A Wych wishlist

In my codex, they have the 5/4/3 dodge, the banshees acrobatic rule (+3" run/charge) and each unit can take 1 hekatrix per 5 models. The hexatrixes can take Wych weapons for free.
The bonuses are subtle but make them worth it.
additionally my formation 'legends of the arena' gives wyches embark/disembark at cruising speed...and nexus of pain...which is +1pfp turns when in melee combat
all in all very playable
I think a lot of the ideas floating around are aiming to put DE Just as OP as decurion/gladius/CWE...I would rather aim for a balanced and reasonable codex as it should be and not a f#*k you OP list

Hi all. New to the forum, played Dark Eldar for about 3-4 years and have roughly 16 years in the hobby all together.  

Now on to the question at hand. I'm not much for fiddling with the rules as such, but clearly GW overestimates close combat in this edition! Thus have rendered our Wyches next to useless all together. And believe me, I play in a very fluff-friendly environment, where we discourage power play and such. But even then, my Wyches leaves more to be desired from!

This is what I have scribbled together, and aim to play test. I didn't want to over do anything, but feel free to comment and leave critique.

Dark Eldar Wyches 35p



             Ws  Bs  S  T  W  I  A  Ld  Sv  Unit type          Composition:
Wych        5    4   3  3   1  6  1  8   6+  Infantry             5 Wyches
Hekatrix     5    4   3  3   1  6  2  9   6+  Infantry (Char)
Bloodbride  5    4   3  3   1  6  2  9   6+  Infantry
Syren        5    4   3  3   1  6  3  9   6+  Infantry (Char)

Dodge: A model with this special rule has a 4+ invulnerable save against all Wounds inflicted in the Assault Phase. Futher more, a model with this special rule that is inside a transport that gets the Explode result on the Vehicle Damage Chart, only suffers a hit on a 6+ and does not need to take a Pinning check.

Wargear:
Wychsuit
Splinter pistol
Close combat weapon
Plasma grenades

Special rules:
Combat drugs
Fleet
Night vision
Power from pain

Option:
May include up to fifteen additional Wyches                7pts./model
May upgrade all wyches to Bloodbrides, changing the units Battlefield Role to Elites. 3Pts./model
One Wych may be upgraded to a Hekatrix        10pts.
One bloodbride may be upbraded to a Syren 10pts.
The Hekatrix of Syren may take items from the Melee Weapons list.
The Hekatrix or Syren may replace their splinter pistol with a blaster pistol 5pts.
The Hekatrix or syren may take any of the following:
+Haywire grenades 5pts.
+Phantasm grenade launcher 5pts.
One wych may take a wych weapon from the Wych Cult Weapons list, unless the squad numbers ten or more models, in chich case up to three models may do so for free.
The unit may select a Raider or Venom as a Dedicated Transport

Combat Drugs:
1. Adrenalight: +1 Attack
2. Grave Lotus: +1 Strength
3. Hypex: +1 Dodge/first round of combat
4. Painbringer: +1 Thoughness
5. Serpentin +1 Weapon Skill
6. Splintermind: +1 Leadership

Wych Cult Weapon: The model wielding  Wych Cult Weapons exchange his Splinter Pistol for a pair of weapons with the folowing profile:

Range    S     AP    Type
  -      User   -      Melee, Rend, Shred


Thoughts: 
 
