Versus Necrons

Greetings fellow denizens of Commorragh,

I have an upcoming competitive game against Necrons. Primarily I am worried about their Canoptek Wraiths. 3++ seems like it will be hard to pump through, although I am considering just running some razorwing flocks and trying to tie them down for a few turns?

Destroyers and Immortals also seem like they may be a bit problematic. with T5 3+ Armor, I am assuming my best bet will probably be a Spearhead Black Heart Dissie Ravager bubble around my Writ Archon.

What I am mainly worried about is the experience difference. My opponent has been playing his Necrons literally since before I was in middle school. Due to this, I am afraid of being outmaneuvered - are there any Deep Strike units I have to worry about? what other key targets should I focus or be wary of?

At the very least I know that I need to target a unit until it is fully destroyed or else risk Reanimation Protocols.

Any and all advice is appreciated.

Hey there fellow archon.

I play necrons, so I might be able to give you some tips.

Wraiths are hard to kill off, they are T5 W3 and 3++. They also have 3A WS3 and 2 damage. Flocks will melt away and he can also fall back and charge with them. moving through any terrain or models. Also there are 2 strats for them which you should look out for. 1 is to allow them to charge after they advance, so 12'' plus D6 is a fast threat range. The other strat is to give them reanimation rolls for a turn (2CP).
So to sum it up, stay away from them and hit them with multi wound weapons like dissi or lance so atleast you are dropping wounds off them. that's only if you can not ignore them, they only do damage in close combat. So if you can reliably stay away from them its no big deal. they also can fly, so can charge jetfighters lol.

Like you said with destroyers they are T5 but with focused fire from ravagers they will die. Immortals are space marines, T4 3+. Nothing to fear there.

With deep strike units, the only ones who have it are flayed ones and deathmarks. Anything else requires a stratagem, night scythe, monolith or a once per battle relic that teleports the bearer and one unit.

Just remember most necron weapons are 24''. And most models move 5''. If you can stay out of the threat range and deal damage from afar, focus fire and set up charges to finish off units. you should be ok. Also if he has vehicles don't bother shooting lances at it unless you have to. the quantum shielding makes D6 damage hard to get through. But dissi works well, but they also heal a wound per turn. so unless you dedicate all your shooting, don't worry about them.

I hope some of what I said helps.

Wraiths are actually not something our army needs to be too afraid of. T5 +3 invul save models go down just as easy as a standard marine does to poison fire. Just saturate those wraiths with poison fire, save your high ap high damage weapons like dissie cannons and dark light weapons for units without an invul save like destroyers.

You definetly do not need to worry about being outmaneuvered by necrons as dark eldar. Their average movement value is 5, and unless they take a lot of night scythes or are playing the nephrekh dynasty that has a deep strike stratagem, their infantry are slow.

There's really just two things to watch out for verses crons. One in quantum shielding which most of their vehicles have, it makes it difficult for any d6 damage weapons to take them out in many cases. Focusing on dissie cannons in your list is a good alternative option. The other thing is reanimation protocols. You want to focus on taking out one unit at a time so that they can't get any models back.

I play necrons as well. To reiterate the "focus units down" advice more strongly: don't be afraid of shooting literally your entire army into a single squad.

Alot of generals are obsessed with only shooting guns against the perfect target (poison against monsters or infantry, lances against vehicles, etc) which against Necrons is a big mistake. They love it if you half-damage two separate units so they both reanimate/regen, whereas killing the last model in a unit is far more important than the first. Don't be afraid to put a Dark Lance into a single Warrior: killing that one will prevent another 10 reanimating next turn. The last time I played them my squad of 6 destroyers got reduced down to a single model with 1 wound left on turn 1, but by the end of the game had reanimated every single one back.

