The new supremacy

Step one.

No, this will not be a thread made of sparkles and sunshine talking about how amazing everything will be.

No, this will not be a thread made of doom and poopcicles talking about how horrible everything will be.

This will be a thread dedicated to a realistic approach of what (as far as we know) the army will be, and how it will function, and how it will (if possible) function well.

We've already had one thread locked due to petty infighting and bickering. Opinions differ. It happens. Let's not derail everything... it's not horribly productive (if sometimes therapeutic) to let out all of our would-be teenage angst against the gee-dubs.

Step two.

Start.

So I'm going off of a couple of things. A) That what rumors we have at this point are somewhat reliable, and B) That they are not all-encompassing.
C) Also note that there are a couple of things I'm unclear on, as will be described later.

Now. New codices bring changes. Power shifts, unit value and purpose changes... it happens. What we need to focus on is not how unit A is effected, or how our favorite model or wargear will function, but rather how the army as a whole will work, and if necessary roles can be successfully filled.

Vehicles -
The core concept is the same. Relatively cheap (Raiders down, huzzah), fast as all get-out, flimsy. All still true. Flickerfields not being available to Raiders (I've heard that some vehicles can get them?) does not affect me personally much... I stopped taking them once Jink was a thing. I do however realize that many other players still made extensive use, and don't blame them for it per se. More of a personal choice. If FF's are a must in your eyes, then extensive Venom use is in your future... but hey, it's not like Venoms are bad, and they don't seem to have been touched.

Voidraven in my eyes is moot. More expensive base cost, traded armor for a larger blast on the bomb. Plus new weapon that makes it a great bomber, but takes away from the real draw of S9 lances. I expect a lightly used option to continue to be lightly used, but maybe there will be some hidden gem mixed in there. Shrug. I'll not complain about a unit I never used anyway.

Razor's to FA opens that up, and solves the "flyer vs ravager" conundrum. Unfortunate that it's still a far better anti-troop option than anti-air, which we need, and if it also got a price bump then that's very annoying, but I don't think 15 points will break any lists (well, math may disagree, but we'll see). Honestly not competing with Ravagers may be enough of a break to open this craft up. At least if I go back to an anti-infantry build I'm not stealing pain token kills from my infantry units.

Vehicle Upgrades are a mix.
I used Night Shields on everything but Flyers. Moving to Stealth is... questionable. It means Tau, Eldar, and certain other builds don't care about your 15 point-per-boat upgrade, which is painful. However a 3+ jink is very attractive. I'll certainly try it out. I may be happier with the price reduction in the end.
Splinter racks working willy-nilly will open up some hilarious, if potentially not cost-effective options... but I'm hoping this doesn't come at a drastic price increase. Our boats don't handle expensive upgrades well.
Aether Sails as a flat +6" to Flat Out I like. Granted, I never used them, and I may continue that trend... but a known bonus you can count on. Random distances give false hopes.
Tormentor Grenade Launchers... this is the one I'm most curious about. If it fails to affect marines/fearless, I think too many armies will be immune to make it a worthwhile upgrade. However I love the idea that they're bringing back Ld-based shenanigans, and if it's actually just a psy-scream effect, then that en masse is... scary. I've read in some places that it specifically doesn't work vs Fearless/ATSKNF, and in others that's only specified for the Archangel of Pain.

On the whole, I think the ones that used to be useful are still useful, and some new ones may be useful in the end.

Archons and their playthings:
Now here's an interesting one. Please note that I used the Huskblade. A lot. All the time, actually. So this is said from someone who made extensive use of an AP2 insta-death weapon.

I really don't think it matters that much.

Realistically, there are relatively few units running around with a 2+ save. Of those, there are less that we really would have wanted the Archon in combat with, for reasons that we already know, have been hashed, etc etc.
The question is, what will the new weapons be useful for?

