1500 point list vs GK psyfleman / razorback spam

Hi all,

I am a new player and I have been playing against a friend who uses GK. Currently he runs a 1500 pt list which I have been having some trouble against. His list essentially consists of:

2 psyfleman dreadnoughts
2 razorbacks
1 purifier squad
1 squad of terminators
1 GK strike squad
(The rest of the list varies from time to time but he is sure to include these models.)

A friend of mine has suggested this list below to counter the GK army and I would like to get some views on the viability of the list. I have several comments on the list too but would like to hear what the experts here have to say first =)

HQ
Lelith Hesperax

Elites
4 Trueborn w 2 darklance in venom w/ 2nd splinter cannon 163pts
4 Trueborn w 2 darklance 98pts
4 Trueborn w 2 darklance 98pts

Troops
10 Wyches with shardnet and haywire in raider with disintegrator cannon and flickerfield 200 pts
8 Wyches with shardnet, hekatrix with agonizer, all with haywire grenades (joined by lelith Hesperax) in raider with disintegrator cannon and flickerfield 208 points
9 Wyches with shardnet, hekatrix with agonizer, all with haywire grenades in raider with disintegrator cannon and flickerfield 210 pts

Heavy Support
Ravager with 3 disintegrator cannons and flickerfield 115
Ravager with 3 disintegrator cannons and flickerfield 115
Ravegar with 3 disintegrator cannons and flickerfield 115

1497

The list works by essentially using the ravagers to take out the GK infantry, while the wyches and trueborn take out the psyflemen / razorbacks.

Hmmm if nothing else it'll be a right laugh firing 36 S5 AP2 shots at those silvery gits! I think you'll have a really fun game with this list.

Some thoughts of me:

- Wyches are a bad way to take out AT in the early phase of the game. They will get shot to death the turn after they charged a tank or will get counter charged by something if they faced a Dread. (and still face cuz its highly rare that you kill a Dread in one round with grenades due to their special rule. )

- Lelith is 2x the price of a Succubus with Agoniser, but worse against MEQ. I would never take her and I don't know why someone would consider her for something else than slapping grots.

Maybe I would play her once in my life in a "I don't care how the game ends lets just play as random and funny as possible" game, but you should consider taking serious stuff since your enemy is doing that too. I would place my bet on Haemos with Liquifiers for the Wyches.

- While Disintegrators sound good on the paper vs MEQ, you will get problems to get them out of their tanks. 6 Dark lances (which are highly immobile and easy countered with some Terrain on the board) are not enough. That's maybe enough to shake one of his metal boxes. If you want to use Disintegrators, keep them on the raiders, but I would highly recommend to take them of your ravagers.

As much as i'd hate to admit it, i agree with sleepy on lelith. I love her art in the dex...but thats all. Against guard and bolter bitc...i mean sisters of battle and tau, she is good, for they are low-ish ws, t3.
I havent tried succubus before so i cant comment on that. Some like her...
Again, it pains me to do so, but shes right in the disies. Although i run them, if i take ravagers, i dont change them to disints, unless i am six quadrillion percent shure my opponent is taking a foot list.

If you want to wreck havoc, use vect, 5-6 incubi, 1 haem with liquifire in a raider, or, as i recently learned, vect with bloodbrides with 3 razorflails, a syren and an agoniser in a raider.
Add 2 blasterborn in venom, 3 ravagers and fill out the rest with 2 warriors with blaster in venom and as meny 7-8 model wyches with heka, agooniser and haywire in raiders as you can. Oh, and get haems for the wyches FnP is a real kicker...so far as 5th ed goes on

what i would use is a very standard list:
archon w pgl, shadow, c.drug, ago 145
6 incu 132
haemi with liquifire 60
raider with ff 70

blasterborn 108
venom with dual cannon 65
blasterborn 108
venom with dual cannon 65

warriors with blaster 60
venom with dual cannons 65
warriors with blaster 60
venom with dual cannons 65

H.Support...i prefer RWJ and VRB, but thats for me, others will 90% of the time take 3 ravegers with flickerfield

Ravager with flickerfield 115
Ravager with flickerfield 115
Ravager with flickerfield 115

this is 1348 pts.

you can remove a squad of warriors in venom to replace them with wyches with a spec weapon, a heka with agoniser and add a haem with liquifire in a raider.
1501 pts.

and you basically have 20 lance shots per turn...well...for one turn if you start you will...probably...have

Enfernux wrote:

As much as i'd hate to admit it, i agree with sleepy on lelith.

Do you hated it because of me or because of lelith? Choose you words wisely...

Btw. using Vect + 9 Bloodbrides on 1500 points is... kinda crazy, since they already cost around 500 points.