Secondly: kill the characters whenever you can. Crypteks vastly increase the reanimation and survivability of nearby crons and should be shot first in all cases. An Overlord nearly doubles the firepower of Tesla Immortals (and makes them walk faster as well). C'Tan shards don't regen and pump out mortal wounds, but are perfect targets for Poison weapons.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Wraiths are actually not something our army needs to be too afraid of. T5 +3 invul save models go down just as easy as a standard marine does to poison fire. Just saturate those wraiths with poison fire, save your high ap high damage weapons like dissie cannons and dark light weapons for units without an invul save like destroyers.

There's really just two things to watch out for verses crons. One in quantum shielding which most of their vehicles have, it makes it difficult for any d6 damage weapons to take them out in many cases. Focusing on dissie cannons in your list is a good alternative option. The other thing is reanimation protocols. You want to focus on taking out one unit at a time so that they can't get any models back.

Well then what is the best way to deal with quantum shields, dissies and haywire blasters maybe?

At this point everything you guys have said point to using maximum dissies as they are the most effective vs Destroyers + Quantum Shields + Wraiths + Immortals. Black Heart Spearhead Detachment with 6 Ravagers all Dissies with a Writ Archon? If what you guys said is true about their movement speed and range (~5"M, ~24" Range Weapons, 29" total), I should be able to perpetually keep out of their firing range since I have 14"M and 36" range plus my Archon even has +3"M over them, so I should even be able to keep my bubble intact. Even kabalites in raiders should be able to mostly keep out of their weapon range with 24" rifles + 14"M (38" effective range). However, that little Ravager bubble would be about half of my 2000 army, and therefore draw VERY heavy fire. If he does have anything that will be able either to outrange or close in on me, I need to have some kind of plan or defense set in preparation. This is why I originally thought of razorwing flocks, as they have 4W and 12"M, making them a cheap tarpit fast enough to keep up with my ravager bubble, even over terrain.

However, as the game goes on, I will have less and less space to maneuver. Additionally, I have played against this opponent before (Against his other army) so he definitely knows that I will be fast and maneuverable. Particularly I think he has come to fear my blasters and my Jets. Due to this, he will likely have some kind of plan or tactic in place to counter my speed and possibly even vehicles in general. Whether it be through Quantum Shielding, Deep Strike, or some kind of anti-tank shenanigans, I think he will have a trick up his sleeve. What in particular do you guys think I need to look out for, and if he was going to deep strike, what unit would it be with and how would be best to counter it?

Considering a Red Grief Outrider Reaver detachment to shore up any shooters I cant outrange for a turn or units that pop up from DS or are just particularly fast. If the necrons have any tank like vehicles these would also help to get them in CC for a turn or two.

if you know your opponents army, dont bother with dark lances if he has no monoliths or pylons, dissie canons will melt their vehicles and destroyers. Destroyers are the new schtick of the 8th edition, expect a lot of them, they also reanimate with their full wounds back so make sure to kill entire units
the new version of their gun hurts us pretty hard, c'tan (lol as if) are just monsters with a bad save, avoid close combat and their smite like abilities, watch out for the veil of dankness, it ususally teleports a cryptek and 20 warriors (after they've been hit with my will be done, so bs 2+) into rapid fire range, crypteks are your number 1 priority characters to kill, because they give units within 3" a 5++ and a 4+ reanimation protocol

AzraeI wrote:

if you know your opponents army, dont bother with dark lances if he has no monoliths or pylons, dissie canons will melt their vehicles and destroyers. Destroyers are the new schtick of the 8th edition, expect a lot of them, they also reanimate with their full wounds back so make sure to kill entire units
the new version of their gun hurts us pretty hard, c'tan (lol as if) are just monsters with a bad save, avoid close combat and their smite like abilities, watch out for the veil of dankness, it ususally teleports a cryptek and 20 warriors (after they've been hit with my will be done, so bs 2+) into rapid fire range, crypteks are your number 1 priority characters to kill, because they give units within 3" a 5++ and a 4+ reanimation protocol

Actually I am fairly certain that my opponent will include at least one monolith. Not sure what they do, but I will equip my raider transports with Dark Lances.