First, the Huskblade is a cheaper, if more specialized (by far) big-game hunter. While you can go for broke aiming to force a failed save vs death, or stick to big-but-3+'d targets... frankly I'll probably go back to the Agonizer. See below.
The Aggy gaining poison is potentially huge. If (and a big if) the Llahmean maintains her 2+ poison-sharing, then we just gained easy access to a wounds-on-2+, AP3 weapon. That is not a bad thing by any stretch. Even if this is not an option, becoming proper-poison means that enhancing your strength will have serious benefits.
A segue to the Soul Trap. Another trinket I used every time my Archon came out to play. The idea of a S6 monster was just too wonderful to pass up. But if I'm honest, it very rarely came into play in a timely fashion. Requiring an IC/MC was often difficult to set up, and there were few games indeed that I really got to rampage in a fashion that I thought fitting (although I do have a nice list of souls that I've trapped over the years, and need to add a Riptide to that list from a tournament the other day...).
Triggering off of any challenge makes for far more targets on the board. Yes, the enemy can refuse your initial challenges, and if this alone makes the 'trap not worth taking, then we won't take it. Denying isn't *always* the best course, and I think the proliferation of targets is definitely a boon. The bonus is less, but easier to get, and even just S4 with Furious Charge means a re-roll vs Marines.

More importantly, I think the Archon is stepping into the role of reliable lawn mower. Ignore challenges and soul trap potential - just look at what he'll do to a squad of Marines. A Djinn Blade is all of the current bonuses, with no chance of insta-death. If it simply grants bonus attacks (as in, you can use a different weapon's rules), then we're looking at 8 attacks on the charge (without factoring Drugs or Rage). That's... not a small number. No promises it'll work that way, as the 'what things do' are vague.

Further AP2 in Combat:
As in, it apparently barely exists. Maybe.
For every post saying Klaives are AP3, I see one that says they're still AP2. Or that they go AP2 if you go two-handed, which apparently means unweildy? I wasn't aware these two rules were hand-in-hand.
The same applies here, though. AP2 matters in few circumstances, and just having access to it, even at a disadvantage, may be enough. On the plus side, it allows for combat sniping. Since you remove the nearest enemy from whatever is attacking *per initiative step*, you can put one or two Incubi in base with the special model you want to kill - the Melta gunner, the comms operator, the banner-holder, whatever. They drop to AP2, I1. Their wounds have to hit that model first. Congrats, you just sniped in combat. Utility is sneaky and good.
OR they're just straight AP2, and that's a good thing.

Succubus? same thing on the Glaive. Again, I'm not sure where two-handed becomes Unwieldy (and sadly can't access my book right now).. and this is me just being ignorant of possible rules I should know. But it's kind of the same story. AP3 honestly is fine in 90% of situations, and in the 10% that you simply must have AP2 to be effective, you have that option. Perhaps we will see the Succubus rise as our challenge character? Well. You'd have to survive to strike, which may be laughable... we tend to be squishy without a shadowfield.

So, no... "having the option at a cost" is not as good as just being better (read: ap2 all the time). But having that option could very well be enough. The majority of the time we were already better shooting these hard units into oblivion, where our poison ignores their high toughness, or our lances ignore their amazing armor (or dissies, which may see more play as AP2 is more wanted).
The real question is "can we deal with 2+ saves", and I think the answer is yes... it may just come from shooting almost exclusively. But seriously. Would we rather have it only come from combat? This edition hates combat almost to the point of futility.


Other Arcane Wargear.... er... Relics.
So the Archangel not being useful vs half of things is pretty silly. But a piece of Wargear we took once for a laugh still being that piece of wargear we take once for a laugh is hardly a downside.

Special ghostplate could be really cool. If not too expensive, the -2 Ld bubble could do really nasty things.
Poison Pistol that regains wounds? Dependent on cost, but I think this could be a staple piece of kit. Even vs marines, you basically have gear that says "on a 5+ in the shooting phase, you kill a dude and gain a wound". Again, completely dependent on cost.
Helm thing - awesome effect. A really, really awesome effect, that has a legitimate use vs Psykers. Another thing that will be a very cool addition if the price is right.
I feel like I'm forgetting one. Oh well.


Some general notes...

Price decreases in a lot of places. Cheaper bodies really do add up, and may just be enough to start including some of that more fun arcane gear.

