The new supremacy

Expletive Deleted wrote:

Oh! If I can legitimately be mad about something though?

I just bought a pack of harlequins and a spirit seer about a month or two ago. Those could have been wracks, or with a little extra a voidraven. Now they're just there. Laughing at me. They're Harlequins so you know they're laughing at me.

I have a similar problem with my own Harlequins.

Did they drop the Harlies from the new codex? they are/were listed in the 5th ed(still current for couple days) one , I never ran them but no where did I see that we needed any special 'permission' to use them...or did I miss that meeting..?? Thought they would be kind of cool to try but the minis/costumes look too circus-y to me...

Personally the only Eldar I like to try to use are the Wraithguard/Wraithblades ..... trying to work a way to basically make them a PITA for an opponent like using to hold an objective, get them close to a termie unit to punk them,etc....I Want Some Castigators!! Oh well..

Maybe I can get a WWP to work for me since I hope ,think it CANNOT be bubbled now.....stupid to think you can ... using the wwp should cause 'blinded' to any opponent hoping to shoot at a unit coming out and we should be able to (again) assault from the portal if desired...

Guess I will wait til Saturday and get it,go home, have some liquid courage coping mechanisms nearby , squint my eyes and open it up....... people better have their ear plugs in because there will be 'no language filter enabled' if things look sour.....

Bottom line is I like fluffy,themed armies and organize them to how I think they would operate,weapons used,etc...... I like to win but my dice have other plans for me about 75% of the time and so if it is a bloody brawl, fine good game.. to be punked because everyone elses armies are so buffed that you cannot get a damn thing going ..... not fine....

I HOPE the Tantalus and Reaper do not somehow get nerfed....... SPEAKING OF WHICH.. DID i SEE RIGHT THAT ENHANCED e-SAILS NOW ONLY DO 1D6" INSTEAD OF THE 2D6" EXTRA?

I want to be able to add a Lhameaen to a unit as an upgrade to enhance Poisoned or have a unit of them attached to the archon as a 2+ poisoned ccw pin cushion...... but guess GW would not hear of it.

Oh well,time to enhance my calmmmmmm..aarrggghh.......

Archon Rievect wrote:

Example- Wyches- instead of giving poisoned 4+ ccw,making save a 4++ period, lets take away HW,do not give poisoned, leave save a joke if they find themselves flat footed or vehicle blown up...

Poison CC has always been the realm of Wracks - giving every rule to one unit just nullifies the use of the others.  And I can't count many 10 point (with rumored reduction) troops with a 4++ in this game...

We play DE.  We're used to being fragile.  If you couldn't work with fragile, you wouldn't play this army, so that's not the *real* problem.  This edition is very, very harsh on combat.  Period.  Every single combat-oriented unit starts an uphill battle because of this.  

Wyches suffer from the core rules first and foremost.  They even have a pretty decent delivery system (fast, open-topped vehicle) that explodes far less, which reduces the mega-death on the way in.  They now have guaranteed FnP, starting turn 1 if you want it.  They have a chance of getting T4, which is a big boost to their survivability.

90% of complaints about Wyches are really complaints with the core assault system.  That doesn't make them invalid, but it's not an issue with the codex - it's an issue with the fact that GW does not want to emphasize assault as an army-wide game-winning tactic.


On another note - further on Cannons.

Whenever I write up an 1850 list, I will have a lot, and I mean a *lot*, of splinter cannons.  Fun fact, though, only 3 will be on infantry.  1 raider squad with Racks (which now benefits the Cannon), and 1 Trueborn squad with 2 (who rode with the Duke).

So the Trueborn squad already preferred to sit still to capitalize on max firepower... so functionally there's little change.
The Raider squad will (hopefully, points-dependent) be happy with 18" range now that I get re-rolls on the cannon, and I wanted to ideally come up to 12" to finish off the unit I was targeting anyway.

All umpteen others are on Vehicles (read; Venoms, the bane of all things everywhere), which don't care if a weapon is Salvo.  So 95% of my Cannons (and, in all likelihood, yours) will be enjoying the same output as always.  Shoot, with the cost drop on Warriors, I may actually save points on that unit.  The Racks can go up by 50% and I'm not actually affected... so I feel pretty confident that these choices will be as solid as they are now.


