Small Point Coven List

Hey guys, I'm a little new here and was hoping to gleam some knowledge.

I'm competing in an Iron Builder League, which is basically where you build/paint 500 points each month for 4 months, etc., etc..

I want to do the first half Coven and the second half Witch Cult so I can use them in the Adepticon Team Tournament next year.

Anyhow, I'm on month 1 of Coven and this is what I've cooked up for my first 500 points:

1 x Hammy w/Hexrifle and Agoniser
10 x Wracks w/ 2 x Liquifiers and Acothyst
10 x Wracks w/ 2 x Liquifiers and Acothyst
1 x Talos w/ Chain Flails, Additional CCW and TL Haywire Blaster

This comes out to 475 points, so I have a little wiggle room.

The first glaring fault is the lack of transport. However, all these games will be played on a 4'x4' or 3'x3' board, so I should be able to just foot slog for the first month.

Is this solid? It feels like it should be able to hold it's own in cramped quarters. My biggest concern is what I'm going to do with my next (and last) 500 points of Coven.

Thoughts? I'm a little stumped here.

Aaroon42 wrote:

I'm competing in an Iron Builder League, which is basically where you build/paint 500 points each month for 4 months, etc., etc..

Man, I gotta find one of those, maybe it'll help me actually paint up and prep the Eldar army I've been sitting on for almost a year.

Quote :

I want to do the first half Coven and the second half Witch Cult so I can use them in the Adepticon Team Tournament next year.

Do you have an idea what your final list will look like? Wyche and COven only pair up so-so in my opinion, and pair "best" as WWP.

Quote :

Anyhow, I'm on month 1 of Coven and this is what I've cooked up for my first 500 points:

1 x Hammy w/Hexrifle and Agoniser
10 x Wracks w/ 2 x Liquifiers and Acothyst
10 x Wracks w/ 2 x Liquifiers and Acothyst
1 x Talos w/ Chain Flails, Additional CCW and TL Haywire Blaster

This comes out to 475 points, so I have a little wiggle room.

The Hexrifle is pretty gawdawful - I'd probably build your Haem with a Liquifier - it's more universal, will be useful when expanding to the Wych Cult, and still pairs well with what the Wracks are doing.

On mini boards you could still footslog okay with this - I'm a mech head myself, and if competitive is what you're looking for mech would be the way to go, small tables or no, but you're not too bad looking.

My next immediate thought is your total lack of range firepower. I have a few easy solutions, though they totally gak with your Coven theme. You may just need to count on FNP to see you through and just keep running forward.

Venom blades on the Acothysts is a good use of your excess points.

Quote :

Is this solid? It feels like it should be able to hold it's own in cramped quarters. My biggest concern is what I'm going to do with my next (and last) 500 points of Coven.

Thoughts? I'm a little stumped here.

Moving into 1000 points you're not going to be able to get away with 100% of your anti-mech being one unit (the Talos). If you insist on keeping a Coven theme the easy solution is Scourges - 5 w. 2 Haywire Blasters are pretty affordable and can really help lock down enemy mech, and they are exceedingly fluffy and also are pretty sweet models.

Two Raider transports (and some juggling of your Wracks) are probably also a very smart investment - it'll speed you up substantially, add long range shooting to the list, and add anti-tank.

That's basically 270 of your upgrade right there. The remaining 230 could easily be used in Wracks in Venoms, another Talos, another Haem, or maybe some Warriors in Venoms (they are fluffy with Coven - just not as obvious)

You should also look forward to what you're hoping to do with 1000 points of Wyches added to the list. I actually think going for a WWP list would be...reasonably competitive and would also meld the two army types together nicely and would be fairly affordable as it's a vehicle light list.

The basic concept would be (at 2000 points);

2 Haems with WWPs in Raiders/Venoms with Wracks.
Some other shooting/alpha strike tools to scare your opponent - Scourges, Trueborn, Warriors, ect. (in my list I use Trueborn instead of Wracks as Haem escorts and also drop down a Ravager - really you just want a couple units on the board that will make him question whether to shoot the Haems or not, and also that can pop open some vehicles for the units coming out of the portal)
Out of the portal can come;
1-2 Talos (vehicle poppers and MEQ mulchers)
2-4 squads of Wyches (size can vary to taste, lets you play with Wych Weapons to taste also)
You could also have a pile of Wracks churn forth too, if you have excess of them.

Hope some of that is helpful,
Thor.