Talos... yeah. Sorry guys. I was never much of a coven user. I guess a lot of the hate got thrown that way. S3 liquifiers is lame. Talos going to 3 attacks generally is lame. Going 1-3 is only good, but it doesn't help if the unit isn't worth taking. Maybe being able to mix a Cronos into a unit to buff with Spirit Probe, etc, will make the unit as a whole worth doing... hard to tell at this point.

No haywire on Wyches? Another thing I didn't touch much, but many did. I am told by a friend that he saw a rumor about Bloodbrides having them, which would basically allow the same tactic (just from elites), but I can't verify that personally.
Perhaps Scourges will have 4 weapons per squad regardless of size (saw a hint in that direction somewhere) so haywire scourges may replace that. It's a tough thing to replace, I'm ready and willing to admit.

WWP... I think this incarnation is both insanely more boring, yet insanely more useful. I don't have to tell you how good perfect Deep Strike is, with or without Eldar Allies.

Power from Pain - I rather like this system. I also like that they kept Heamy's as a good support option on this front. I'm eager to see how it plays out, and I'm glad we get FnP early on still.

Combat Drugs - basically the same. Most still give an appreciable combat-boost (WS,S,A, and even T). Init is good for rundowns, but we mostly out-init other armies, and Ld will ... well... it's the one you grimace at until it keeps your unit from falling back in that one combat you really wanted to hold.




Yeah, that was huge. Sorry, kids. I tried to be fairly comprehensive... I know factually that I left some things out, but that's because I'm tired and there's a lot there already, and I can't remember everything.
In the end... Personally, I have a relatively decent outlook on this book. I know we've lost some things, but I do think that the army still has the tools it needs. And hey, didn't someone say our Lances got cheaper? I'm hoping that passes to Blasters, too, but who knows.

A nicely written post. Lets try to keep this thread on topic with more posts like this one.

One thing I have been thinking about is the way the new webway portal works.

Stick an Archon with a blaster(or hammie) and a webway portal, into a squad of reavers or scourges with Heatlances. If for some reason scourges can carry four special weapons, that would mean four heatlances per squad of five with no scatter. Melt anything anywhere. Knights/Land Raiders/Wave serpents. Who knows maybe ranged gear will open up to archons and they can buy a heat lance too?

Reavers provide the more reliable option since they can jink. But if you can get FnP on the scouges via an Archon or Haemonculus you have a really tough unit (for eldar) with 4+/6++ 4-6+ Fnp

I see more utility in a raider or venom full of death, but only because the archon can't keep up with the bikes or other fast unit and is left alone for an easy warlord kill. Of course, if some hqs can take a bike then that's a while different story.

A note on something I forgot. Cannons.

So yeah, salvo is strictly worse. But. Something to keep in mind.

The only reason you had to keep moving on sixth was for jink. Or if things got close to avoid combat.
Now that jink isn't linked to moving it's often more beneficial to stand still anyway. Drive into some ruins and set up camp. 18" on the move is usually enough to make use of splinter racks. Carbine's are only 18" as well, and double tap is 12".

So yes, it is a downgrade, but one I believe we can easily work with.

I liked your intro.
From my understanding, splinter cannons have also received a points hike. However, with the new salvo rule, meaning they'll be firing 4 shots at 18" most of the time, this may mean shard carbines become a more useful choice. You'll have the same range most of the time, 1 less shot, but potentially be saving a decent amount on points.
On the archon+webway, I kinda hope that sslyth will see more use. They're a hard unit, good AI firepower and will be able to take some punishment. And if liquifiers are really S3, grotesques may not be as appealing as the sslyth for deep strike/bodyguard duty.

jbwms713 wrote:

I see more utility in a raider or venom full of death, but only because the archon can't keep up with the bikes or other fast unit and is left alone for an easy warlord kill.  Of course, if some hqs can take a bike then that's a while different story.

A note on something I forgot.  Cannons.

So yeah, salvo is strictly worse.  But.  Something to keep in mind.

The only reason you had to keep moving on sixth was for jink.  Or if things got close to avoid combat.
Now that jink isn't linked to moving it's often more beneficial to stand still anyway.  Drive into some ruins and set up camp.  18" on the move is usually enough to make use of splinter racks.  Carbine's are only 18" as well, and double tap is 12".  