Since you put a bounty on my head... nah, just screwin. I like lelith, just not vs GK. Or any TEQ for that instance. MEQ...well...maybe.

I've never faced GKs, but I've read that Malys can be very effective, not least because of her immunity to psychic powers.

SleepyPillow wrote:

Some thoughts of me:

- Wyches are a bad way to take out AT in the early phase of the game. They will get shot to death the turn after they charged a tank or will get counter charged by something if they faced a Dread. (and still face cuz its highly rare that you kill a Dread in one round with grenades due to their special rule. )

- Lelith is 2x the price of a Succubus with Agoniser, but worse against MEQ. I would never take her and I don't know why someone would consider her for something else than slapping grots.

Maybe I would play her once in my life in a "I don't care how the game ends lets just play as random and funny as possible" game, but you should consider taking serious stuff since your enemy is doing that too. I would place my bet on Haemos with Liquifiers for the Wyches.

- While Disintegrators sound good on the paper vs MEQ, you will get problems to get them out of their tanks. 6 Dark lances (which are highly immobile and easy countered with some Terrain on the board) are not enough. That's maybe enough to shake one of his metal boxes. If you want to use Disintegrators, keep them on the raiders, but I would highly recommend to take them of your ravagers.

Thanks, I agree with your points. You also raised a new point which I did not see - that he could keep his infantry inside his tanks (currently, he has a habit of keeping his infantry outside the tank and using the tank to give cover / block LOS)

As for Malys - very interesting, I have considered fielding her against GK before, but sadly she is only going to shield one unit from psychic attacks. I can only imagine it being used to prevent insta-death from force weapons, or perhaps negating the effects of sanctuary.

I had actually fielded the army list below and managed to take out both dreadnoughts and one razorback (I did not deploy anything on turn 1 and went full DS).

HQ

Haemonculus with liquifier
Duke Sliscus

Troops

10 Kabalite warriors with splinter cannon on raider with flickerfield
10 Kabalite warriors with splinter cannon on raider with flickerfield
7 wyches with shardnet/impaler + hekatrix with agoniser, all with haywire grenades, on raider with flickerfield (with haemonculus)

Elite
3 kabalite trueborn with blasters on venom with extra splinter cannon
3 kabalite trueborn with blasters on venom with extra splinter cannon
3 kabalite trueborn with 2 splinter cannons on venom with extra splinter cannon (with the Duke)

Heavy Support

Ravager with flickerfield
Ravager with flickerfield
Ravager with flickerfield

froidcoeur wrote:

all with haywire grenades

Just a rules note. Haywire Grenades are an all or none upgrade. They way you have it written makes it appear that you may think otherwise and I just wanted to make sure you know the correct rule for those.

yeah, sry bout that, it just comes with using hwg on all of them, not thinking as in i must all or nothing it. I know the rule, but non the less i alwayse do it full

Enfernux wrote:

yeah, sry bout that, it just comes with using hwg on all of them, not thinking as in i must all or nothing it. I know the rule, but non the less i alwayse do it full

Is froidcoeur your second account?

any admin can check, it aint. I thought i had written it i tend to do so for not paying attention XD

Thanks, Tordeck, for the clarification. In any case, seeing how difficult it is to take down a psyfleman with wyches, I would definitely want all of them to be equipped with HWG

To clarify, I'm not Enfernux. I'm new to the forum and I'm from Singapore.

Back to the topic, I'm thinking of fielding some reavers and/or scourges to help in taking down those vehicles. My current list does not have any fast attack.

6 reavers w/ 2 blasters - any use?

Split into two units are a good way to hide them (at the cost of kill points....whatever) and Heat Lances are better if you can get into the sweet 9" range. The Lances give better results for riskier play, so it depends on your army style.

I would not recommend Scourges, almost never, but YMMV.

to mathammer it out:
reaver with blaster bs4 s8 av max 12
glance 0.44 max is immo for 0.073
pen 0.33 max is eplode, but lets count results 4, 6, 5 0.165
where as with heat lance bs4 s6 av max 12
9"+ glance 0.11 max is wreck - ap1 - for 0.037
9"+ you cant pen av12, but for rhino and razorback with av 11 0.11 max is explode count results 4, 6, 5 for 0.074
and here's where it gets sweet
0-9 glance av12 - except stormravens ceramit cover - 0.33, best is wreck count results 4, 6, 5 for 0.22
0-9 pen av12 - except stormravens ceramit cover -0.38, best is explode count results 4, 6, 5 for 0.259

heat lance is 3 pts cheaper as well, so it brings back its points sooner.

for scourges are fragile, i would recomend haywire blasters, but if you want to shoot some nasties with them also, a heatlance is viable because of the s6 ap1, mostly what you hit is going to fall dead from infantry, but you will have a nightmare of a time vs vehicles