Which Kabal and Coven obsession do you use and why?

Kalmah wrote:

the major problem with FLayed Skull is that the unit that receive the bonus is the model inside the transport, not the transport itself...........it would have been so much better if it was written: models INSIDE a FS transport ignore cover. Suddenly it would have made this obsession one of the best (if not THE best) obsession for our transports (without forgetting the sweet +2M).

The transport also ignores cover. It just doesn't matter for Dark Lances and you're not likely to be running Venoms in 9th at the moment.

Flayed Skull is definitely the Kabal that suffered the most in the transition between editions.

Edit: Wait, I think I misunderstood your point. FS transports giving the bonus to other Kabals or even Cult and Coven units embarked inside them would definitely be strong but also the kind of thing GW absolutely wouldn't do.

lol this is a good example of one little slight change that can makes something unplayable becomes completely broken!

Soulless Samurai wrote:

sekac wrote:

The question is what is the intent with the squad? If you ONLY care about killing vehicles with Trueborn, OR might be the best choice. However, PT trueborn with Metalotoxins is just mathematically superior to OR at dealing wounds. Obviously it is inefficient if you need to be shooting at vehicles turn after turn, but when you need a vehicle dead in a turn, PT are your best bet.

Would you be willing to show me the math on that?

I ask because it seems that you would run into the exact same problem against vehicles that you do against Marines - your poison weapons are all AP0 D1. It hardly seems like the most efficient use of Potent Metallotoxins, let alone when it requires a significant sacrifice in terms of Kabal choice (and CP).

Just in terms of their poison weapons, 7 PT rifles in FR range (I'm assuming you're using the special and Heavy weapons on the squad) put ~2.59 wounds on a vehicle with a 3+ save. Meanwhile, an OR unit puts 1.94 wounds on the same vehicle but then also gets a reroll to wound with either their D3+3 damage Dark Lance (to which I'd give priority) or one of their D6 damage Blasters.

Well sure! But just to clarify, I was comparing the anti-tank power of a standard OR squad (an anti-tank unit whose performance I assume is sufficient for you otherwise you wouldn't take them) compared to PT with Metalotoxins on the turn where it's needed.


Against T7, 3+ vehicle
OR:
1 Lance: 1×(5/6)×((2/3)+(2/3)(1/3))×5=3.7
2 Blasters: 2×(5/6)×(2/3)×3.5=3.89
14 Poison: 14×(5/6)×(1/6)×(1/3)=0.65
Total: 8.24


PT:
1 Lance: 1×(5/6)×(2/3)×5=2.78
2 Blasters: 2×(5/6)×(2/3)×3.5=3.89
14 Poison: 14×(5/6)×(2/3)×(1/3)=2.59

Total: 9.26


I'm not saying PT make better tank hunters, they don't. But tank hunting isn't typically useful throughout an entire game. It is usually valuable early in the game but loses power as tanks die. PT can do a good OR impression for a strat, but since they are better infantry/monster hunters, they continue to have a higher value as the battle evolves. And to me, thats the only reason to take trueborn in the first place, the versatility. If all you need to do is kill tanks, then a ravager is much better than trueborn for basically the same cost (not including the raider).

Soulless Samurai wrote:

sekac wrote:

I should clarify there. If only running a single warrior squad as tax, I'd agree, I prefer OR. However, if running MSU, I'd rather lean into the volume fire. Regardless, I don't personally rate blasters very highly. I use Reapers for my anti-tank so blasters are more or less just incidental shooting in my lists.

I do agree with you about Blasters. But even if I was taking Shredders instead, I'd still want OR because trying to buff Splinter Rifles just feels like throwing good points after bad.

But you don't spend points on obsessions. Still, I take your point. Frankly, I don't ever include more than 5 warriors (BH) or 10 trueborn (OR/PT) in a list. If I were to take multiple 5 man squads though, they'd be PT with shredders.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

sekac wrote:

That is a good point. Raiders aren't necessarily going to point you at which kabal to take because the Raiders can also choose to be of the Cult or Coven subfaction as well. The one reason to make a Raider PT is if it is carrying units who would benefit greatly from the redeploy PT strat.

The trouble with Cult and Coven is that they tend to provide very few benefits for transports. A lot of their stuff is melee-focussed and much of Coven only works on non-vehicles. By and large, it seems like your choices boil down to a DT Raider with a Disintegrator or else a Dark Creed Raider for the aura.