So yes, it is a downgrade, but one I believe we can easily work with.

I used to take two units of 2x splinterborn on venoms. Can you imagine 2x splinterborn with 8x shardcarbine on a raider with splinter racks? In our old codex it would cause about 3.556 wounds to a unit of space marines. In the new one it would cause 4.741. That's on a good armor save. Anything with a 5+ armor save is going to receive 14 wounds. Barring cover and invulnerables.

First of all, I gotta say this is a great post

Expletive Deleted wrote:

One thing I have been thinking about is the way the new webway portal works.

Stick an Archon with a blaster(or hammie) and a webway portal, into a squad of reavers or scourges with Heatlances. If for some reason scourges can carry four special weapons, that would mean four heatlances per squad of five with no scatter. Melt anything anywhere. Knights/Land Raiders/Wave serpents. Who knows maybe ranged gear will open up to archons and they can buy a heat lance too?

Reavers provide the more reliable option since they can jink. But if you can get FnP on the scouges via an Archon or Haemonculus you have a really tough unit (for eldar) with 4+/6++ 4-6+ Fnp

+1. This would be like 'Melta Fast (DE Ver.)'

By the way if this WWP rumor is true, DE players who bought that exclusive WWP template would cry

Quote :

I used to take two units of 2x splinterborn on venoms. Can you imagine 2x splinterborn with 8x shardcarbine on a raider with splinter racks? In our old codex it would cause about 3.556 wounds to a unit of space marines. In the new one it would cause 4.741. That's on a good armor save. Anything with a 5+ armor save is going to receive 14 wounds. Barring cover and invulnerables.

At the same time this unit (barring any price hike or drop) is super squishy and around 250 points. Thats 1/6 of your entire army in regular 1500 games.

I agree somewhat with the OP but he misses out on a few things here and there:

Quote :

I stopped taking them once Jink was a thing.

Agreed on Raiders as the one Diss or Lance is not going to hurt you. On the Flyers (mostly Blast) and Ravagers (Weapon platform) having to jink does hurt a lot. No I wont miss them on Raiders, but on the other two. Both with taskt that the Venom cant fulfill.

Quote :

A Djinn Blade is all of the current bonuses, with no chance of insta-death. If it simply grants bonus attacks (as in, you can use a different weapon's rules)

You forget the unsaveable wound from the Djinn Blade at the roll of a 1. Also it never gave you the bonus attacks when another weapon was used (as was written in every single FAQ up to date and still is)

Quote :

Price decreases in a lot of places. Cheaper bodies really do add up, and may just be enough to start including some of that more fun arcane gear.

I guess its somewhat even with price hikes. Raider got down in price, Splinter Cannon got up, Nightshield will probably get up to 15 (like holofields and camo netting but with a worse effect as it does not stack with stealth unlike the other 2) and we dont know about splinter racks yet but I would bet on a price increase.

What we know for sure is that Hellions dropped by 3 points. And I think the Hellion is a good example to show that price reductions just dont matter. For 13 points per model you get a 12" S4 T3 assault with an 5+ save. Still waaaay too much for a fragile unit without kill potential. To make these things worthwile they would have to drop to ork price levels as the only thing that Hellions hold over a 9 points stormboy is the Ini and a better shooting phase. While the Ork got the better melee with his 4 At, Furious charge, HoW and the possibility of Waaagh.

In my mind DE are in an awkward position. The survivability of a Horde army but with the prices of an Elite army without matching their survivability or firepower.

Some things are just plain stupid. 120 Points for a Talos that is strictly WORSE than any SM Dread for 30% less points (which is still deemed a bad unit) is just not justifyable.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Quote :

I used to take two units of 2x splinterborn on venoms. Can you imagine 2x splinterborn with 8x shardcarbine on a raider with splinter racks? In our old codex it would cause about 3.556 wounds to a unit of space marines. In the new one it would cause 4.741. That's on a good armor save. Anything with a 5+ armor save is going to receive 14 wounds. Barring cover and invulnerables.

At the same time this unit (barring any price hike or drop) is super squishy and around 250 points. Thats 1/6 of your entire army in regular 1500 games.

