Oblits, who are a solid threat for DE.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Controversially, I'm going to disagree on the darklight thing. Against this particular army I would be spamming as many disintegrators as possible. The rate of fire and AP2 makes them effective against pretty much everything in his army. If you also bring Eldar allies, a Jetseer to twin-link two dissie ravagers would be quite scary.

I disagree with your disagreement unless you're just talking about specifically building against this build. I will agree that versus specific enemy builds the Dissie can be better, but in general and on a take all comers build concept the lance/blaster is markedly superior.

Thor665 wrote:

]I guess people play Riptides differently where I play. Around here Riptides are meant to draw fire, but they do so by being giant fire bases that blast apart enemies that don't deal with them. I also don't know what else that Chaos force has, but the range on the Ion Cannon does seem to make it a needed threat to remove as, BS 3 or no, that is a dead vehicle every turn pretty much.

I agree that it is a threat to our vehicles, but then again what isn't?

The key point here is the fact that he does not ignore cover, while the rest of the opponent's army does. Therefore I would take the other units as a priority.

I think by "rest" we are talking Noise Marines and Heldrakes, unless there is some other "rest" for CSM that ignores cover or unless he has markerlights in which case the Riptide remains an issue.

Since the Heldrakes won't show up for at least one turn anyway, and it's possible to kill the Riptide in 2, and it's also possible to play range shenanigans with Noise Marines, i still support targeting the Riptide for early death. I dunno, if the OP finds that the Riptide is not doing much damage to him in these losses then, by all means, ignore it. I just don't expect that to be the case.

Thor665 wrote:

I think by "rest" we are talking Noise Marines and Heldrakes, unless there is some other "rest" for CSM that ignores cover or unless he has markerlights in which case the Riptide remains an issue.

Since the Heldrakes won't show up for at least one turn anyway, and it's possible to kill the Riptide in 2, and it's also possible to play range shenanigans with Noise Marines, i still support targeting the Riptide for early death. I dunno, if the OP finds that the Riptide is not doing much damage to him in these losses then, by all means, ignore it. I just don't expect that to be the case.

Actually, it does absolutely ridiculous amounts of damage.

Then knock it out in the first two turns, then you can target the Hell Drake and the Noise Marines a bit more freely.

JackKnife01 wrote:

Then knock it out in the first two turns, then you can target the Hell Drake and the Noise Marines a bit more freely.

I might start doing that, my plan is to drive my Blasterborn as close as possible turn 1, then zap it to death turn 2

I suppose if worst comes to worst you could lock it in close combat like that. At least for a turn or two.

Thor665 wrote:

Count Adhemar wrote:

Controversially, I'm going to disagree on the darklight thing. Against this particular army I would be spamming as many disintegrators as possible. The rate of fire and AP2 makes them effective against pretty much everything in his army. If you also bring Eldar allies, a Jetseer to twin-link two dissie ravagers would be quite scary.

I disagree with your disagreement unless you're just talking about specifically building against this build. I will agree that versus specific enemy builds the Dissie can be better, but in general and on a take all comers build concept the lance/blaster is markedly superior.

For an all comers list I'd agree but the OP says he's having trouble with a specific opponent so I'm simply suggesting something I feel would work well in that situation. If you're playing against the same list over and over I don't really see a problem tailoring your list to that opponent. But then, outside of occasional tournaments I rarely play the same list twice.

meep277 wrote:

Well, the Tau Player takes a Riptide, 2 Heldrakes, and 2 squads of Noise Marines. I cannot get any cover. Not to mention, he takes some Havocs? (those 2 wound termis that can swap weapons) and blows holes in my things. I take an Archon, with a Huskblade and Shadowfeild, Duke, 2 Blasterborn Venoms, 1 Trueborn Carbine raider with Duke in it for the 27 posion shots that reroll to hit and wound on a 3+. I also use 2 Ravagers, and 1 Voidraven.

The Duke's boat with all the poison is should be your opponents target no.1. Take those off yor list so you are not so far behind with the army lists.

Eldar allies help a lot with Flyers and other stuff too.

Thor665 wrote:

meep277 wrote:

Well, the Tau Player takes a Riptide, 2 Heldrakes, and 2 squads of Noise Marines. I cannot get any cover. Not to mention, he takes some Havocs? (those 2 wound termis that can swap weapons) and blows holes in my things. I take an Archon, with a Huskblade and Shadowfeild, Duke, 2 Blasterborn Venoms, 1 Trueborn Carbine raider with Duke in it for the 27 posion shots that reroll to hit and wound on a 3+. I also use 2 Ravagers, and 1 Voidraven.

Obliterators are the 2 wound weapon changing Chaos unit.

I am surprised you have much issue with the Riptide, it should be dead in about two turns between the Venoms and the Duke's ride. Remember, poison shooting will kill a Riptide just as well as it will kill Termies - and that's pretty well. Each Venom shooting at it is likely to put a wound on it - the Duke's setup is likely to put 2-3 wounds on it and that's without the blast pistol. That means, with your 3 Venoms and the Duke you can probably do 5.6-6.6 wounds within 2 turns (2x shot from each Venom and 1x shot from Duke's boat). That is one very dead Riptide. If he doesn't put up his Nova Shield it's also still worth it to pop Blasters and Lances into him to speed the job along (killing him in one round is a big plus), though if he has the shield up and/or still has drones I would probably fire those elsewhere.

I'm surprised that you think this is even a remotely viable solution, and your maths is just plain wrong. Each venom gets 12 shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds. Across 3 venoms, that's 12 wounds, statistically two failed saves. And the OP has stated he's only running 2 venoms, so that's 1.3 unsaved wounds. The duke's setup won't get anywhere near it as you'd need to be within 30" to get shots on it on turn 1 (12" move plus 18" off the carbines) and those would only be snap-firing; there's no way they'd be in range to be firing at full effect until turn 2 minimum, at which point they'll almost certainly have had their ride shot from under them. And none of this takes into account the potential for the riptide to loiter out of range, or if it has drones etc to protect it, or if it has FnP. Every time I've tried to kill a riptide with poisoned shooting because "it's the most effective way to do it", I've barely left a scratch. You're better off ignoring it as it can only screw with one thing a turn.

I think that if you want to be done with the thing for a few turns at least, try and get it into hand to hand with either wracks or wyches. Piece meal the rest of his army, then focus fire and bring that big boy down.

Wracks are the better option of those two, IMO, as they hurt it on 4s and get a 5+ FnP (unless it smashes, in which case damage output is minimal), whereas wyches hurt it on 6s and get a 4+ dodge (don't think they'd get FnP as IIRC the riptide is S6, if it's only S5 feel free to ignore that). Basically they'll tarpit for roughly the equivalent length of time but the wracks actually have half a chance of killing the thing.

Also, if I may put in some anecdotal evidence, I've killed more riptides with my archon's huskblade than I have with shooting.