I have in this example tried my best to ”balance” the Wych to a more fair standard than the official GW frame. For starters, I have lowered the points cost to a level I personally think justifies what you get. 7 points/model is a necessity  when fielding a unit with such low survivability and still not hard enough punch to be called a glass cannon. At 7 points I feel they do justice to what you get for a Close Combat unit with potential, and they get in line with the Kabalite Warrior points costs. 
Secondly, I wanted to emphasize that these are our masters of close combat. Our own ”Aspect Warriors” if you may call it that. These chicks where born and bread for close quarter combat, and I felt that a 5 Ws was indeed the least we could do to improve on their stat line without over doing it. We have to keep in mind that they now have a much lower points cost, and not cross the border to cheese! 
Third I revisited a much needed Dodge Rule, that has crippled the Wych Squad since the release of the current codex. I changed the text; ”against all Wounds inflicted in the Fight sub-phase” to a much more usable ”against all Wounds inflicted in the Assault Phase”. This will give our severely crippled Close Combat unit of todays shooty edition a much needed edge against the Owerwatch special rule! And for kicks I also decided to ad a rule often used in older editions on transport-units (back in the day many units where separated from their units as a separate entry, just because they had a dedicated transport, and  went as a Fast Attack slot instead of Core. They often had a "get out of transport" special rule). I think it fits the theme without over doing it. Its simply there as a result of all the ”ignore cover” units that are now flooding the tables these days. As a result, our transports don't stand a flicker of a chance and takes with it more than its fair share of the unit inside when going down. This way, we get our Wyches up field and actually leaves us something to assault with when our dedicated transport gets blown to Kingdom come! 
So we have the big three! 
1. Points cost 
2. Combat profile 
3. The Dodge Rule 
Now that we have solved the basics of what I personally feel is the largest problems with this unit. We move on to some fine details. Me and my mates have since long hated the fact that Pistols cost just as much as a gun, but you will ever only fire it once or twice during a full battle! So I have decided to house rule points costs of  most of the pistols in all Codexes to cost 5 points instead of the usual 15, this way they are actually used during the creation of army-lists! 
The Phantasm grenade launcher is also lowered in cost as, though useful, is only useful for about half the teams available (Damn you ATSKNF!!!). This makes it a big gamble to pick during creation of you're list, and is rarely never used, which is a shame as it is a fun and fluffy addition.
I also simplified the rules for the Wych Weapons for the following reason. If a player has three option at the same amount of cost, he will simply pick the better of the three. Thus negating the chance to chose all together. The way I have made it, we now move back to the old Wych Weapon rules, that simply gave the guys wielding wicked weapons a beneficial rule, no matter what they where actually wielding. It also encourage people to take larger squads due to free weapons! True that this could be fixed by altering points and profiles all together, but it would take more work and is harder to balance.
It bothered me as well that half of the Combat Drug table was nigh unusable. You might as well put ”Roll a D6, 1-3 something happens, and on a 4+ you don't get any benefit”. I didn't want to tweak to much in to it though, as it might border on crossing the cheese. So I took the one with least ammount of benefit, Hypex, and in the end I do feel I have balanced it out to be at least a little bit usable (I mean, come on... +1 Initiative? Really, like we couldn't be satisfied with the I6 we already had!). And it fits the fluff, as the user gets lightning reflexes!

Hi Maelel...I like your thinking.

I am wary of the WS 5, and I think the Hypex should stay as +1 Initiative to keep standard with all other Drug using units (Even though it will rarely add value)

I think the Points for Wych/Wrack/Kabalite should be 8 across the board, and I like the simplified Wych weapons too (though I imagine there will be haters!)

Don't forget formations too. I imagine a huge fleet of venoms and raiders teeming with Wyches swarming the foe! All we need is a similar points drop (And the Skilled Rider/Jink rule) for Hellions and the Wych cults will be awesome

daveyo wrote:

Hi Maelel...I like your thinking.

I am wary of the WS 5, and I think the Hypex should stay as +1 Initiative to keep standard with all other Drug using units (Even though it will rarely add value)

I think the Points for Wych/Wrack/Kabalite should be 8 across the board, and I like the simplified Wych weapons too (though I imagine there will be haters!)

