Succubus: The cheapest murder engine that money can buy.

So I've been thinking rather hard on our HQ's lately.

Expensive balls to the wall archons. Cheap shooty archons. Haemonculi old and young with wargear that ranges from useless, to situational, to useful.

And I think I've settled on it. The lowly succubus. For 75 points with a venom blade and haywire grenades, you get an HQ that hits everything on a three and wounds everything on a two. She doesn't get the defensive upgrades of an archon, but she does get a 4++ invul in melee combat. An archon has to pay anywhere between 10 - 30 points for something similiar. She also comes stock with combat drugs, which will almost always be useful. say what you want about +1 weapon skill. WS 9 will make challenges a breeze, unless you're silly enough to challenge your opponents HQ.

So anyway, I've been trying to think of the best unit to field her with, and I'd like input. See, with that load-out she can literally fight anything somewhat effectively. I'd avoid terminators of course, but if up against a wall... it's there.

So far I'm leaning towards grotesques. The unit suddenly becomes a hammer and avil in and of itself. The succubus is fragile, they are not, and I could take an aberration to accept challenges I think she may not be able to handle. On the plus side, the grots still have an effective enough strength to take out vehicles, especially if the succubus rolls a pain token for drugs. I worry about the lack of a PGL though.

I would think grots x 4 in a raider would be the best way to run her. I would probably give the aberration a liquifier to soften up the target unit first to try and give yourself the best chance of making sure you get a pain token if you're sending this unit in solo. Also make sure you give the raider aethersails to get in their face ASAP. Hope this helps.

I was thinking about the same question just 5 minutes ago! Same stuff: running my grots with an Archon (shadow field + venom blade) or the Succubus you described?

Because the Archon is 20 points more expensive, i would have to change the 6 Blasters on the two Reaver squads for 6 Heat Lances, so its kind of complicated for me...

I see all your arguments, I agree with all of them, except the combat drugs, which I think of as most likely useless combined with a venom blade, i.e. reroll wounds, +1 str, 3d6 run, +1 WS (except in a challenge).

What ultimatively shifts my choice towards the Archon is the LD10! You most likely are going to do in a game is to boost your grots + HQ up to your opponents face. He will shoot your raider down, and that means you have to take a pinning check. Having LD 10 rather than LD9 decreases your chance of failing that from 16,7% down to 8,3%. That threat is halved. I really dont want my grots+hq lying face down in the dirt in front of my enemy for at least 1 turn.

Further considerations are that the shadowfield allows you to tank instant death hits from MCs or psychers. Declining a challenge with the Archon in such combats is better than losing 2-3 grotesques, which would most likely mean that you would lose combat by 9 or so and run...

The Archon has plasma grenades as well, and i think the PGL is not necesseray for grotesques. The HWG would indeed be a nice upgrade for that Archon, but in my list unachieveable


Hope that helps to get the discussion running, good points so far  

Expletive Deleted wrote:

For 75 points with a venom blade and haywire grenades, you get an HQ that hits everything on a three and wounds everything on a two.

With a bit of luck, you roll a +1S for the Succubus drugs, meaning you can reroll the dice rolls of 1,
when wounding your enemy, even if they have T4. Which isn't half bad, because of no AP.

I run my Ariel (yes, it`s her name) with Hydras and hayware. Very cheap and usefull. Plenty of attacks with her In helps me a lot. But only when she fight with human-type enemyes, like marines etc.

I usually field Succubus with venom blade and agonizer, im mostly chopping through zombies and plague marines, so ago let me take down marines and VB to easly kill those zombies.
Most of the time i put her in a raider with 9x wyches and hekatrix with ago, so i can easly win challenges with plague sergants, but i also though of putting her with 4 Blood Brides with pair of razorflails, syren with ago and PGL into venom.

Aroban wrote:

I see all your arguments, I agree with all of them, except the combat drugs, which I think of as most likely useless combined with a venom blade, i.e. reroll wounds, +1 str, 3d6 run, +1 WS (except in a challenge).  

