New to Dark Eldar AND 7th Edition... 1850pts list needed vs Ultramarines and Orks

Hi,

after quite a long break I'm back to 40k. I bought a heap of Dark Eldar figs when they came out, mainly because I like the models. Never played with them in 5th or 6th, and now I got a few friends interested in the game again. They play Orks and Ultramarines.
Any help with a decent list vs these two opponents would be greatly appreciated.
These are the units I have access to:

Archon x 2
Lelith
Urien Rakarth

5 Incubi
5 Mandrakes

30 Kabalite Warriors
30 Wyches

1 Venom
2 Raiders

9 Reavers
20+ Hellions (10 new plastics and 10+ of the old metal ones that were given to me)
5 Scourges
Beastmaster (no beasts to go with it yet...)

2 Ravagers
1 Cronos Parasite Engine
3 Talos Pain Engines (old figs that were given to me... don't like them, but free...)
1 Razorwing Jetfighter

I think I have a lot of areas covered here, I mainly lack beast if I want to use the beastmaster; perhaps extra incubi/Mandrakes/Scourges to build up to units of 10, a court is I need one; wracks or grotesques if they would be a good choices in this edition.

I guess it's best to focus on either a Kabalite Warrior-heavy list or a Wych-heavy list, rather than trying to combine them?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Umm... Do you have raiders or venoms?

Lord_Alino wrote:

Umm... Do you have raiders or venoms?

They're listed... 2 Raiders and 1 Venom. I had another flick through the codex yesterday, and it seems more Venoms would be a good way to go, with the upgrade to 6 shots of the splinter cannon...

I probably will try down the track to have a go at playing with a large number of venoms, all loaded with small and relatively cheap units that can hold objectives, but would like to see if I can put something decent down with what I have.

How about a footslogging DE list? Is the webway portal still a worthwhile item to take in this edition?

Remember, I will mainly play vs Ultramarines or Orks at this stage...

>.< I'm derp.

I play foot slogging covens. If you want to win then don't do it, I just play them for fluff.

You could definitely use the two raiders and venom for warriors, use an Archon as the Duke Sliscus in one of the raider squads, bring a squad of 15 Hellions with the beastmaster proxied as the Baron, 2 Ravagers and proxy the Razorwing as a Voidraven.

Lord_Alino wrote:

>.< I'm derp.

I play foot slogging covens. If you want to win then don't do it, I just play them for fluff.

You could definitely use the two raiders and venom for warriors, use an Archon as the Duke Sliscus in one of the raider squads, bring a squad of 15 Hellions with the beastmaster proxied as the Baron, 2 Ravagers and proxy the Razorwing as a Voidraven.

Cool, will work out what I can put in 1850 with what you listed.
What do you put in a foot slogging force?
I like playing fluff as well, and I always try to put together a different type of list, so open to any suggestions.

Alright, I look forward to seeing your list.

ok... I had another look through the figures I have and came up with this for 1850pts.

*Duke Sliscus, plus 9 Kabalite Warriors w/ Raider (Splinter Racks and Flickerfield, Disintegrator Cannon) : 311pts
*10 Warriors, w/ Raider (Splinter Racks and Flickerfield, Disintegrator Cannon) : 170
*10 Warriors, w/ Raider (Splinter Racks and Flickerfield, Disintegrator Cannon) : 170

651pts for the core of the army.

I read through Sliscus' rules and he allows for Low Orbit Rate. With all Warriors able to shoot from the open topped Raiders, I think the splinterracks are worth the points, especially if you can get in 12" Rapid fire range and re-roll all misses. Or, do you try to disembark as fast as you can? In that case, you don't get much out of the splinter racks...
Flickerfield with 5+ invulnerable is a standard upgrade, I guess, Dark Eldar can use all the help they can get to keep their vehicles intact.
The other interesting bonus Sliscus gives is the Contraband rule. With almost 30 Warriors, there are no troops with Combat drugs yet, so perhaps I should get some Wyches in?

