Dark Eldar vs. Knight Army

It's likely that I'll be fighting a Knight-based army soon (specifically a Paladin, a Crusader, and 2 Warglaives), and I'm looking for some general advice.

We're playing 1750pts, so I'm not sure if his army will be entirely Knights (might have some Admech or something as well), I only know that it will definitely contain the above 4 knights.

Any advice when it comes to tactics or list-building?

Dark Lances, Dark Lances and some Dark Lances.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Dark Lances, Dark Lances and some Dark Lances.

Alright then, I've got some more specific questions for anyone who has the time:

- I usually run Kabal as the core of my army. Any advice on which Kabal I should use? Poison Tongue is my favourite and the one I normally use, but it seems like they'll be lacklustre here.

- I can support my Kabal with either 2 units of 3 Grotesques and a Talos, or 3 units of 3 Reaver Jetbikes (plus 5-10 wyches, if you think they're better than Kabalites). Do you think one of these would be a better choice?

- Any advice regarding target-priority for the Knights I mentioned?

CWE patrol w/ Doomseer, ×5 rangers and a jinxlock.
380 pts but will eventually increase your damage output if you don't mind playing nice with your cousins

Poisoned Tongue might not be too bad an idea.
Keep in mind that you'll still have a load of poison shots, even if you take as many Lances as possible. You'll have Splinter Rifles, and being able to reroll your To-Wound rolls, even if just some of them, will help a little bit.

On support, I say don't bother with Grots. They won't help.
Talos will be a good choice with Blasters or Heat Lances, but will be a priority target for your opponents. They're durable, and might soak a lot of fire.

Squidmaster wrote:

Poisoned Tongue might not be too bad an idea.
Keep in mind that you'll still have a load of poison shots, even if you take as many Lances as possible. You'll have Splinter Rifles, and being able to reroll your To-Wound rolls, even if just some of them, will help a little bit.

That's a good point.

Squidmaster wrote:

On support, I say don't bother with Grots. They won't help.

Ah, okay. I'd wondered if trying to get the Knights in melee would be a good idea.

Squidmaster wrote:

Talos will be a good choice with Blasters or Heat Lances, but will be a priority target for your opponents. They're durable, and might soak a lot of fire.

Okay. Since I won't be using any other Coven units, there's 2 ways I can get one into my list:
- As an Auxiliary detachment.
- In an Outrider detachment with a Haemonculus and 3 units of Scourges.

The former costs me a command point while the latter requires an HQ choice. Any thoughts on which is the better option?

Yeah, i just don't think Grots have the power needed to do any real damage before they're stomped apart. Ultimately the only advantage to combatr is that they can't use their Invulnerable save, but the bigger ones can Fall back and still shoot and charge. So it doesn't block them up in any way.
Hell, this might actually be an argument for Wyches if you can prevent them from falling back, and I never thought I'd say that.

---

Also, to help put things into perspective on weapons, and to pass the time while I wait for someone, I engaged in recreational mathematics:

Squidmaster wrote:

Yeah, i just don't think Grots have the power needed to do any real damage before they're stomped apart. Ultimately the only advantage to combatr is that they can't use their Invulnerable save, but the bigger ones can Fall back and still shoot and charge. So it doesn't block them up in any way.

Ah, that's a good point.

Squidmaster wrote:

Hell, this might actually be an argument for Wyches if you can prevent them from falling back, and I never thought I'd say that.

Unfortunately, I don't think you can prevent them from falling back. No Escape only works against Infantry, and Knights can ignore Infantry when falling back (so you can't surround them, either).

Squidmaster wrote:

Also, to help put things into perspective on weapons, and to pass the time while I wait for someone, I engaged in recreational mathematics:

45 Lance shots, eh?

So I can kill one with a mere 2100pts of Ravagers.

dvs1 wrote:

CWE patrol w/ Doomseer,  ×5 rangers and a jinxlock.
380 pts but will eventually increase your damage output if you don't mind playing nice with your cousins

I know that I'm saying this constantly but the Knight match-up is 100% one of the situations where the Doom/Jinx power boost is absolutely vital.

Burnage wrote:

dvs1 wrote:

CWE patrol w/ Doomseer,  ×5 rangers and a jinxlock.
380 pts but will eventually increase your damage output if you don't mind playing nice with your cousins

I know that I'm saying this constantly but the Knight match-up is 100% one of the situations where the Doom/Jinx power boost is absolutely vital.

Alternatively, I could just play my Imperial Guard army.

2100 points of ravager to kill a 375ish point model lol. I don't think months are broken but I do think we are not the best equipped to handle them lol.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Burnage wrote:

dvs1 wrote:

CWE patrol w/ Doomseer,  ×5 rangers and a jinxlock.
380 pts but will eventually increase your damage output if you don't mind playing nice with your cousins

I know that I'm saying this constantly but the Knight match-up is 100% one of the situations where the Doom/Jinx power boost is absolutely vital.

Alternatively, I could just play my Imperial Guard army.

Sure, you could. 225 points of allies in a Dark Eldar list isn't a big ask, though.

I respectfully disagree with the dark lance thought process.  You can field a unit of Kabalites with a blaster for 47 pts and they will force your opponent to split fire between your units.  Disintegrator cannons are better imo.  