As zenotaph mentioned a +1 strength allows you to reroll wounds T4, and while rerolling isn't as effective as if you were wounding on 5s it's still a solid upgrade. You never know when it will be your time to roll ones for all your wounds. The run, is definitely crap, and +1WS isn't great, but it's not completely useless.

Hydra gauntlets, are fantastic! When the rolls are good...

As for wyches and bloodbrides, they're good fits, both thematically and offensively, the problem I've had in the past, is once their target is dead, so are they, and if their boat explodes (and it probably will) over half the unit dies, so your tactics just got thrown out the window.

I usually try to charge two units at once, like mentioned zombies and plagues, so im sure that i wont end combat in my turn, and i can just assault again in my next turn

Lahcimus wrote:

I usually try to charge two units at once, like mentioned zombies and plagues, so im sure that i wont end combat in my turn, and i can just assault again in my next turn

Just out of curiosity: What happens, if that is not possible?

If that is not possible i try to go behind some LoS blocker, or get in the combat with unit that im sure i wont kill in my turn, that why im takeing VB and AGO on succubus, because if i dont want to kill to much of something in my turn i just use weapon that im sure will kill less of it.

Any of you chaps ever use Succubi kitted out with blast pistol/agonizer? I've got two modelled this way from the guy I bought the majority of my DE from. Blast pistol honestly seems like a waste of points, but I've never tried so I can't judge.

I've used a Succubus with HWG/VB before, with a 4-grot w/aberration/LG escort, in a game with Imperial Fists vs double IG.
MVP unit hands down.
Took out three hydras, a heavy weapons unit, a squad of ratlings, a primaris psyker, and a command squad with those 5 models. Worst part is I kept forgetting to throw the HWG before charging, and accidentally allowed 2 of my grots to get tank-shocked to oblivion. Still that unit survived until the end of turn 7, and scored the most kills out of any unit in the match.
The thing that helped them most was having a small unit of Kabbies act as backfield objective campers and give their Raider ride as a backup to my succubus/grot squad for when theirs got blown to smithereens.
Pocket rocket, right there!

The Serpent Lord wrote:

I would think grots x 4 in a raider would be the best way to run her.  I would probably give the aberration a liquifier to soften up the target unit first to try and give yourself the best chance of making sure you get a pain token if you're sending this unit in solo.  Also make sure you give the raider aethersails to get in their face ASAP.  Hope this helps.

i run this very combo almost every game, and i am never disappointed, though i often don't take the liquefier, i don't like those much sometimes i also add a haem to the unit, to get the extra token and body for little cost

MFive, and anyone else who uses Grots/Succubi;
Do you use the Aberration? And if so, do you kit it out with a special weapon?

Laughingcarp wrote:

MFive, and anyone else who uses Grots/Succubi;
Do you use the Aberration? And if so, do you kit it out with a special weapon?

i almost always run an Aberration, scissorhand i find makes him a monster, with about 7 attacks on the charge, and they are all poisoned 3+ so in most cases they re-roll to wound as well

i don't take the liquifier gun because it makes it harder to charge, and they have no problem killing what they charge

Lahcimus wrote:

If that is not possible i try to go behind some LoS blocker, or get in the combat with unit that im sure i wont kill in my turn, that why im takeing VB and AGO on succubus, because if i dont want to kill to much of something in my turn i just use weapon that im sure will kill less of it.

using venom blade and agoniser on her is a good idea, his pistol is near useless anyways, and the blade will help vs things that don't have much armor, which will generally also get to re-roll 1's

Personally I don't feel the scissorhand is worth it on an aberration; with a Venom Blade you lose 1 attack, but it's 10pts cheaper and you're wounding on 2+ instead of 3+, still with a reroll if you had one before.

Arguments for Venom Blade vs Agonizer on a Succubus? Wounding on a 2+ vs wounding on a 4+ with AP3?

4 Grots, Aberration and a Venom Blade is the way to go. Liguifier risks too much with following charge as they don't have fleet. Used to run 3 grots but 4 have quite a lot more staying power to protect the HQ.