Venom w/ Archon and 4 Incubi (Splinter Cannon, Webway Portal) 248pts
*10 Wyches w/ Haywire Grenades: 120
*10 Wyches w/ Haywire Grenades: 120
*10 Wyches w/ Haywire Grenades: 120

The Archon's Venom will move forwards, keeping out of sight if possible, disembark and open the webway, allowing the wyches to enter from reserves a lot closer to the enemy. The Haywire grenades give the army some AT which it didn't have so far...

total so far:
1259pts

*Baron Sathonyx w/ 9 Hellions. 149pts

One of the Baron's assets is that he adds +1 to see who goes first. I have more Hellions, but with the size of the bases etc, isn't it hard to keep them in cover if you field them in large numbers? Or do you just disregard that and try to get in combat with them asap?

total 1508pts

*ravager, Flickerfields 115, 3 Dark Lances (I thought I had 2 ravagers and 2 Raiders, but it's 3 raiders and 1 ravager instead...)
*voidraven, 2 Void Lances, Void Mine,  145

total 1768, leaving enough points to add a few Hellions if need be and whatever necessary upgrades I missed.
Bear in mind, this is using the models I have at the moment (see above)...

Now... where am I going wrong here? Any ideas or comments are much appreciated.

The problem with keeping your wyches in reserve and coming in through a webway portal is, they're melee units. They do their best work in melee, which means the absolute EARLIEST they will be able to do anything is on turn 3. On the other hand, shooty units coming out of a WWP can shoot all they want immediately on arrival. So if you're using a WWP to get shooty units into place quickly, they could be good.

This is what makes WWP lists iffy. And yes, it goes against what would make sense(ie, "Wait, so you're telling me I can come out of this portal right here, right in the enemy's face, and can shoot them, cast at them, and do whatever else I want, but am not allowed to punch them in the face? YEP, THEMS THE RULES.")

So, I'd consider bringing one of those pain engines, or the parasite engine since you now have an open heavy slot.Much more survivable than wyches. Also, you're 1 HQ over the limit, unless you're running multiple force orgs.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

The problem with keeping your wyches in reserve and coming in through a webway portal is, they're melee units. They do their best work in melee, which means the absolute EARLIEST they will be able to do anything is on turn 3. On the other hand, shooty units coming out of a WWP can shoot all they want immediately on arrival. So if you're using a WWP to get shooty units into place quickly, they could be good.

This is what makes WWP lists iffy. And yes, it goes against what would make sense(ie, "Wait, so you're telling me I can come out of this portal right here, right in the enemy's face, and can shoot them, cast at them, and do whatever else I want, but am not allowed to punch them in the face? YEP, THEMS THE RULES.")

So, I'd consider bringing one of those pain engines, or the parasite engine since you now have an open heavy slot.Much more survivable than wyches. Also, you're 1 HQ over the limit, unless you're running multiple force orgs.

well... forgot about the HQ over the limit... so, if you advise against Wyches and Webwayportals, I could get rid of the Venom/Archon and 3 units of Wyches...

so, let's rethink this...

*Duke Sliscus, plus 9 Kabalite Warriors w/ Raider (Splinter Racks and Flickerfield, Disintegrator Cannon) : 311pts
*10 Warriors, w/ Raider (Splinter Racks and Flickerfield, Disintegrator Cannon) : 170
*10 Warriors, w/ Raider (Splinter Racks and Flickerfield, Disintegrator Cannon) : 170
*Baron Sathonyx w/ 9 Hellions. 149pts
*ravager, Flickerfields 115, 3 Dark Lances (I thought I had 2 ravagers and 2 Raiders, but it's 3 raiders and 1 ravager instead...)
*voidraven, 2 Void Lances, Void Mine, 145