Aaroon42 wrote:

Anyhow, I'm on month 1 of Coven and this is what I've cooked up for my first 500 points:

1 x Hammy w/Hexrifle and Agoniser
10 x Wracks w/ 2 x Liquifiers and Acothyst
10 x Wracks w/ 2 x Liquifiers and Acothyst
1 x Talos w/ Chain Flails, Additional CCW and TL Haywire Blaster

This comes out to 475 points, so I have a little wiggle room.

The first glaring fault is the lack of transport. However, all these games will be played on a 4'x4' or 3'x3' board, so I should be able to just foot slog for the first month.

Is this solid? It feels like it should be able to hold it's own in cramped quarters. My biggest concern is what I'm going to do with my next (and last) 500 points of Coven.

Thoughts? I'm a little stumped here.

My suggestion:

1 x Hammy w/ Liquifier and Power Weapon
10 x Wracks w 2 Liquifier
10 x Wracks w 2 Liquifier
1 x Talos with TL-Liquifier and TL Heat Lance

Thats 425 leaving you 75 points for:
6 x Wracks w Liquifier (5 points in the bank for the next 500)
-or-
Raider with FF and GT or TGL

I don't like the agonizer on the Haem since your going to be attached to a Wrack unit you might as well go with a PW since you have FC and if you attack T3 you're wounding on 3+ no save and T4 is the same on the charge as the Agonizer. On higher T models let the mass poison do its thing. Liquifier is better all around esp on a short table.

Again your Talos can't fleet so you're wasting a nice template before the charge IMHO, I'm of the camp that believes you will kill more with a Liquifier/Std. charge combo then no additional shooting/Chains will. On the short board think about the Heat Lance over the HB (not that its bad). Between set up and your first move you should be within half range with most first shots.

Unless you fear LD8 save the points on the unit champs esp. if you go with the Raider and GT.

If you like the Hexrifle I really think you could keep it.
Even add another one in a small unit of Wracks and the two can join forces and stay a bit behind the rest of the army rushing the enemy.

Wow, such good advice all around. So much of it makes sense that I'm even more torn about what I want to do now, lol.

The problem with switching up the first month is that some of it is built, but I'm going to try and snap some arms off.

You've deffinately got me thinking though. I was going to mess around with Witch Flying Venom Circus for the second 1000 points, so for month 2 I may throw in a Venom with some Blood Brides w/ Haywire grenades to drop the Hammy with WWP off then go tank hunting.

As for the Talos, I'd put the Liquifiers on it if I'd taken an anti-troop gun on the tail. As it is, he's going to be trying to stun vehicles long enough to trundle over to them and punch the ever-living bejezus out of their backside.

I'll deffinately be making some changes to the Hammys though, and maybe the Acothysts (I'd modeled them with Mindphase Gauntlets in the fear of hitting Monsterous Creatures, but I'm seeing that Venom Blades or Scissor Hands may be better).

Thanks for the help guys!

Aaroon42 wrote:

Wow, such good advice all around. So much of it makes sense that I'm even more torn about what I want to do now, lol.

The problem with switching up the first month is that some of it is built, but I'm going to try and snap some arms off.

You've deffinately got me thinking though. I was going to mess around with Witch Flying Venom Circus for the second 1000 points, so for month 2 I may throw in a Venom with some Blood Brides w/ Haywire grenades to drop the Hammy with WWP off then go tank hunting.

As for the Talos, I'd put the Liquifiers on it if I'd taken an anti-troop gun on the tail. As it is, he's going to be trying to stun vehicles long enough to trundle over to them and punch the ever-living bejezus out of their backside.

I'll deffinately be making some changes to the Hammys though, and maybe the Acothysts (I'd modeled them with Mindphase Gauntlets in the fear of hitting Monsterous Creatures, but I'm seeing that Venom Blades or Scissor Hands may be better).

Thanks for the help guys!