I'd take Venom blade for Succubus as well. Rather have her making more wounds that hope that her opponent doesn't have 2+ armor.

I see your point about the scissor hand on abberation, I may have to try that

VB vs Agro for the succubus ... depends on your meta. My area is full of marines, so I never leave home without one. Acording to mathhammer, thr Agro is better vs all bit termies, with it killing 2.963 T3 and 2.222 T4 ( no re-rolls for t4) while the VB only gets 2.160 T3 and 1.852 T4

For me, the extra pts is worth the better killing 3+ dudes

I can understand the Ago point. Even more so if Aberration has Venomblade.

Zenotaph wrote:

With a bit of luck, you roll a +1S for the Succubus drugs, meaning you can reroll the dice rolls of 1,
when wounding your enemy, even if they have T4. Which isn't half bad, because of no AP.

Long time lurker, but first post.  How is this possible?  I don't have my rule book, or codex in front of me at the moment.  How do you get to re-roll 1s?

With poison weapons in CC, if your strength is equal or greater than or equel to the victims toughness then You can re roll to wound, and because the venom blade is poisoned 2+ you get to reroll the ones

Oh crazy,
I'm assuming that is in the main rule book under the special rules section?

Yeah, agoniser should be AP2. Glass Hammer...yeah? Glass for sure.

I mean I guess you could complain that one attack int AP-2 or you could think of it as, for example, with the hydra gauntlet you get D6+ attacks (anywhere between 5-10 in just basic combat). I personally believe in quantity in most cases the math works out better in the long run. Plus she can have a blast pistol. Instagibbing 1 model <  10 savable wounds on 10 models. Put her with some Incubi and then not only do you have your AP-2 they are dishing out ungodly amounts of wounds. I prefer to play this game just like the movie 21, disregard all emotion (when it comes to outfitting) and stick to cold hard reliable math. Although throwing those D6 modifiers are fun I probably would never run one in a tournament setting, I never wan't to leave anything to chance. Well you know other than the Hydra gauntlet because it only gets better. And savable wounds are not something I consider chance they are a static function of the game, in a game of chance i guess.

I was a huge agonizer fan when I first started playing but I've moved far away from it as I find it unreliable, and situational. I find a power lance is better as the "new agoizer".

Its_Rumble wrote:

I mean I guess you could complain that one attack int AP-2 or you could think of it as, for example, with the hydra gauntlet you get D6+ attacks (anywhere between 5-10 in just basic combat). I personally believe in quantity in most cases the math works out better in the long run. Plus she can have a blast pistol. Instagibbing 1 model <  10 savable wounds on 10 models. Put her with some Incubi and then not only do you have your AP-2 they are dishing out ungodly amounts of wounds. I prefer to play this game just like the movie 21, disregard all emotion (when it comes to outfitting) and stick to cold hard reliable math. Although throwing those D6 modifiers are fun I probably would never run one in a tournament setting, I never wan't to leave anything to chance. Well you know other than the Hydra gauntlet because it only gets better. And savable wounds are not something I consider chance they are a static function of the game, in a game of chance i guess.

This is exactly why I favor the venom blade Its_Rumble. It will reliably cause more wounds than hydra gauntlets in almost every set up, I think hydra gauntlets only edge it out once you have furious charge and roll a 6. Testing on T4 I should say. Against GEQ, with average rolls, they're about even. But the fact that a venom blade is on average 3 wounds on any target that's not a gargantuan monstrous creature leaves very little to chance, guardsman, nurgle marine, hive tyrant, wrathknight, 3 wounds. And a hydra gauntlet costs more. Though I'll admit you do have me thinking about the blast pistol. A re-rollable S8 shot sounds nice. But the 8" distance could pose a problem. And while 90 points is still cheap for an HQ those 15 points might better be spent somewhere else.

But you're not wrong about wounds. A terminator squad charged my bloodbrides sunday and found out just what hydra gauntlets AND a venom blade can do. Had to remind him that a 2+ armor is good, but when you're taking 8 wounds a round you're going to fail one or two bud.