First Army List

Ah, so i've got a few thread roaming about that seem to go on tangents, so I decided to compile all the wandering thoughts into one thread here!

What I've got - how it's modeled:
Archon - huskblade, soul trap, pistol, grenade launcher (other items don't need to be modeled)
3 Blasterborn - 1 dracon w/blast pistol and agoniser
7 kabalites - 1 sybarite w/agoniser and blast pistol
10 Scourges - 2 w/shardcarbine (at front of each unit to be the first wound lost), 1 w/blaster, 1 w/HWB, 6 armless(waiting for bits)
2 Venoms - trophies and chain snares, waiting for raider bits to make the crew kabailites, not wyches
I've also got a bunch of Crypt Ghouls to be used as Ur-Ghuls.

At the moment, I'm looking at the following list:
(trying to get as many points out of models as i can, and using subs for now)

HQ
Archon (HWG, huskblade, phantasm, shadowfield, soul trap, splinter pistol,armour of misery, WWP)
Court (4 Ur-ghul, Venom w/snares+trophies+cannon)

Troop
5 Kabalites (Sybarite w/agoniser+blast pistol+HWG)
5 Kabalites (Sybarite w/Splinter rifle)

Elite
5 Trueborn (4x Blaster, Dracon w/agoniser+Blast pistol+HWG, Venom w/snares+trophies+cannon)

Fast
5 Scourges (4x HWB)
5 Scourges (4x Blaster)

---------------
This sits me on 1000 points exactly. But the more i read and see here, the more I think the Archon can use his WWP to drop the blasterborn in a nice spot (as opposed to them flying around, blasting things from the venom), then peel off and fight troops. giving a venom to a unit of kabalites.
I'm also considering dropp the armour of misery for the helm of spite considering the archon has shadowfield (and if that disappears he's as good as dead anyway...)

There's been some discussion on what best to equip my scourges with, which can continue here, if you all don't mind

Thanks in advance for the help!

I understand that you're working with the models that you have. That being said, I do have some thoughts on your list.

I'd be tempted to drop the Court (I've never found Ur-Ghul to be particularly useful) and give that Venom to one of the Kabalite squads - as you suggested. Then I'd drop the Sybarites from both units and, combined with a retooling of the Archon, pick up a Venom for the other Kabalite squad. The reconfigured Archon (Blaster and WWP? The WWP could make a Blast Pistol functional, albeit it not as efficient as a Blaster) could fit in neatly with the Blasterborn or with the Blaster-wielding Scourges.

As I put forth in your Scourge thread, I'm a big fan of HWB. There's not really much more I can say about them, but a shooty Archon with WWP can synergize well with HL or Blaster Scourges. Simply take them MC-hunting or pepper vehicles to taste.

Then again, that is a bit of a departure from what you currently have modeled. And you'd be a Venom short. But that's just my two cents!

Drakh.

I'd be a bit sad to have to rip apart the sybarite I've built! Maybe it's necessary!

I'm a fan of the fighty Archon and I plan to eventually put him in a unit of Incubi when I get the models! I wanted the pistol to get the extra attack (provided a pistol + weapon = extra attack).

To be honest, I've only put Ur ghul in because I needed the points. But I've come into some second hand models (the dark eldar battle force, minus the wyches) so my list is due for a re-write!

Reconsider some of your upgrades, keeping in mind the role you intend a unit to fulfill.

For instance: an agoniser on a Dracon, in a Trueborn squad tooled up for AT, is a waste of points. IF you intend to let the Trueborn assault anything, it should be a tank, in which case your Dracon's strength won't help and you would probably want to have him use his HWG anyway.
Same goes for the Sybarite; that's 50 points saved right there.

Getting back to the Archon; if you intend to let him help a shooty unit through his WWP, you might not want to spend the points to gear him up for assault - as you have now. The same applies in reverse, of course.

I'm going to echo a few of the comments, but I'll list them in the order you have in your post.

HQ
Archon (HWG, huskblade, phantasm, shadowfield, soul trap, splinter pistol,armour of misery, WWP)
I'd personally go with blast pistol, wwp, agoniser and shadowfield - reason being you've basically tooled him up to do everything, and he won't have the chance to do that in a game. My suggested loadout is designed to drop in a unit of scourges accurately, then either stick with them to tank wounds on the shadowfield, or detach and assault with another unit (ideally grotesques)
Court (4 Ur-ghul, Venom w/snares+trophies+cannon)
I don't rate the Ur-Ghuls as particularly useful, especially on their own. I'd also probably drop the snares and trophies from the venom as they're unlikely to get used. Give the venom to something else

Troop
5 Kabalites (Sybarite w/agoniser+blast pistol+HWG)
Drop the sybarite upgrade, and keep him as a normal guy with splinter rifle, or give him a blaster. Put the whole unit in the venom
5 Kabalites (Sybarite w/Splinter rifle)
Same as above, try and find points for another venom

Elite
5 Trueborn (4x Blaster, Dracon w/agoniser+Blast pistol+HWG, Venom w/snares+trophies+cannon)
Again the Dracon upgrade is unlikely to get used much, and by dropping those upgrades you can almost afford an extra venom!