You're right about the PT strat, though I'm perhaps biased as I played loads of games as PT in 8th and never wound up using it once.

I would actually take a DT raider with a dark lance over pretty much anything else too. The obligatory 1 BH raider and everything else DT (unless leaning into the PT redeploy strat). I'm a sucker for spike damage and it's mathematically superior to any other lance. No re-rolls but +1 to wound and +1 damage more than compensate.

Flayed Skull has fallen pretty hard. I would rather build a custom Kabal with the +2" movement.

But its not like we are lacking in choices, so we shouldent complain too hard

fisheyes wrote:

But its not like we are lacking in choices, so we shouldent complain too hard

Like we always say in our gaming group: Dont like it? Play Marines...

sekac wrote:

But you don't spend points on obsessions.

I was thinking more in terms of opportunity cost but you're right, I shouldn't have said 'points'.

Also, thank you for the math. I'm still not sure about PT but I'll freely accept that you're right about it being better against vehicles with the aid of that stratagem.

sekac wrote:

Frankly, I don't ever include more than 5 warriors (BH) or 10 trueborn (OR/PT) in a list. If I were to take multiple 5 man squads though, they'd be PT with shredders.[/color]

Out of interest, do you find Shredders at all useful against vehicles or do you use them exclusively against infantry?

fisheyes wrote:

But its not like we are lacking in choices

The Haemonculus's wargear section begs to differ.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

The Haemonculus's wargear section begs to differ.

Man, are you negative. Everytime you write, there is at least one rant in it.
It really gets depressing, you know...
I bet, you look in both directions when crossing a one way street.

Haha, we are going the wrong way because you guys dont have the correct speed limits. What the heck is an "MPH"? (joking)

Actually there is a little bit of tech available for the humble Haemi.

Vex Mask
Fear Incarnate
Poisoners Ampule
Flensing Blade
Twisted Animator (this is kinda reaching though).

I have personally cut the Haemi out of my current Tournament lists, mostly because our Codex just has so many good options I dont want to spend the points/Characters on a Haemi.

In my Fun lists I alwasy bring a Haemi, 10 Haemoxytes and 2x10 Wracks with Twisted Animator. My beer hammer group have learned to not shoot at any Wracks unless they are very confident they can wipe them XD

personally i see my Haemi only as +1T walking aura and a healer for my Monsters/Grotesque and in some case, reanimator as stated by @fisheyes

They're really far from the beatstick that are the Succubus or the Djinn Archon (or the PT Agonizer Archon)

Sad that they are the most expensive of our HQ :/

But the 'only +1T' Aura is really good. T5 Wracks are very durable for their points.

ha don't worry, they fulfill their role pretty decently....and then some
i'm not saying that they are bad, just that they are our most expensive regular HQ while being....how can i say it.....not that flashy! lol

Haemonculi could drop 10 or 20 points very easily and I don't think anyone would sniff. They have some uses but right now they're the heaviest tax to running a Realspace Raid.

Burnage wrote:

Haemonculi could drop 10 or 20 points very easily and I don't think anyone would sniff. They have some uses but right now they're the heaviest tax to running a Realspace Raid.

I would add that ALL Coven units minus Wracks need a 10-20 point reduction to make them  competitive with our more points efficient units like Wyches and Incubi.  Grotesques should be 30ppm and Talos probably need to be around 90-100.  A Master Haemonculous should be 70-80.

Zenotaph wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

The Haemonculus's wargear section begs to differ.

Man, are you negative. Everytime you write, there is at least one rant in it.
It really gets depressing, you know...

I apologise, clearly I was mistaken. All praise and glory to Games Workshop for relieving me of the agony of choosing which weapon I would like my Haemonculus to be equipped with. I was initially dejected that I could not use my converted Hexrifle-Haemonculus but I see now that I brought this on myself by sinning against the sanctity of a monopose Games Workshop model. I shall immediately rectify my mistake by buying a new Haemonculus, pure in its perfection, which is the only Haemonculus model I shall ever use from now on. I shall also buy a Citadel Self-Flagellation Device (TM) and look up the appropriate number of strikes to make up for my grievous offence.

Zenotaph wrote:

I bet, you look in both directions when crossing a one way street.

