Crimson Hunter vs Swooping Hawks vs Lanceborn

Below is a link to my current army list, this topic is about what to do with 180pts.

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t6729-sky-serpents-1500-1650-w-eldar

My current choice is a Crimson Hunter who will most likely have the Exarch upgrade.

However I have been thinking a lot about Swooping Hawks and the advantages they bring to the table as well as going back to two units of Lanceborn. The Lanceborn faired me fairly well in previous lists and with buffs from the Farseer should surely do better.

I am concerned about lack of anti tank and the Crimson Hunter falling out of the sky a lot. What are your thoughts on the merits of these units, especially in conjunction with my list?

The Crimson Hunter is essentially a one-shot weapon. It will come on, probably destroy its target, and then get blown up (assuming it survives any Interceptor fire that is aimed at it). If it was cheaper I think it would be a better option but I'm not sure the 180 point price tag is worth the money.

Well, I think the units you listed perform very different roles in the first place, so comparing them is kinda hard.

What the crimson hunter does is knock light to medium flyers out of the sky more reliable than our other sources. Then as a secondary role it hunts tanks on the ground. It is also a very fragile vehicle that you have to handle with care and that works best with some form of reserve manipulation likely via autarch to make sure it comes when you want it.

Swooping hawks are primary for that cool large blast ignoring cover grenade pack and then secondary as haywire assaulters in melee. They make for a nice distraction unit and have a duality in possible targets which is a good thing. They can't perform anti air at all.

Lanceborn are ground anti-tank support that can sit comfortably in a ruin and hopefully get ignored a lot. They can't and won't do much else and guide is likely better spent on a ravager as it has one more shot. Assuming you still have a ravager on the table that is.

So, the question is what does your army need more and can your army synergize well with any of these units. swooping hawks work pretty nice every time, but I wouldn't go more than the minimum requirement for large blast grenade pack. They are a harassment unit though, I wouldn't count on them to do all the heavy lifting.

From a target saturation point of view more platforms is generally the better idea given the fragility of the hunter and the air dominance of some armies out there. Still, the Hunter is very unique in its role and thus might be worth keeping.

It depends, really. Try it out!

If your opponent has gone crazy with his flyer movement, the crimson hunter can get some nice rear-armor shots with vector dancer, too. Something for heldrakes and Vendettas to look out for. It is a very fragile 180 points, however. I wouldn't sweat the quad cannons as long as you have a venom or warriors with splinter cannons, they're only as hard to remove as two space marines.

I haven't used them yet, but since their value is so dependent on your opponent I was looking at a small unit of six swooping hawks with an exarch and the Hawk's talon. With six you get the large blast from the grenade packs, the attack doesn't need line of sight, happens as soon as they move on to the table so before interceptor if I'm not mistaken, and the exarch's BS5 gets you slightly more reliable scatters and a great throwing arm for that haywire grenade. You can start them on the table and skyleap immediately for a guaranteed turn 2 arrival, I think, as well. They also fill the role in our army of removing T3, 4+ armor save infantry that poison weapons aren't really super efficient against. These guys clock in just under 120 points.

So you can get a low-impact, dedicated unit and with some of the points you save, looking at your list you can throw blasters or a cannon on your kabalite squads, cannons on your jetbikes, or whatever and give some of your units a little more teeth at the same time.

I've never really been a fan of the trueborn, they seem to cost a premium for some extra lance shots and a statline you're not going to use. Although I have been kicking around the idea of having a dracon with a venom blade hanging out with the assault weapon brigade. Kind of like a "starscream" for the "megatron" that is your warlord

I say Crimson hunter. His fragility is a little bit of illussion. Just get rid of any quadgun or icarus lascannon on turn 1. Then, if you move smart, it should perform his role (like blowing the heldrake to pieces).

Finn wrote:

I say Crimson hunter. His fragility is a little bit of illussion. Just get rid of any quadgun or icarus lascannon on turn 1. Then, if you move smart, it should perform his role (like blowing the heldrake to pieces).

The fragility is far from an illusion. That thing can be shot down by bolters! Vector Dancer will not allow you to avoid all incoming fire. If you evade you have a slightly better chance of survival but at the expense of your shooting.

Dogmar wrote:

Well, I think the units you listed perform very different roles in the first place, so comparing them is kinda hard.

This, pretty much.

Dark Eldar can actually make best use of the Crimson Hunter as they can easily take out Quad-Guns turn one with Venoms.

Stating in a dark eldar forum that a vehicle can be glanced to death by bolters as a reason not to take it is a little silly isn't it?

Just saying I'm pretty sure sky knows how to keep his AV 10 boats afloat particularly when most things hit it on 6s.

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

Stating in a dark eldar forum  that a vehicle can be glanced to death by bolters as a reason not to take it is a little silly isn't it?

Not really. The difference of course is that you're going to have lots of Raiders and Venoms so having a few shot up by Bolters won't impact that much. You're only likely to have one Crimson Hunter, it has a dedicated role that can't easily be compensated for if it's lost and it's pretty damn expensive.

Plus your Raiders and Venoms are almost always going to have a Jink save. The only way you get that with a Crimson Hunter is by evading, at which point it might as well not be on the table.

You also only hit it on 6s which is much better than a 5+ save anyway. Ten marines rapid firing the crimson hunter would manly deal 0.56 hull points to it if it didn't jink. Since you have vector dance and can therefore hug the back of the table getting rapid fired should rarely if ever happen. The only thing you really need to worry about are skyfire units and other planes. With an autarch for reserve manipulation you should be able to arrive after those things get blown up.
I'm not saying its an auto include by any means, but with its agility its a lot less fragile than people give it credit for.

I've seen the Crimson Hunter do really well in a lot of video bat-reps. Eldar Corsair runs one (check him out on youtube he's got a million eldar batreps), and I remember only seeing it die once in the 4-5 bat-reps he used one in. I think the Hunter should be fine provided you get rid of the quad-gun which shouldn't be too hard.

BTW are you running any dissies on your ravagers? Reece from frontline game runs one with dissies and he hammers people with it. It might be useful in taking out the quad-gun. He's got some nice video bat-reps on there as well. He goes by teamzerocomp

Eldar Corsair- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0F837T9YSCf9_K4fUdpKSg
Reece- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD6cBAinJVKv50pVsKp59qA

Personally I've never seen one survive more than a single turn but YMMV. For me, if I'm going to spend that sort of points on a flyer I'd rather ally in CSM and take a proper flyer. But I'd feel a bit dirty doing that as I despise playing against the Helldrake.

Check out some of Eldar Corsair's vids. He's used his quite a bit, and it was rocking. I don't recall him dueling with any flyers, but it was blowing up tanks at a pretty good clip. Also people were raving about their performance in the comments section of his video showing how he painted and magnetized his hunter. Check it out you might be surprised.

I've been taking a look at Eldar Corsairs videos but I've only found a couple so far where he's taken the Crimson Hunter and neither of his opponents had any flyers or AA. I'll carry on looking.

To be honest I can't remember him battling a flyer either... :Pbut my overall point was that its more survivable than you'd think. Take the razorwing for example same stats and still very usefull. Skari used his extensively in a ton of his video bat-reps, and he took it naked without any shields and he raked with it, and it survived a lot of battles, and even those in which it fell, it still put a pounding on the board. Same thing with the Hunter, but when supported it can be deadly and survivable.

Besides when fielding a balanced Eldar army (and especially with balanced DE allies) you are throwing so much at your opponent, that the flyer is far from the number one concern, enabling the Hunter to go after choice targets, whether they be enemy flyers (especially baleflame helldrakes) or enemy armor.