Well I'm trying to be more positive with the changes. You put these guys in reserve, they show up turn 3 with FnP, they will murder anything with a toughness value. Honestly when looking at the new codex rule wise it seems like Taloi might be needed to keep us from getting tabled, because coming in from reserve with power from pain bonuses it going to kick major ass.

If you can keep the other army busy for two turns, then drop the hammer on them with 5-4+ FnP. They won't be able to react.

Depending on the proliferation of ignores cover in your area I can vouch that stealth+shrouded eldar rangers (what else is rumored to have that ) work great for holding out hidden.

I admit an autarch helps even more for 2+ reserves coming in. But for a pure army I guess not. Maybe converted aegis with mandrakes or wracks?

To be fair you are always able to react. If you can shoot them, they can shoot you.
If you arrive from reserve turn 3, that means you only have 2 or 3 turns to go. Even if you survive the initial 1250 vs 1500 (assuming the shardborn are your only unit in reserve) you only have max 3 more turns. With an average of 5 MEQ per turn you are probably not even gonna make your investment back.

Also PfP does nothing at all for this unit. You need to stay on your raider to be safe from shooting and get the rerolls from splinter racks so FnP is not needed (unless the raider blows up in which case you lose all the boni that made the unit good in the first place). Furious charge? You dont want to melee with them.
Fearless? They are already fearless as long as they are on the Raider. Rage? Same as Furious charge.

Not saying that shardborn are "the best" but they are too big of an investment.

For the same points you would also get a Venom + Cannon + 5 Kabalites and 8 Kabalites in a Diss Raider with Splinter Racks. Firepower on short range is a small bit higher (due to the Diss) and you have the added bonus of having 2 Targets AND potential 4 objective secured units which are quite important currently.

Personally I didn't use Splinterborn or Shardborn - in fact I very rarely use Blasterborn - but I can see the arguments for both sides. Points costs will determine how useful they are ultimately though.

I think the ability to torrent attacks with Rage is going to be very useful for us, so late game charges could really do some damage to already weakened units, especially with Furious Charge - these two special rules go a long way to giving us exactly what we asked for as a community, which is the ability to actually wound the enemy in close combat. I think (if the rumours turn out to be true) that they've done an admirable job in making us hit harder in a melee, with justification from the fluff and without changing statlines, or altering wargear too drastically.

I'm thinking of getting a second Razorwing if it has moved to fast attack. Now you can fire all the missiles on the turn you arrive, and with not needing to give up a heavy support slot to take one, they can do what they should, which is mow down infantry that your boats can't get an angle on and take pot shots at side armour. More aircraft are always good to my mind, as they're harder to shoot down. Unless the enemy has Interceptor, you're going to get all your missiles off anyway, so jinking after that isn't quite such a big deal. Three Ravagers and two Razorwings, that's how I imagine my army looking. Cue Dambusters theme.

I'm looking forward to experimenting with the new detachment if that turns out to be true. Six fast attacks could be horrendous. A couple of squads of Reavers with heat lances, two Razorwings, maybe some Hellions because I was always impressed by the damage they could do on the charge with the right drugs, and that's before heavy supports. So many lances! I do think lance spam will have to become our staple AT now. Arguably it shouldn't have been wyches anyway, but the loss of haywire does hurt. It's looking possible to get an absolutely obscene number of lances into a list now though, so target saturation will have to be our goal in list building. Again. Ah well. You practically end up with a ton of lances accidentally as it is, so it's not so bad.

I was talking to a member of staff in GW the other day, and he was talking about how in the Grey Knights codex, transports are slotless. That would be amazing if it was the case for us if we wanted to ally in Eldar. Howling Banshees can start in a vehicle they can assault out of. Wraithguard with D-scythes can deep strike without scattering. Fire Dragons can drop next to whatever you feel like killing... but we'll have to wait and see on that one. They're probably not too concerned about trying to sell more Venoms at this point!