Quick note on the Djinn Blade, to whoever it was that responded to that in particular (sorry, didn't back up that far)... I wasn't clear in my post - yes, there is a 1-in-6 chance to cause a wound... what I meant was that it's the same chance to get a wound as rolling doubles on the bonus attacks, but it has no chance to insta-death you (which a S6 Archon very much did).  Won't burn out your SF or other nasties, either.

And yes, the current incarnation does not allow weapon stacking... but that very simply *could* be different now.  We haven't seen the actual entry.  It's only existed for this one codex, so to say "it's always been that way" has limited bearing.  Night Shields have been a range reduction for nearly 20 years (through two books) but are now different.  As a one-off relic, it could easily be more powerful than it's current application.
We just need more info, is all.
One thing we do know, though, is that at least now we have the option of a nifty pistol that can regain us wounds.  Cost may be prohibitive on that particular piece of sweetness, but here's hoping not... the Djinn Blade and Parasite's Kiss may be very complementary wargear.


I will say, though, that if Harlies are out, that's utter bunk. I never even used them, but it irks me that suddenly Dark Eldar would be shunned by the "we visit everyone" faction. There is absolutely no fluff justification for requiring an Eldar presence before Harlies would make an appearance.

Sure, you could go unbound to include them, but I hardly think it worth the trouble... sigh. I suppose there's always the chance that it's a bogus rumor? A slight, hopeful chance... just for the sake of not having one more thing GW has done stupidly.

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Talos... yeah. Sorry guys. I was never much of a coven user. I guess a lot of the hate got thrown that way. S3 liquifiers is lame. Talos going to 3 attacks generally is lame. Going 1-3 is only good, but it doesn't help if the unit isn't worth taking. Maybe being able to mix a Cronos into a unit to buff with Spirit Probe, etc, will make the unit as a whole worth doing... hard to tell at this point.

I think Talos will be AMAZING if of course I can field a cronos within the squad...might still be fine even if I need to take a separate squad for them. The key here is that despite liquifiers being S3, they are twin-linked which is essentially shred in this case. So there is still a good chance to mow down infantry, which is what I find the Talos to excel at as well as light-medium tanks and even heavier depending on that back armor! Furthermore, its now a guaranteed 3 attacks...I can't tell you how many times I have rolled junk on those. Being in squads of 3 now is also huge...less competition in the HS slot and I get a bigger punch...I'll gladly pay 20 more points for included wargear AND guaranteed starting FNP...its a bargain still....add that cronos and 4+++ fnp...amaze ballz. I don't get the hate for them...they got better in my book! Also the salvo issue for cannons won't affect talos...also easier to get more haywire guns on the field...making them potentially worth taking on talos depending on your army....

just so much good comes of these guys being in squads and with base FNP that can be upgraded.

I personally want to try a talos or 3 , wanted to try them out with the current rules and stats...and points...will take the d6 plus 1 attacks over the guaranteed 3 ...and if the points are confirmed at 120 butt naked per and the points increase is for the "opportunity to field 3", that is bull...hopefully looking at 140-150 for a kitted out talos wont come to pass..

For me it would be fielding a tantalus, reaper and ravager or would have been tantalus, reaper and 3 taloi(assaulting through the wwp),or something like this...
As for the cannons and salvo, guess I dont know all the stuff for salvo but I liked them as they were 4 shot assault aor 6 stationary, ALL 36" range...this 18" range crap is bull, just guarantees the cannon wielders would be targeted by 18- 24" range weapons along with the restvof the group.... unless I missed something ...
As for ccw I guess I may use the agoniser if it is now also poisoned(?) Or can be? Right now I use a pw or just use a venom blade just to get 2+ wound ansd foce save throws..I run him with incubi and fit him with the PGL so I can assault and aalso deny the extra attack on the charge for the enemy.
Which again brings me to this- has the PGL been nerfed somehow so it is now worthless? I read a comment but cannot find it now..