Don't forget formations too.  I imagine a huge fleet of venoms and raiders teeming with Wyches swarming the foe!  All we need is a similar points drop (And the Skilled Rider/Jink rule) for Hellions and the Wych cults will be awesome

Thats a nice thought. I'm all for making the game more simple, and 8 points all across the board makes all that and balance somewhat as well!
The combined wych weapon profile is an old rule that came after the first DE dex. Hated by many as you say, but much easier to make both efficient and balanced.
In formation I would love to get a full Wych Cult (like 4-6 full squads in raiders with hq and all, gaining a massive bonus for playing such a crap setup ).
But more importantly, I would love to see a "webway" Formation. Like, a full squad with wych hq that has a WWP, gaining the full benefit of their dodge save on the turn they arrive, alternative gaining the classical Deathleaper rule of "all units firing on this unit must fire snap fire", and another option that seems to be on topic from GW the good´ol "may assault on the turn they arrive". Any of the three would be a great lift for the Wyches!
Best of all would be a supplement book of Wych cults, with all new PFP table (more aggressive), new Combat drugs table (digging deeper in to the cults will reveal new drugs), and beneficial "army wide rule" and some awesome formations!
Id like to strike a blow on a topic you mentioned here as well. The Hellions, its a shame they got the shaft this Codex! If one where to correct the points cost of the rest of the units (down to 7-8´ish) they would sit great on 10 points flat with the rules they have now!

Alas! If you want all these rules, there is one book to rule them all. And it certainly is not Codex DE that features the skyhammer formation. Don't you all get it already? GW wants you to play SM vs SM and vie for being the best buddy of the necrotic emprah .

TBH, I am pretty burnt out by 40K in its current state. I loved my Haywire wyches but I understand the removal of that option. DE have this insanely high initiative that isn't really used to its best effect. I'd like an initiative test against vehicle explosions. Maybe, just maybe, they'd be quick enough to jump off a damaged vehicle and land with grace rather than blowing to pieces like all the other slow races.

DEfan wrote:

I loved my Haywire wyches but I understand the removal of that option. DE have this insanely high initiative that isn't really used to its best effect. I'd like an initiative test against vehicle explosions. Maybe, just maybe, they'd be quick enough to jump off a damaged vehicle and land with grace rather than blowing to pieces like all the other slow races.

I actually thought an initiative test, like for hit and run, might be the solution for overcoming overwatch.  Both sides roll a d6 and add initiative, if the wyches score is higher, the target of the charge simply didn't react in time and can't overwatch.

There'd still be a risk of getting flattened by a wall of overwatch fire, but they would avoid it most of the time.

As for haywire wyches, I think they should have made haywire grenades - or some weapon with the haywire rule a wych weapon.  I don't think it'd be OP if 1 in 5 or 3 in a unit of 10 had haywire weapons - maybe even remove the grenades from the hexatrix as an option.

I don't think I'd like to see wyches drop to 8ppm. To me they're a specialist unit, and 8ppm is too much like horde pricing. I want them to be elite duellists, not pretty orks! Their current price is about right IMO (though obviously they don't do enough to justify at the moment).

If it were up to me, I'd keep the dodge save just in the fight sub-phase too. I don't mind that wyches are vulnerable to shooting, overwatch included, as long as they can successfully roll a decent charge range and then hit hard in cc when they get there. Even with fleet I've failed plenty of sub-6-inch charges, which just isn't good enough for a specialised and fragile cc unit. A banshee-esque 3" charge bonus would be perfect. That and psueudo-rending for some extra punch would be enough for me to take them again. That way they're still vulnerable to bullets (and rightly so IMO), but can at least reliably roll a sufficient charge distance and hit with some extra clout in cc.

Those changes would not be remotely enough to make me want to take Wyches, sadly. They would still be too vulnerable and not hit hard enough.

Count Ademar wrote:

Those changes would not be remotely enough to make me want to take Wyches, sadly. They would still be too vulnerable and not hit hard enough.

Maybe, maybe not. I think that'd be about right for vulnerability but I could probably be convinced that rending isn't enough to make them hit hard enough. I haven't math-hammered or play-tested it or anything. Are power weapons too much? I think they are...