Wow, crypteks do sound like a problem. What is their statline? How would be best to remove them? a squad or two of 9 reavers with 3 grav talons might work, aiming to kill each cryptek in a single charge ofc. Combat Drugs being +1A, +1S/WS

As for the Veil of Dankness, that gives me a bit of worry. I can use Agents of Vect to counter Stratagems but that sounds like a relic. How would be best to deal with this? Even if I try and screen against this my ravager bubble or whatever other key target would almost certainly be within firing range. Perhaps I keep another squad of reavers in the back to tie them up in CC on my turn so they only get 1 shooting phase off? Combat Drug of +1T

i just mathammered it: 3 darklight ravagers do 10.50 wounds, 3 dissie ravagers do 10 against t8 3+, the only difference is you could reroll a bad damge roll with a command point

crypteks are horrible in terms of survivabilty, they have t4 w4 and a 4+(5++) save, the only thing to look out for is that they regain a wound each turn, and that they are characters of course
AND on a very important note: the 5++ is an upgrade for the cryptek, if he doesnt buy it, he has no 5++, furthermore he cant take the 5++ and the new flying disk on the same cryptek

indeed it is a relic, screen is everything, a unit of kabalites would suffice, anything that keeps them out of rapid fire range, as this is not an special rule, he can do this trick on turn 1.

I'd definitely say prioritize the Destroyers if you can. Since you're bringing Black Heart you'll be looking to counter the Extermination Protocol stratagem. It will let his Destroyers re-roll all failed hits and wounds for that shooting phase.

Necrons are slow, you'll be able to outmaneuver them easily. Most important is keep them out of rapid fire range. Even though the cloak will allow him to deep strike, it will just be the relic bearer and one unit so just screen them out with a decent sized unit of kabalites and you'll be fine.

The wraiths will be fast but they're mainly a huge distraction trying to keep you from taking out the real firepower (the Destroyers).

Clincher37 wrote:

I'd definitely say prioritize the Destroyers if you can. Since you're bringing Black Heart you'll be looking to counter the Extermination Protocol stratagem. It will let his Destroyers re-roll all failed hits and wounds for that shooting phase.

Necrons are slow, you'll be able to outmaneuver them easily. Most important is keep them out of rapid fire range. Even though the cloak will allow him to deep strike, it will just be the relic bearer and one unit so just screen them out with a decent sized unit of kabalites and you'll be fine.

The wraiths will be fast but they're mainly a huge distraction trying to keep you from taking out the real firepower (the Destroyers).

Well, I actually do know that he likes to run a Destroyer-heavy list. That is why I intend to bring a 6 ravager spearhead. The Destroyer's weapons are all 24" right, along with 5" movement? I should be able to just keep out of his range. However, these Wraiths, while perhaps serving as a distraction, will also be fast enough to chase my ravager bubble or close in on another key unit. If I am just supposed to ignore them, won't they end up lokcing down something important in CC? Almost seems like I need a Kab screen against the relic + something to hold down the wraiths, if only for a turn.

Also, what stratagems do I need to be on the lookout to counter? Extermination Protocols will definitely be one if he gets in shooting range but what else?

Will probably post an experimental list sometime later today to get any last tweaks perfected.

destroyers have a 10" movement

wraiths do quite a bit of damage with the new codex, especially against our paper boats

if you blow up his monolith/ night scythe he can use emergency invasion beams to let the unit disembark, if you counter it the unit is destroyed,counter repair subroutines to get wraiths back, blood rites to fight a second time if he plays novokh dynasty and enhanced invasion beams to set up 2 units from a monolith or night scythe

AzraeI wrote:

destroyers have a 10" movement

wraiths do quite a bit of damage with the new codex, especially against our paper boats

if you blow up his monolith/ night scythe he can use emergency invasion beams to let the unit disembark, if you counter it the unit is destroyed,counter repair subroutines to get wraiths back, blood rites to fight a second time if he plays novokh dynasty and enhanced invasion beams to set up 2 units from a monolith or night scythe

Yikes 10" is quite a bit worse. Can Destroyers advance and shoot, or do they carry Heavy weapons? As long as they cant advance and shoot and their weapon range is 24", I should be able to keep just 2" out of their effective threat range with 36" ravager shots.