Fast
5 Scourges (4x HWB)
Yup, like this
5 Scourges (4x Blaster)
I personally would go with heat lances and use the archon to make sure they're within melta range, but that's just me, I like the reassurance of melta weapons to take out nasty tanks.

thanks for the replies everyone!
So, putting the Archon in Incubi (thinking ahead because how the mini is modelled is more important in 40k than fantasy. Or so I am to believe) isn't viable? I suppose they can take care of themselves, but my theory was to use the armour of misery to force the unit to break through in combat. Not a viable plan?

I will revise my list right now. Taking into account ideas here, still unsure about the Archon. He has a great BS so a shooty Archon makes sense, however he is the only one who can have the huskblade and soul trap and to not use them seems bereft of fluff and a waste of the opportunity.

Problem you have with putting an Archon with Incubi is that one of them ends up being a bit wasted (and not in a good, alcohol induced way!).

Incubi have AP2 - the Archon doesn't, so sending the unit against terminators or their equivalent your expensive combat HQ is going to bounce off. Similarly, if you send the unit against less heavily armoured targets, the Incubi suffer from a lack of attacks (and grenades, always the lack of grenades).

Basically, we're generally better off shooting 2+ armoured stuff. Incubi are nice (and the models are excellent) but they are very, very niche in terms of their targets, whilst the Archon is more of a generalist.

the succubus works best with incubi

Thanks a lot for that! It's a good insight.
Perhaps then he WOULD be better to lead scourges and add some punch to their combat if the need arises. I'm thinking , in that case a blaster and the huskblade (coz I love the idea of it).

Viable?


Edit
Also, would a splinter cannon be a decent upgrade for a unit of 10 kabalites in a splinter rack raider?

My pleasure.

Blaster is a decent option if the scourges also have blasters. If they're taking heat lances then the blast pistol still gives you an extra close combat attack without losing you too much.

The biggest issue with the huskblade is your Archon's S3 - wounding with it against many opponents will be difficult. I'd say the agoniser is a much better bet (who's to say the sword he carries is not an agoniser?)

The splinter cannon I'm not sold on - it does increase damage and potential damage, but when I did some calculations, the cost of it means the unit efficiency drops (less wounds caused per point spent).

I agree with TBE.

Even if you use him to portal in some Scourges, ideally you wouldn't want the Scourges to be in combat if they could avoid it. It would be better to have the Archon charge out of the unit.

Which leads back to the question of his purpose. He would probably charge for only a few reasons:

(1) There's a vulnerable, juicy target.
(2) He can soak up Overwatch for another unit (Shadowfield/AoM required).
(3) You need to tie up a unit for at least a round.

I'm sure there are a few others, but I would imagine those are the most common. For all of those situations, he doesn't really need to be geared that heavily. So I'm not sure an Agonizer is even worth it.

D.

Thanks Team!
As much as it saddens me, the ruling is that thou shalt not use the huskblade(regardless of how instakilly it may potentially be).

Regarding the blaster/blast pistol, is not the limited range (6") of the pistol a problem?

Also, could you tell me your thoughts on the helm of spite? Is it worthwhile taking it (as the only protection against psychers we have)?

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

The splinter cannon I'm not sold on - it does increase damage and potential damage, but when I did some calculations, the cost of it means the unit efficiency drops (less wounds caused per point spent)

From what I understand, 40k is more about killpoints than point cost? In fantasy VP are equal to the amount of points you destroy, but that's different here, yeah? So would the points not be as important if the killing power is increased by the 6-10 rolls(taking re-rolls for twin linked) of the cannon over a rifle?

Based on these changes:
998 Points
HQ
Archon (HWG, agoniser, shadowfield, blast pistol, Helm of Spite, WWP)

Troop
5 Kabalites (Venom w/cannon+trophies)
10 Kabalites (Raider w/sails+nightshield+splinter racks, cannon)

Elite
5 Trueborn (4x Blaster, Venom w/cannon+trophies)

Fast
5 Scourges (4x HWB)
5 Scourges (4x Heat)
3 Reavers (cluster caltrops)

I don't find the blast pistol range to be limiting, but that's because my archon uses the webway portal and accompanies heat lance wielding scourges - they have to be within 9" anyway so I might as well get within 6".