Actually, we could decrease their vulnerability indirectly, by giving some of our other units a few decent pinning weapons. Terrorfex grenades anyone? I'd prefer that to extra overwatch-ignoring or exploding-transport-nullifying rules on the wych's own army list entry.

Dodge vs overwatch would not be remotely OP or, IMO, unrealistic. I'd also say that an Initiative test to escape an exploding vehicle without harm is something that every DE unit should have. I'd also give Wyches the ability to do the same to disembark from a vehicle moving at cruising speed and still assault afterwards, although I'd accept a points increase to reflect that ability.

As for offence, I'm a bit lost as to what can be done to make them more powerful. I don't want to increase their strength as they should not be capable of taking out tanks without using their grenades. Poison is nice and quite fluffy but where does that leave Wracks? Rending is quite realistic but I'm not sure it would do the job. Combination of Rending and Shred would be about right. All of the above would make them a decent combat unit that still has significant drawbacks but would be worth taking (at the right point cost).

Also, fix the damn Wych Weapons, both in terms of effect and the ability to take them.

Oh agreed, I don't think dodge vs overwatch would be OP. It's just a bit cheap and easy. It's too 'new eldar'. Just my opinion, mind.

I tend to turn my nose up when it comes to rules that directly make DE more survivable. By directly, I mean 'negate blah's damage on a roll of 4+', or 'such and such is immune to thingy'. Make us more survivable indirectly by preventing the enemy from firing on us (i.e. pinning etc., which comes as a result of our own attacks) instead.

But yes, I don't know how to make wyches hit harder either. As you said, S4 is a no-no. Power weapons would be too much for a troops unit. More attacks on their profile deviates from their duellist image. Rending and shred seems like a decent shout though. Or 5+ rending? (Not true rending though, I don't want the extra D3 vs vehicles. Is that still a thing..?)

Haha yeah, the wych weapons are craptastic and unfathomably unavailable. Especially on bloodbrides.

WrackYourBrains wrote:

I tend to turn my nose up when it comes to rules that directly make DE more survivable. By directly, I mean 'negate blah's damage on a roll of 4+', or 'such and such is immune to thingy'. Make us more survivable indirectly by preventing the enemy from firing on us (i.e. pinning etc., which comes as a result of our own attacks) instead.

I just feel that it's utterly stupid for a race of fragile beings to ride around in vehicles that are more deadly to the occupants than the weapons of the enemy are! It also doesn't reflect the inhuman speed and agility of Dark Eldar in general and Wyches in particular that they lose over half their number in a vehicle explosion. That's why I feel an Initiative test would be appropriate as it directly relates to their speed and agility rather than just being a save or a 'on a 4+' roll.

As for offence, I think 5+ pseudo-rend would probably be quite good and agree that they shouldn't get the vehicle effect.

So, Dodge save in the entire assault phase, Initiative test to avoid vehicle explosion damage, Initiative test to assault after disembarking from a vehicle travelling at cruising speed, 5+ pseudo-Rend and Shred - does that fix Wyches? If so, what points are they now worth?

I like the initiative test for assault after cruising speed for sure. I'm not sold on the initiative test for explosions though. An S3 hit for ALL open-topped vehicles would be better IMO, rather than S4. One for the BRB! As for dodge, I say leave it alone and give terrorfex grenades (a la 3ed) to raiders, venoms, maybe trueborn, or some other guys to stifle overwatch via pinning. Dodging a bullet isn't the same as dodging a sword, even for wyches.

And then I'd go for 5+ pseudo-rending but no shred, since with shred that'd be AP2 on 5/9 of your hits rather than 1/3 (=3/9 for easy comparison) without shred against T4. Seems a little high to me, because that's better than a S4 AP2 weapon against T4 (which would be AP2 on 1/2 (=4.5/9) of your hits).