As far as obsession goes, I would run Black Heart.  That way you have access to Agents of Vect.  If you damage a knight down a tier, they can still act like they were fully healed.  AoV is a savior. Also giving vehicles that do not usually get bonuses from Power from Pain a 6+++ is nice.

Mhh, what weapons do those knights carry? I don't have the datasheet at hand.
Could it be an option to take obsidian rose blaster warrior squads and hide them in buildings. Also haywire talos units should be good (they are vehicles are they)?

The Red King wrote:

2100 points of ravager to kill a 375ish point model lol. I don't think months are broken but I do think we are not the best equipped to handle them lol.

You say that, but this isn't like we're using a Kabalite squad where 4/5 of the models are stuck using poison. That's 2100pts of dedicated anti-vehicle weaponry needed to kill a ~375pt model.

It's like the fun of 7th edition Wraithknights all over again.

Burnage wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Burnage wrote:

dvs1 wrote:

CWE patrol w/ Doomseer,  ×5 rangers and a jinxlock.
380 pts but will eventually increase your damage output if you don't mind playing nice with your cousins

I know that I'm saying this constantly but the Knight match-up is 100% one of the situations where the Doom/Jinx power boost is absolutely vital.

Alternatively, I could just play my Imperial Guard army.

Sure, you could. 225 points of allies in a Dark Eldar list isn't a big ask, though.

It's a pretty big ask when I don't own any Eldar models and have no desire to use them even if I did.

Haywire.
Then (and only then), blasters.

Dodge that5++ (sometimes 4++) of them.

What about Haywire Blasters?

2 units of 4 managed to put 16 wounds on a shadowsword last game - With the first unit absolutely whiffing their roll.

Blackheart is definitely a good shout. 6+ feel no pain on vehicles is very tasty and really helps string them along.

Lightning fast reflexes is currently my best friend against knights and big scary tank armies.

closecraig wrote:

What about Haywire Blasters?

2 units of 4 managed to put 16 wounds on a shadowsword last game - With the first unit absolutely whiffing their roll.

Blackheart is definitely a good shout. 6+ feel no pain on vehicles is very tasty and really helps string them along.

Lightning fast reflexes is currently my best friend against knights and big scary tank armies.

THIS ^

And the fact that a unit of 5 scourges with 4 blasters is only 128 points.

Oh, regarding Obsidian Rose, I don't think it would help - the Knights' weapons will out-range my Dark Lances even with the bonus.

UnholyAzash wrote:

closecraig wrote:

What about Haywire Blasters?

2 units of 4 managed to put 16 wounds on a shadowsword last game - With the first unit absolutely whiffing their roll.

Blackheart is definitely a good shout. 6+ feel no pain on vehicles is very tasty and really helps string them along.

Lightning fast reflexes is currently my best friend against knights and big scary tank armies.

THIS ^

And the fact that a unit of 5 scourges with 4 blasters is only 128 points.

5 Scourges with 4 Haywire is only 92pts.

Or with Dark lances - 12 units of 5, with four Dark Lances is 140pts.
12 units would cover the requirement. 1424pts would cover it.

Squidmaster wrote:

Or with Dark lances - 12 units of 5, with four Dark Lances is 140pts.
12 units would cover the requirement. 1424pts would cover it.

Damn rule of 3 is messing this up!

If you have HWB's they will help, also if you have Harlequins bikes add HWC's they help a lot more.

I wouldn't completely write off Coven. Yeah Grots will struggle to do much meaningful damage, but Wracks will be a very frustrating unit for Knights. At 9 pts/model, you can field enough for a Batallion pretty easily.

Against Knights, I would focus primarily on objectives. Use your ObSec units and just win the game on Objectives. Yeah it's not the most fun way to play, but it's a win nonetheless. And in my opinion, against Knights, Wracks do this the best. 4+ invuln, so they are ignoring the AP of the Knights weapons, also, 1W each, so they ignore the high damage of some of their weapons.

The big knights are not scary at all, sure they will shoot a lot, but they also are 600+ pts after guns, its going to be 1 knight and some little things, kill everything else.

The problem is 100% Armiger's, they are DIRT cheap for what they do, 174pts for 2 Heavy 2D3 S7 -1 3D Ignore the penalty to hit rolls for moving and firing this Heavy weapon.

They are cheaper, better Dreadnoughts, at this point there is 0 reason to take any dreads, they even have an Invul lol.

You can take them in squads as well, meaning the rule of 3 is pointless for them, 9 of them in 1 Detachment is 1500pts, add in a battalion or 2 of IG and you are set.


Edit:

2 Battalions of IG is only 390pts (195pts each), i instead select Sly b.c reason, for 425pts
9 Armigers Helverins at 1566pts
total 1991pts

Thats 60 toops with 6 mortars, and 9 Armiger Helverins

Remember Armigers are 14pts a wound, thats already better than Marines, and they are T7 3+/5++, literally better than marines other than the attacks, well any Multi weapons.

What about a Kabalite horde with Haywire Scourge backups? It's 114 Points for ten, and that nets you three Darklight shots.

The fact is, those Knights are going to plaster any tank you field, Black Heart or not, I think it would be better to exploit their weakness of low rate of fire and target saturation.

Obsidian Rose will be key, you'll want to avoid melee like the plague.