As opposed to "Hmm, I think I hear a truck coming the other way but that couldn't possibly happen because this is a one-way street. I suppose I could turn my head that way and find out, but that would be dreadfully pessimistic of me. Instead, I'll just look the other way and walk out into the street. After all, there's a little blue sign to indicate that this is a one-way street, so any trucks coming the other way are purely figments of my imagination."

Ah, escaping to sarcasm. But its to be expected from a salt shaker. Nothing new here...
I think, I'll be better off, ignoring your future posts and hope you change to playing Marines. Or Monopoly...

Right now I'm riding:

-Strife for Cults. CoS is just silly good, GW should ban every campaign book from competitive enviroment and just fix Codexes, they're not able to write balanced campaigns and they will never be. CoS Strife is just ludicrous good, so here we go.

-BH for Kabal. Even with no RSR (which I never play), BH still the best overall imho. +1 PfP means giving 5++ on T3 on everything, or advance+charge on T1 for everything (non mercs, but you don't care much). BH have the best Archon Courts, and between rerolling hit/wound personally I prefer the first just because you're always rolling more hit rolls than wound rolls during the game. Just because wound rolls happens on successed hit rolls. Make it simple: shooting with 1 Disintegrator, you will always roll 3 dice to hit, but not always 3 dice to wound, so in fact the BH reroll is simply more solid: you always have it, and if you don't it's just because you already hit with everything.
Plus, you have Vect (which is always good for free).
HONORABLE MENTION: one build with Poisoned Tongue is really, really good and understimated. If you run 2 or 3 Voidravens, or 2 Void + Tantalus, go PT! Being able to put them on reserves after the initiative roll push them from being "meh" choices into "really good" choices.


-Coven, DarkTecnomancers with 6 Chronos. I'm in love with Chronos, they're just amazing. Good against Marines, good against hordes (blast), buffs up other units, pretty tough, and for 3CP you can flank all 6 of them.

Got in a game last weekend against a competitive DA player.

Once again Obsidian Rose just rocked socks. At one point I forgot to measure my Lance Ravager range, and found that I was 38.6" away from the intended target. Because of OR I was fine, but that was awfully close.

Plus those re-rolls when you are wounding on 4s (because Inner Circle/Trans Human) are so clutch.

I really want to try out Poison Tongue for the redeploy, but OR is just too good to pass up IMHO.

CoS once again was clutch. The threat of double attacking Wyches meant a whole Terminator block attacked them instead of more important units.

PoF wracks once again ate an unreasonable amount of fire power. Seriously, 3x10 of these bad boys/girls sitting in cover are a NIGHTMARE to deal with. If you have not run them yet, please do! (I find that you need 3x10, any less is not enough. Generally left with 3-5 at the end of a battle)

How are those Wracks equipped, besides ECWs?

Hmm, and what Units were more important than your Wyches?

Naked except for the ECW (pun intended ). They still need to get played pretty conservatively, but I have found that putting 10 on one flank, and 2x10 on the other, means that a few survive until late game, when there isnt much left to deal with them.

I only take 15 wyches (5+10) for hoard clearing and for doing the various CoS janks. Draz, Succubus, Archon and 15 Incubi are the real Punch in the list. Trueborn and Ravager throw down the hurt at range. I also run 9 Reavers, but those are distraction Carnifexs, and rarely do anyting other than say "hey look at me! I can be scary, maybe, sometimes!"

If I were to say the most "important", it would probably be the Scourge/Mandrakes. Those guys just score points and win games. I left the mandrakes out too far and they evaporated, but the Scourges went on to score 2 ROD points, making it impossible for the opponent to stop my win (I went second so was able to score 15 primary at end of Turn 5, the only primary I scored all game!)

Never tried Hexrifles? I know, you dont like Ossefactors.

Ive tried them a few times, but Wrack firepower has never really done it for me (outside DT Liquifiers, which I fought against for the longest time before drinking the Kool-Aid and joining the party).

I have played against DT Hexrifles/Ossifactors, and while the threat is scary, it didnt actualy affect the game.

Take my advice with a grain of salt. I am playing Competitive, so they may do good work on a beer-hammer table, especially if you are playing against a non-competitive opponent with a non-competitive army/list.

IMHO those points are better spent on Raider upgrades or Scourge weapons.