It feels like we're bartering. We're bartering to to find an agreeable solution to a situation that neither of us have the power to change. Oh well, I'm having fun

So, initiative-cruising-assault thingy plus 5+ pseudo-rend. I'm no good at points values, sooo... 12pts or 13pts? Based purely on the fact that I'd say that with the above they'd be the same as or just a little worse than banshees.

It would kinda be cool if they return old Wych Weapons rule, the one where you negate +1 atack for 2 CCW. It would be far better then imporvising those stupid wych weapons rule, where you get little bonuses, but have to actually track those rolls separately.

I want some quality effect, rather then better roll for those weapons. 5th ed. Shardnet Effect was very interesting in that case. Pity our codex was released as part of "make it simpler" design fluke, so many interesting design decisions just gone.

How to fix wyches?

Give them their 5th Ed profile. If you're feeling really altruistic, let their Dodge work on Overwatch (or God forbid, any non-Shooting attack plus Overwatch).

This thread is very entertaining and I've really enjoyed reading all of the proposed fixes.  But the problem, as I see it, is threading the needle to make Wyches worth taking while also not giving them a massive points increase is REALLY tricky, because they are SOOOOOO bad right now that to make them worth even their current point cost is an uphill battle.  Plus, I feel like they're constrained somewhat by being Troops.  Nobody expects their basic Troop unit to be elite CC monsters.   If I want to kill something in CC, I'm taking Grotesques, Incubi, Reavers, or Talos.  I'm not expecting that out of my Troop slot.  Besides any unit that I could beat in CC with a basic troop, I could probably shoot to death just as easily.  Easier, even, as I could do if from afar.  Maybe this is a problem with the fluff, as it portrays Wyches as badass gladiators who are awesome at CC and when the rules don't reflect that, it leads to a kind of cognitive dissonance among DE players.  

I do like the idea of giving Wyches Shred and Rending, but if it means a point increase, then I'd still probably take Warriors instead, as in a shooting game, I value the extra firepower they give me.  With Wyches, I'd be hoping that enough Wyches survive to make it into combat and then I proceed to roll a bunch of sixes.  I've learned with Reavers that any unit that relies on rolling sixes, even with Shred, to do anything is not a unit you can or should place a lot of faith in (I still like Reavers, but Grotesques and Incubi see way more time on the table because I know what to expect from them).  

As for fixing Wyches, I actually think the 5th ed. codex got Wyches totally right.  As a compromise, maybe make HWG 5ppm and let every Wych take one.  That's probably the only way I'd be willing to pay more for Wyches, because it gives them a clearly defined role in our army again.   If Warriors are ant-infantry basic troops, it makes sense to have a basic troop with some anti-tank capability.  After all, basic SMs have Krakk grenades and every Necron Warrior can glance a vehicle with their standard gun.   I've seen some people who are happy that Wyches lost HWG because it didn't fit the fluff.  Well, I'm not an expert on fluff, but based on the rules and codexes GW has given us in 7th, I don't think they give a crap about the fluff any more, so why should we?  If having Wyches (and Hellions) be unplayable and lack any discernible role is fluffy, then I'll gladly take my un-fluffy 5th ed. rules and the useful Wyches that went along with it.

I've always thought that since the dark kin live (and die) on their skimmers they should at least have some rules to mitigate that danger.  The dodge or initiative test versus explosions is definitely one way although I would want more in general (like recovering from an immobilized result on the roll of a 6).  With the changes to skyfire, 7th edition has made our skimmers (and their occupants) more vulnerable than ever.

As for damage output - how about just a whole bucket full of attacks?  +1 to base, an extra one per wych weapon, and give the hexatrix rage or rampage as a unit ability.  Add the chance for an extra attack from combat drugs and even strength 3 might get the job done.  Mainly it'd increase the damage vs hordes as well as elites (although not as much).

Fluff wise I think wyches should spin bloody cartwheels of death through that blob of 3 point cultists - not run desperately around it to try to catch up with something else they can only hope to hold up for the rest of the battle.

Price wise? Even with upgrades, 10 points would still seem to be in line with the new norm.