Or, would it be better to go with obsidian rose to make sure and stay out of range in exchange for rerolling 1s to wound?

I would probably still include an auxiliary support detachment of Black Heart for the Strategem and maybe the Warlord Trait.

they have heavy weapons but dont suffer the penalty for moving, but if he uses the sautekh dynasty trait he can advance and treat them as assault weapons, but the funny thing is, destroyers are INFANTRY so they can get the +1 to hit from my will be done

i really dont know, destroyers are tough to deal with

AzraeI wrote:

they have heavy weapons but dont suffer the penalty for moving, but if he uses the sautekh dynasty trait he can advance and treat them as assault weapons, but the funny thing is, destroyers are INFANTRY so they can get the +1 to hit from my will be done

i really dont know, destroyers are tough to deal with

Hmm that is very problematic. I see two possible solutions:

A: Going Obsidian Rose with my Ravagers so that I can stay out of their shooting range in exchange for rerolling ones to wound

B: Running several reaver squads to try and tie down the Destroyers in CC for as many turns as possible. Just how good are they in melee? While they are tied down I can focus fire on like a different Destroyer squad or the wraiths or a vehicle or a cryptek or whatever.

This is going to be a very tight game.

Necrons aren't too tough to deal with. Destroyers are expensive, and most players invest a lot of points in them. They should be 1st priority. If he brings tomb blades, they should be a high priority as well. They can out out a lot of shots. Immortals with MWBD are pretty brutal. A unit of 10 can easily dish out close to 20 woinds.

Other than that, most players are running Mephrit dynasty, which gives them -1 AP at half range, so make sure to keep distance.

destroyers are like marines in cc, but mind you they can FLY, only wyches tie them down "reliably"

@merse24 thats right, you have to take out their fast and heavy hiting units first, destroyers are both, once the necrons have lost their punch and speed its easy to outmanouvre them

another handy trick (i could scream every time this happens to me) is to surround the last model in a unit, they have to reanimate if at the start of the movement phase and must be placed in coherency with a model that was not reanimated and cant be placed within an inch to enemy models
3 kabalites could potentially block the reanimations for 19 warriors

and morale, they have a few handy tricks to circumvent this, a warlord trait, a stratagem (must cancel with agents of vect) and rerolls, dont count on morale to get rid of the last destroyer or warrior

AzraeI wrote:

destroyers are like marines in cc, but mind you they can FLY, only wyches tie them down "reliably"

@merse24 thats right, you have to take out their fast and heavy hiting units first, destroyers are both, once the necrons have lost their punch and speed its easy to outmanouvre them

Wouldnt reavers tie them down too? Sure they just fall back and shoot them but that just means they wasted that shooting phase. Especially if I can position it so that I can encircle a model and prevent the unit from falling back.

Definitely Wyches with Shardnets and Impalers will help too, probably going to WWP 2 units of 10.

no they can fly over the reavers and then shoot whatever they want and their weapons are D2, practically designed to kill reavers, D2 is wasted on wyches, but as I said, they shoot what they want

One last thing, they're shooting is primarily 24", so make sure you deploy 36" away and you'll be fine. If he brings the ctan share of the deceiver, he'll be able to pull off some deployment shenanigans, so be aware of that. You'll still want to deploy carefully and screen

AzraeI wrote:

no they can fly over the reavers and then shoot whatever they want and their weapons are D2, practically designed to kill reavers, D2 is wasted on wyches, but as I said, they shoot what they want

Jeez the situation seems to just keep getting worse and worse. I can only DS 2 Wych squads and even then only on turn 2 and may not even make the charge... So What is the best solution?