2 hq, 3 troops, 1 fast, 2 heavy
1060

If I have the Duke, I really feel like I should capitalize on his stash of drugs... so, more units with Combat drugs...
15 Wyches on foot, incl Hecatrix. Blast pistol & Venom Blade, Hydra Gauntlets and Razor Flail, all Haywire Grenades: 230
10 Bloodbrides, incl Syren, Blast pistol & Venom Blade, Hydra Gauntlets and Razor Flail, all Haywire Grenades: 200pts
10 Hellions, incl Helliarch: 170

Talos Pain Engine, w/ twinlinked Liquifier gun, additional CC weapon:120 (total of 1780pts)
or
5 Reavers: incl Champion w/ 1 blasters, 1 cluster caltrops: 155 (total of 1815pts)

How does that look? Any suggestions which items would be good to spend the last 70 or 35 pts on?

I love the Talos. I'd definetly take it over the Reavers. I've had more success with Chain-Flails than additional CC weapon though. The amount of times I roll a 1 for my attacks is dreadful. My friends hate me rolling the 2 dice, coz one will frequently come up 5/6.

Those are big/expensive squads of Wyches. If you take The Duke and The Baron, you'll have no one to carry the Webway. How are you anticipating them getting into combat?

Another question is what kind of Marine and Ork units do your mates have? I think you might be in trouble if the marine player has a Thunderfire cannon, for example.

I actually like your list for friendly's, minus the wwp.. but I have an idea, just to get you started.

Remove the side lances on that ravager and make 4 raiders (temporary). Keep the basis of your list intact but mechanize at least 2 of those wyches for assault, maybe 3. Get each a trix- vb too. This frees you up for dual taloi and a flyer. Hmm or even make one warrior unit into splinterborn.

Lose the the archon, and the baron. 3 haemonculus would be a better 2nd HQ if your running wyches. They bring FNP tokens and arcane wargear (+ dukes rerolls the wyches will be suped up).

Roll with 5 incubi in the venom. Its the perfect build for them in my experience. I'm currently running that unit and its damn solid. No assault grenades can be worked around or brute forced through against many units.

On vehicle upgrades I suggest losing FFs for night shields and torment grenade launchers on your boats (NS for shooters TGL for assaults). Your boats can jink for 4+ anyway and TGLs will stop orks in their tracks (its been errated to say leadership btw not moral). Go dizzies on all and add grizzly trophies to any warrior raiders and obviously racks.

Hellions arent good lose those until you make a beastpack and they can be beastmasters.
Instead I would run 3x3 reavers each with heat lance. You will love jetbikes in this edition especially against those two armies playing maelstrom of war missions.

So anyway if you take this advice your list will be pretty fast and coordinated in assault and objectives. It will however lack ranged anti tank. Thing is I dont see one ravager fixing that so may as well build a cohesive force in the meantime. Heres a general breakdown based on your list with plenty of room for change (like tl heat lances on the taloi or trip taloi):


HQ
duke sliscus 150
haemonculus, vb, lg 65
haemonculus, vb, lg 65

ELITES
9 trueborn, hwg, 2 sc, raider- sr, ns, gt, tgl 236
5 incubi, venom- 2 sc 175

TROOPS
10 warriors sc, raider- sr, ns, gt 185
8 wyches, hwg, trix- vb, raider- tgl 176
8 wyches, hwg, trix- vb, raider- tgl 176

FA
3 reavers, hl 78
3 reavers, hl 78
3 reavers, hl 78

HS
talos sc, tllg 105
talos sc, tllg 105
voidraven bomber ff, 2 sfm 175

TOTAL 1847

flakmonkey wrote:

Another question is what kind of Marine and Ork units do your mates have? I think you might be in trouble if the marine player has a Thunderfire cannon, for example.

no Thunderfire, luckily...

Thanks Brom, definitely going to keep an eye on your list, and see if I can build up to it and give it a go. Quite a few of the vehicles aren't assembled yet.

I am actually planning a game this Friday vs orks. I expect a few heavy armour troops, some defkoptas, a few warbikes or sumsuch and three lots of 30 orks.