Improving the interaction with our transports would be a big win. Init test to avoid damage (love this, should be standard on every open topped vehicle), 12" then disembark, or even disembark at any point of the 12" move would all be handy.

The interaction with Power from Pain is another important one. I've posted elsewhere about how I'd like to see pain tokens return, but with an area of effect radius of some kind. I think this could tie in nicely (if properly executed) to allow a unit of wyches in combat to produce benefits for Dark Eldar in the local area, similarly to the way that the Commorragh arenas energise their spectators.

A tarpit that kills a couple of guys a turn is much more attractive if the act of killing those guys empowers other sections of your army.

Of course a buff to actually get them able to kill things would also be appreciated. Arena specialties to offer a degree of customisation? Say for +x pts (from a lower base) you can do one of a) get pseudo-rending or b) reroll 1s to hit or c) drop enemy's attacks by one or d) generate more pain than usual etc...

I love a lot of these suggestions.

Completely agree with the 12 inch disembark. Not sure if just for Wyches, or for all Dark Eldar (non coven).

I think WS 5, 4+ dodge for all assault, +1 attack, Shred, & wych weapons have rending would fix them nicely. For 10 points.

I don't think that's too rough. An Ork slugga boy is 7 points(?) and against that comparison we would have 1 WS, Shred vs Furious Charge, -1 T, and +1 Leadership. That seems fair. But maybe I am biased.

Rasp wrote:

I don't think that's too rough. An Ork slugga boy is 7 points(?)

Six.

Points costs are the problem. You think that wyches are bad now, but you would take them if they were 5 points each, or if every squad came with a free transport. The truth is that points costs are based on no criteria at all: they are only tweaks to their 3rd edition values made with no regard to how much rules may have changed.

I have to roll my eyes when someone suggests changes to wyches and someone else says, 'If we did that, we would have to increase their points.' Why? Games Workshop doesn't. They give a model two new special rules, +1 to BS and +1 to WS and still bring their points cost down. Points are a bulls* number figuratively pulled out of someone's bum (not literally, or at least so I hope).

And yet look what happens when they try to do away with them, as they did in Age of Sigmar. People cherish the self-evident delusion even when it screws them over! It's as if you said:

'Pppplease! Don't take away my imaginary blanket!'

'Why not?'

'I'd be cold!'

Except that it didn't have an imaginary effect on AOS, it had a huge, very real effect. It wrenched the game away from the competitive player and put it squarely into the wheelhouse of the beer and pretzels guys. Now maybe that's what some people want, but if they did it to 40k I'd be irate.

Just to chime in; as it stands I don't think wyches are any better than the standard ork boy, yet almost have twice the cost.

I have to disagree with disembarking from cruising speed though. That problem is not directly related to wyches (yet will be happy to discuss it).

Pseudo rend is in line with Leliths rule, so I like the sound of it a lot. Maybe similar to the bladestorm rule from CWE, but in close combat? And an increase in WS. I think having the same weapon skill as warriors was another gross oversight from GW. All that with the curren point costs and I'm happy.

E: I also dislike HWG as an option on every wych. It does not feel like it matches the fluff, and would be akin to giving grotesques sniper rifles.

Sniper Grotesques?! That sounds awesome!

I say they need to be set up as below..
Ws5,bs4,s3t3i5/6,w1,ld8,sv4++..weapons poison 4+ ,hydra gauntlets extra d6,razorflails reroll hits ,wounds.... Option to somehow take one lhamie as an option,one per army, gives the poison 2/id6 rule for ccw. They should have their hwg back also. Ccw options fo hekatrix is agoniser,venom blade..
Should also be able to disembark  from vehicle and assault.. They are our basic only cc unit if you do pure de no grots wracks.... Incubi too $$ to run in large numbers.
I am typing this on my phone so excuse grammar issues...also i know i have forgotten something but this is my take .

Wyches can already disembark and charge, since raiders and venoms are assault vehicles.