I will probably still go with a reaver squad or two to take out crypteks but could really use a way to slow down these destroyers.

merse24 wrote:

One last thing, they're shooting is primarily 24", so make sure you deploy 36" away and you'll be fine.  If he brings the ctan share of the deceiver, he'll be able to pull off some deployment shenanigans, so be aware of that.  You'll still want to deploy carefully and screen

well they will probably also be able to advance and shoot so 42" away since I will have to use Obsidian Rose to keep out of their threat range.

Wow it seems like he has multiple ways to deep strike: this relic, this ctan shard, and a stratagem. How do each of these work exactly, and which ones would be the most likely for him to use with a Destroyer heavy list?

Also, he will probably even run a unit of Heavy Destroyers, which I cant outrange even with Obsidian Rose. I could really use some kind of net here, or even a mere spiderweb to slow their forces down a bit giving me more chances to shoot. DSing sharnet wyches will help but...

it greatly depends which dynasty he plays

the relic lets him transport a character wielding the relic and one infantry unit at the end of the movement phase just like "deepstrike"
the ctan shard lets him transport d3 units + the shard itself before the first turn, but he must stay more than 12" away
the stratagems only work if he has a night scythe or a monolith that was destroyed, if he has those, they act like normal transports

heay destroyers? they are somewhat underwhelming compared to normal ones, so my advice would be:
shoot them

So here is an expirimental list designed to try and bumrush and lock down his Destroyers with Wyches. 1 squad in a raider, 2 coming in thru DS. Reavers are going to be advancing through their front lines and charging their crypteks. Mathhammer says that a squad of 9 will almost certainly wipe a cryptek in a single charge.

Also decided that the 6+ FNP and rerolling 1s to wound is better than keeping out of range for my Ravagers. Tell me what you guys think and any edits you think I should make.

Kabal of the Black Heart Spearhead Detachment: +1CP, 822 Points
Archon w/SplinterPistol+VenomBlade+WritoftheLivingMuse - 72
Ravager w/DisintigratorCannons - 125
Ravager w/DisintigratorCannons - 125
Ravager w/DisintigratorCannons - 125
Ravager w/DisintigratorCannons - 125
Ravager w/DisintigratorCannons - 125
Ravager w/DisintigratorCannons - 125
Cult of the Red Grief Battalion Detachment: +5CP, 860 Points
Succubus w/BlastPistol+TheBloodGlaive - 70
Succubus w/ShardnetandImpaler - 65
10 Wyches w/3ShardnetandImpalers - 95
10 Wyches w/3ShardnetandImpalers - 95
10 Wyches w/3ShardnetandImpalers - 95
Raider w/DisintigratorCannon - 80
9 Reavers w/3GravTalons - 180
9 Reavers w/3GravTalons - 180
Kabal of the Poisoned Tongue Battalion Detachment: +5CP, 318 Points
Archon w/SplinterPistol+VenomBlade - 72
Archon w/SplinterPistol+VenomBlade - 72
10 Kabalites - 60
10 Kabalites - 60
9 Kabalites - 54
2000 Points, 14 CP, Requires Prizes of the Dark City and Webway Portal for the 2 Wych Squads

To be honest, with 6 ravagers, I don't think you will have a problem killing the destroyers. If you are concerned with him going first, you can deep strike a couple of them that you can't hide.

All in all, I think you will be fine and should just see how you go. I think your list is pretty tough for a necron player to deal with. Just thinking of how I would take your list on, seems fairly daunting to me. Knowing that you can take out my long range shooting at ease and then stay out of arms reach of my necron units.

Also a side not about the crypteks. The 5++ only works for friendly <dynasty> infantry models in the shooting phase, that are within 3''. all his characters have to be really close to squads in order for them to function. so it is quite easy to get multi charges off with reavers.