Since I don't have the time to put more together, I'll play with what's assembled/painted:

Duke, 9 warriors incl Syb, raider, blaster, blast pistol, agoniser, flickerfield, splinter racks, Disint cannon @380

10 warriors, incl Syb, raider, blaster, blast pistol, agoniser, flickerfield, splinter racks, Disint cannon @240

Archon, 3 trueborn, w/ 2 splinter cannon, webway portal, shadow field, venom blade, combat drugs, venom w/ duel splinter cannon @261

10 wyches incl hecatrix, HWG, blast pistol, agoniser and PGL @205
10 bloodbrides incl syren, HWG, blast pistol, agoniser and PGL @235

razorwing, splinter cannon, 2 DL, flicker, 2 necro and 2 monomissiles @175

1496pts. Idea would be to have all in reserve, apart from the venom that has to deliver the WWP for the 2 units of wyches to come through.
Necro missiles should punch a decent hole in the blobs of orks I hope.
Loads of poison should help with the toughness of the orks, and AP5 takes care of a lot of their armour I think (been ages sinced I played...)
Just not sure on the Venom with Archon. I NEED it to dleiver the wyches. But it's a pretty expensive delivery system at 261pts... I added it last, after all the rest had bene calculated. If you see any better upgrades and options to add, at the cost of dropping options from the archon or the 3 trueborn with him, let me know.

Gotcha, once you assemble your models post up a new list.

In the mean time and considering what you have painted I would put the archon with the wyches or brides. In fact anywhere BUT the trueborn. They prefer to be at full range shredding infantry all game, dont waste their excellent firepower by putting them in harms way.

I dont think you will like the WWP much but test it out. Also you wont want your whole army in reserve. If at the end of any game turn you have no models on the board you forfeit.. just fyi.

Either way get night shielding on all those skimmers. I just finished a game against orks about an hour ago and night shields were excellent (mistake of no lootas). They will either not exist or feel like cheating and trust me vs orks they are the latter.

Also torment grenade launchers prevented 2 charges from his biker star unit on my ravagers and made him reconsider multi assault involving a raider with TGLs. Both these upgrades are gold vs orks, crons and other short ranged armies.

ok, I see. In that case, I feel like I better drop the whole venom/archon/trueborn idea, as they were only there to deliver the webway in the first place.
That leaves me with 265 and a free HQ slot.

I could put the following figs on table to fill this:
2 Haemons w/ Liq. guns and Venom blades? That'd be 130pts and would give the wyches/bloodbrides perhaps a bit more staying power because of Feel no Pain?
+ Talos, TLLG and SC 105
Leaving 30pts for the Night shields on the 2 raiders and the razorwing.

or

30 pts for the Night Shields, plus
3 reavers, hl 78
3 reavers, hl 78
3 reavers, hl 78

I'd go with the Reavers there, though not sure I'd split them into three squads. Reason being, you can start them in reserve to maximise their survivability, then come on and turbo-boost 36" with your bladevanes over a big blob of orks and land in cover. I play orks and I'd hate to see big units of Reavers against my blob squads. That way you'll have three heat lances too, which should be enough to deal with any armour he brings (watch out for kustom forcefields though).

Make sure you keep the Razorwing away from his bikes as much as possible too. If he doesn't have any Lootas (and he should, they're still amazing), they'll be looking to bring it down with their twin-linked strength five guns. Shoota boyz could also be a problem for it, you really don't want to have to jink because then you can't fire off all that missiley goodness   

I would be tempted if I was you to run the Warriors in one big squad, take the splinter racks off the Raiders and stick the Wyches in them. Footslogging Wyches will achieve precisely nothing, even if they were coming out of a portal, whereas a big squad of Warriors, perhaps with an attached Haemonculus, could achieve a bit more, even if it's only scoring a rear objective. If anyone is going to be stood around in the open (which I realise you have no choice over, given what models you have to hand) it might as well be the guys with the slightly better armour and range, right? Of course, then the Duke has to be deployed with that unit, but on the flipside that means that he's giving his 3+ poisoned ability to a heck of a lot of shots. That's my take on it anyway