Ok have another few fun (IMHO) 500pt Coven list options:

1 x Hammy w. Liquifier & Power Weapon
8 x Wrack w. Liquifier, Acothyst
8 x Wrack w. Liquifier, Acothyst
1 x Talos w. TL-Liquifier & TL Heat Lance
1 x Talos w. TL-Liquifier & TL Heat Lance

-or- (to accomadate more of what you like with the Talos)

1 x Hammy w. Liquifier & Power Weapon
8 x Wrack w. Liquifier, Acothyst
8 x Wrack w. Liquifier, Acothyst
1 x Talos w. Chain-flail & TL Haywire Blaster
1 x Talos w. Chain-flail & TL Haywire Blaster

-or- (I think my personal favorite and keeping your Talos more melee forgiving)

1 x Hammy w. Liquifier & Power Weapon
3 x Grotesques w. Aberration & Flesh Gauntlet
8 x Wrack w. Liquifier
8 x Wrack w. Liquifier
1 x Talos w. Chain-Flail & TL Haywire Blaster


I still disagree with your thoughts for the Talos in your original list, with only one true ranged AT weapon I don't think you have the luxury of playing the lock-down game (especially vs GK). If your opponent has more than one vehicle threat your Talos will be hard pressed to make it to any vehicle alive. You need to kill and reaquire and I think the Heat-Lance on the small board will help with that. Now in the lists that double up on Talos or includes the Grots Haywire Blasters should work a lot better.

Now why I like the TL-Liquifier vs. Chain-flails. First if you face any hordish armies your template rerolling wounds will be priceless in avoiding getting bogged down. Not to mention even on average you will kill just as many higher armour targets as the flails and thats before they get a chace to beat on you. If the Talos could fleet I would agree but it can't so any charge will be made well within template range. Against harder elites a 50% chance of negating MEQ and spraying down multiple models (also rerolling wounds) prior to any charge is priceless. Not to mention you can support your melee Wracks better by thinning down numbers prior to their charge. Did I mention it negates cover saves to? Chain-Flails have a 44% you don't wow me factor meaning 44% of the time they either had no effect (i.e. you rolled doubles) or you rolled just 1 better. Take any bonus 1, 2, etc and add your 33% or better I missed ratio and the Flails start lossing it for me. Did I mention the template doesn't miss? Now can the Chain-flail totally own yeah, nothing feels better than rolling a 1 and a 6 and feeling like you're totally vindicated by your choice. I just think you can't go wrong adding in another solid weapon at the expense of maybe impacting your melee ability. Did I mention MC's can fire two weapons a turn? You can also shoot the rear of any vehicle (almost always AV10) or a light speeder (did I mention it negates cover) and since it's TL reroll armor pen. (likely? probably not, useless? definately not).

Why I like the last list, the Grots give you another tough hard hitting unit that can screen for the Talos (if need). They can also take out Vehicles and the Aberration with 6 Flesh Gauntlet (probably rerolling wounds) attacks on the charge can definately dent many multi-wound units/models. The Haemonculus' Liquifier can thin down Hordes on the pre-charge for the Grots and Power Weapon adds that little armor denile the Grots lack in HtH. The Grots should also take some of the small arms focus off the Wracks allowing them time to get into position (either objective holding or charging). The only thing i would think about changing in the last list as I mentioned before is with the Talos, I might keep the Haywire Blaster but I still think the TL-Liquifier is worth its weight in gold in more situations than those Flails; either way you're not really gimping yourself.

Fletch wrote:

-or- (I think my personal favorite and keeping your Talos more melee forgiving)

1 x Hammy w. Liquifier & Power Weapon
3 x Grotesques w. Aberration & Flesh Gauntlet
8 x Wrack w. Liquifier
8 x Wrack w. Liquifier
1 x Talos w. Chain-Flail & TL Haywire Blaster

Alright. Sold. If for nothing else than I JUST got 3 Grotes. I'll take the advice on the Talos and snap off the Flails for the Liquifier (you just make too good of an argument).

The reason I plan on using Haywires in the first place is that I haven't had ANY luck with Heat LAnces on ANYTHING in the past. They always seem to just peeter out on me.

My one big question is "why the Flesh Gauntlet on the Grot?", it's just an inta-kill weapon that'll wound on a higher number that what the Grot would normally need. Is there some super-secret forum trick to it that I don't know of?

Aaroon42 wrote:

My one big question is "why the Flesh Gauntlet on the Grot?", it's just an inta-kill weapon that'll wound on a higher number that what the Grot would normally need. Is there some super-secret forum trick to it that I don't know of?

Well the cheap way to run the Aberration is the Venomblade since it gets you the off-hand bonus attack for the low price of 5 points, or a total of 15 points for 2 additional attacts (10 for Ab, 5 for VB). However I feel the Flesh Gauntlet is the winner.