Court could be very nice, if the points stack up. I've been wanting Sslyth for a while, to paint up with brown and yellow scales, and if the composition and eyeburst rules are true, that's a very juicy unit. You also get two heads with the Medusae, so can convert a second one fairly easily and save yourself some money. They have to buff this unit, as I can't believe they've flown off the shelves with those rules. Even fielded as what they're intended to be, ie a bodyguard for an Archon, they're better. It'd be a shame if the Lhamean lost the 2+ upgrade ability now the agoniser is a poisoned weapon, but brace yourselves for it to happen just in case. Course, I can't really see what else she'd be useful for, but then I'm not as imaginative as an Archon when it comes to that sort of thing

It seems to me that they nerfed everything that was decent in the last book, and haven’t replaced it with buffing others.
In a vacuum perhaps HWG looked OP. (OMG, you can kill my imperial knight how?)
In a vacuum perhaps splinter cannons looked OP.
In a vacuum perhaps liquifier looked OP. (I truly loved making marine players feel how I do when my wyches get flamed. Guess the legions of SM players didnt like it so much)

The reality was, not only were these not OP in the context of the army, they were actually among the only things that gave us a chance.

I’m expecting points drops and increases across the board, so overall level will be similar. Kabalites will go down. But splinter cannon up. The knights themselves down, but upgrades up so base cost of unit is almost identical.
Raiders go down, but razorwings up (remain our only AA- and still rubbish at it). Much like Grey knights.

The archon court might be interesting, and surprised that it was retained. Could be a nice unit.

Super bummed that Talos have been NERFED, as I like the model and recently painted lovely talos and cronos. From using them I thought they needed a pretty heavy buff. Perhaps they can deep strike?
Super bummed that bladevane has gone.


One key thing I’m super interested in, and haven’t seen yet, is grenades for the incubi?

Struggling to remain positive, and hoping there is stuff in the book we’ve missed

Quote :

One key thing I’m super interested in, and haven’t seen yet, is grenades for the incubi?

One thing I have seen from GW many times.
If the Model does not have a certain piece of equipment, it wont be in the rules.

Banshees are not medelled with Nades, so no Nades for them.
All the others got them because they are visible on the model. Same for Inccubi and Mandrakes.

I will be quite distressed if that is the case, given the grenade launchers dont count as grenades, now.

You should add an Archon or Succubus anyways, both always had Plasmas.

Indeed, but I wanted to be able to take the unit without adding on another 100 pts.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that Scourge might be able to take 4 special weapons not dependent on size...

If so, 4 haywire, blaster on boss hawk, IC with WWP and another blaster maybe?

Drop in front of a landraider, stands a pretty good change of wrecking and trapping the buggers inside to die...

Though a huge amount of ifs in that idea.

Overall I am excited for the release, I play and win with both CSM and militarum tempestus against 'good' codices, and I think this will book will sit around that level.

But we shall know soon enough! Digital download friday at midnight here we go!!!

and scourges are the best models available, so more of those on the table will be nice

But a characters grenades don't help the squad - it's model by model for grenades. The PGL got around this.

Never Found a reliable strat vs CSM tbh. As soon as the 3 Chicken are on the table im done as the Baleflamer kills everything on board of my vehicles while the Razorwings get shut down by vector strikes.

AM is a tough one as my partners have learned to add "ignore cover" orders/Psi Powers, Templates and lots of Autocannons.

You have to out move the hell drake - now it's got a sore neck it's much easier to hide from its flamer

I meant I play CSM myself, and I only run one drake with a hades autocannon and can still win. Militarum tempestus also lack all the extra goody IC's that AM have.

I'm not saying I'm going to be happy if we are a weaker codex, but I certainly won't be that bothered we're not top tier and think there will still be loads of interesting and cool things to run that can be competitive at most levels if not the highest.

I'm more concerned what they might have done to our fluff! Our precious precious fluff.

How often can you say that sentence without being pulled away in a white jacket....

I dont think (m)any people were expecting top tier, but considering we are currently one of, if not the worst, book a buff would have been nice, instead of a nerfhammering.

pending seeing the actual book, of course.

and remaining positive!

I think part of the problem with the way the rumours are being perceived is that many people are looking at the things they used to use all the time and deciding it's a nerf overall because some of that stuff is worse. Time will tell, but I don't think we're going to be the worst book.