The splinter cannon point is a minor one - but it's more a case of making the most of the points you have.

Ahh, of course! Duh!

Being that's all the models I have access to, I want to reach 1000 points so i can play games vs my friends... Do you think the revised list is workable?

Thanks!

definitely workable, though perhaps a little lacking in anti infantry for my personal tastes, but certainly won't embarrass you

Cheers!

What do you usually use for anti infantry?
I thought (perhaps wrongly) that the kabalites and the venoms could take out infantry, while the reavers could take out infantry with their hammer of wrath.

Also, I had hoped that my original combat archon could have taken care of infantry (I figured that instant death would circumvent any feel no pain saves).

nexs wrote:

Cheers!

What do you usually use for anti infantry?
I thought (perhaps wrongly) that the kabalites and the venoms could take out infantry, while the reavers could take out infantry with their hammer of wrath.

Also, I had hoped that my original combat archon could have taken care of infantry (I figured that instant death would circumvent any feel no pain saves).

You are correct, but even in a 1,000 point list I'd try to fit in 3-4 Venoms. I think that's what TBE was referring to. To put it briefly, we don't take 5-man squads in Venoms for the Kabalite Warriors.

D.

I have this cup of knowledge. and it's still very empty!

What do you generally put in venoms if not kabalites?

I think there's a misunderstanding. You do put Warriors in a Venom. What I meant to say is that the reason for doing so is the dedicated Venom itself (which takes up no slot on the Force Org chart) and not for the 5-10 splinter rifle shots. You want the Venom's dual cannons spitting out 12 shots a turn.

The Venom is our best anti-infantry unit - and possibly the best unit for its point cost in the game.

Ohhhhh! Don't worry, I must be wearing my stupid hat today.

I'll definitely split up my units when I purchase more venoms! The raider I have can eventually house something a little more potent, though I'm not sure what...

A gunboat is still a great choice. Some players opt to use them over Venoms. Splinter Racks and a 10-man unit can dish out the pain. It really comes down to your play style.

But here is something important to consider. What does your meta look like? Which armies can you expect to face? Are your opponents competitive or are they a bit more lax? Every list should take this into consideration.

D.

I'm a bit of a WHFB tactician, but 40k throws me right out!

Regarding meta, I'm really not sure. I think its more on the friendly side than the powerplay side. Especially against a newbie, but I have read that DE is a hard army to play and it's quite unforgiving of even minor mistakes.
But I'm OK with that, I like the challenge (hence the numerous questions i'm throwing at you all!)

I came back to gaming with the DE a couple of years ago, and boy did I learn the hard way! I can be a bit stubborn and went into a local league with lots of wargear upgrades etc I'd been advised not to take and got slaughtered. I think of the first four games I played i got tabled three times, and the fourth I only managed to avoid it by two or three guys cowering behind a rock. It took me a good few months and a comprehensive re-think on things before I got my first win, but that made it so much sweeter!

On the bright side - you seem to want to learn (whereas i thought i didn't need to) and the guys on here are plenty knowledgable on the whole about what works. The difficulty is always adapting your list to your meta - I hear lots of people raving about reavers, but for me they're not so good, because i face a lot of ignores cover stuff, and people at my club have been burned by the reavers before (one particular kill team game against tau my opponent was getting highly frustrated as I basically zoomed back and forth across the table over his crisis suit teams hacking them with bladevanes whilst he couldn't get near me). They're now target priority one for most people so I've stopped using them much.

Oh man, that sounds like a good old time!
I don't know many of the 40k rules yet,but once I have a good read through I think things will start making sense.

Well thanks to everyone who's helped me, I have at least a bit of an idea on what the game plan will be:
1. Drop the heat lances with the Archon in the perfect position (9" from the toughest tank) then hopefully peel the Archon off into combat with some grunts while the heat lances distract some 2+ dudes. (i am a little worried about the psychic phase so in thinking helm of spite, but if the Archon won't survive without the armour of misery I may need it?)

2. Drop the blaster born to kill big stuff and threaten expensive units (heat scourges to support later)

3.  Kabalites to shoot tough or lightly armoured dudes

4. Reavers charge, hammer of wrath units, run away, repeat?

I had my first couple of test games.

Things I've learned:
1. The Archon is a shooting machine, so the agoniser will be enough to keep him out of trouble if need be. If he's going to die, he's going to die because my dice love to roll 1's, so i'll expect it.
2. The Armour of Misery and Helm of Spite are very situational and it doesn't seem likely that they'll come into play too often. I'm thinking the Archangel of Pain or the Animus Vitae may be more useful (thoughts, anyone?).
3. Splinter weapons! Yaaaaayyyyy!