I personally like the option of being able to insta-kill any model regardless of toughness (yes you T6, 7, 8 etc) if they fail a save (only excluding those specifically immune to insta-kill in their rules or eternal). It's also a poision attack which allows the Ab to easily wound T7 or greater (and then insta kill them on a failed save). Also on the charge they are S6 so they will be rerolling that 4+ to wound on any model T6 or less, greatly increasing the chances of auto-killing a character, monster or groups of multi-wound troopers (ouch goes the Nob and Ogryn). Also since it causes instant death it doesn't allow FNP rolls.



****WARNING MATH HAMMER A HEAD*****

I was going to create a new thread regarding the Chain-Flail vs TL Liquifier but might as well share here.


Chain Flails:

As you may be aware when rolling (2) 6-sided dice there are a total of 36 possible combinations. Now of those

6 of 36 (17%) will be doubles = The same amount of attacks
10 of 36 (28%) will be off by 1 = 1 more attack
8 of 36 (22%) will be off by 2 = 2 more attacks
6 of 36 (17%) will be off by 3 = 3 more attacks
4 of 36 (11%) will be off by 4 = 4 more attacks
2 of 36 (6%) will be off by 5 = 5 more attacks

Now taking into account the Talos WS we will give him the benefit of the doubt of hitting on 3s and wounding on anything but a 1. Lets look at what happens with those "bonus" attacks.

17% = No more wounds (sorry you rolled the same)
50% = 1 more wound (this is the 1 or 2 extra attack group and being very nice with the rounding)
28% = 2 more wound (this is the 3 or 4 extra attack group)
6% = 3 more wound (this is the 5 extra attack group)
* I know the total is slightly higher than 100% due to rounding

So its more than likely you will score 1 or fewer additional wounds with a chain flail against any non-vehicle unit.

Now that Twin-linked Liquifier

Lets assume a MEQ, and go conservative with the number of models covered, lets say 6.

6 Hits
5 Wounds (rerolled of course)
2 Dead Marines
***WAIT*** what if I rolled my AP and 50% of the time the result is a 3 or lower?
5 Dead Marines
***WAIT***what if the marines are in cover, meaning my Talos would attack last when I charge?
5 Dead Marines

(It typically only gets better with troops like Orcs, Bugs, Guard, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, etc)

Ok well sure but what about some vehicles, like fast skimmers, those extra attacks will be much better here right?
Um.....Not exactly, its actually better to be hitting those light types with your Liquifier....How so....
First, using your liquifier doesn't prevent you from charging later.
Second, more than likely your HtH hits need a 6.
Third, your template auto hits and yes you'll need a 6 to damage but you get 2 chances to roll that 6 since it's twin-linked.

Hmm thats like getting two additional attacks in HtH...how often will the chain flails do that...only 22% of the time, 44% of the time they actually do worse than a liquifier vs a fast skimmer. Yeah but 34% of the time they will do better; unfortunately those still need 6s to hit meaning they will more than likely do nothing.


Now against other vehicles the Chain flails will perform better but you still need to roll and then hit and almost half the time the result of having a flail or not is the difference of 1 additional attack which then typically misses 50% of the time. Some times it will be awesome.

I just think the overall utility of the Liquifier blows the Chain flail out of the water and its cheaper. Now if the Talos could fleet, meaning I would give up my shooting to move then sure, a second short range gun looses some luster. If the Talos had to give up its ability to do an additional D6 armor pen and ignore armor (similar in how a Dread gets gimped in HtH by taking a second big gun, i.e. S10 vs S6 and no longer ignoring armor save), then yeah sure it makes sense to not take a Liquifier, but you don't.

Oh, alright. Well, I think I'm going to save 15 points and down-grade to a venom blade for the first 500 points. I'm going to use the spare points to add in Acothysts to the Wracks because I can't roll leadership for squat.

I really appreciate all the help.

Aaroon42 wrote:

Oh, alright. Well, I think I'm going to save 15 points and down-grade to a venom blade for the first 500 points. I'm going to use the spare points to add in Acothysts to the Wracks because I can't roll leadership for squat.

I really appreciate all the help.

Not a problem at all, Coven is my passion.

1 x Hammy w. Liquifier & Power Weapon
3 x Grotesques w. Aberration & Venomblade
8 x Wracks w. Liquifier, Acothyst
8 x Wracks w. Liquifier, Acothyst
1 x Talos w. TL-Liquifier & TL-Haywire Blaster

I think thats a pretty solid 500 point Coven themed list, made especially nasty when played on a 3'x3' or 4'x4' table. Please let us know how it goes.