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Exactly

I currently have an armless Succubus waiting to be equipped dependent on rules and options, though seeing as I only got her because she was going cheap (FLGS having a clearout of old metal models), I might still pick up the new one. Really liking the look of that mini, and if the agoniser arm is easily swappable so I don't have to pay through the roof to kit her out without wrecking the mini, I might get that one anyway. I already swapped the somewhat... equine head on the old one for a plastic wych head. I'm not terribly attached to her.

Just... magnetize her?
Have the same thing with scourges... I tend to magnetize everything in my army. Solarithe can take all weapon options available and 4 of the 10 members can have every heavy/special weapon available without deciding what I put on "forever"

Did also put over 120 Magnets in my Wraithguard so they can have all options available should the need arise.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Just... magnetize her?

Nah, can't be bothered with magnetising. I'd rather just assemble everything in a TAC kind of way, knowing that friends won't have a problem if I decide to experiment and proxy them as something else. Though I do wish I'd magnetised the missiles on the Razorwing, that would have been a good idea...

Another thought... has there been any word whatsoever on Bloodbrides having Haywire?

I mean, at this point it's "confirmed" that Wyches don't (except for squad leader)... but no word on Bloodbrides at all (other than points drop). And considering they're basically a squad of Hekatric as it is...

... I don't mean to get hopes up, but the HW-Wych squad could still be in our book... just as an Elite 'Bride squad instead. A unit of 5 would end up being about 15 points more expensive... but that also gives you a higher Ld for inevitable tests, and more attacks if you find yourself playing vs Tyranids. With all the points drops, one build getting slightly more expensive could easily be absorbed into the roster cost.
Sure, it eats and Elite slot... but that really doesn't mean much anymore. Take a cheap Heamy. Or Succubus, if they're the better option for you. I'm kind of excited for what the Succubus can do, and hope she remains close to her current cost. Let's say the Glaive is 20 points - so two Succubi (with current base) would be... 160. That's... utterly legitimate to spend on your HQ, gives an actually halfway decent combat character (two of them, actually), and gives you 6 Elites slots to play with.
Sure, you need 4 troops, but Warriors in a Venom are still just as good as always. Except, you know, *cheaper*.

I may be shoving my foot in my mouth, but since there's been no word to changes to 'Brides *other* than the cost... it may be as simple as switching to a different unit to do the same job.

Yup, confirmed Bo hwg for them either

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Another thought... has there been any word whatsoever on Bloodbrides having Haywire?

Yep. No Haywire for Bloodbrides, only for the siren.

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Take a cheap Heamy.

Gone from the book, only the ancient is left.

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but Warriors in a Venom are still just as good as always. Except, you know, *cheaper*.

And by "cheaper" you mean more expensive as Kabalites droped by 1 point but the Splinter cannon option went up all across the codex.

I really dint think there will be net pts drops.

No cheap haemy, higher razorwing, higher splinter cannon.

All counteract the 30 odd pts well save from infantry

I don't know how you guys stay positive with these rumors. It boggles my mind really. It's either that you guys deliberately look past the suck and try to salvage what we have left in the army book. Glass half-full kinda people.

Either that, or you're all new to the army, to the hobby, or to the edition, and just haven't experienced and seen the change of army books as much as some seasoned veterans.

I've been playing the army for 14 years, and I can tell you that I'm really scrapping the bottom of the barrel of this pathetic release of an army book.

HERO wrote:

I don't know how you guys stay positive with these rumors.  It boggles my mind really.  It's either that you guys deliberately look past the suck and try to salvage what we have left in the army book.  Glass half-full kinda people.

Either that, or you're all new to the army, to the hobby, or to the edition, and just haven't experienced and seen the change of army books as much as some seasoned veterans.

I've been playing the army for 14 years, and I can tell you that I'm really scrapping the bottom of the barrel of this pathetic release of an army book.

it';s just the optimistic people vs pessimistic people.

I'd read the rumours and came to "2 solid buffs, the rest nerfs"

the burning eye has it at about 10.

reading his thoughts pushed me up to 5 buffs.

notts wrote:

HERO wrote:

I don't know how you guys stay positive with these rumors.  It boggles my mind really.  It's either that you guys deliberately look past the suck and try to salvage what we have left in the army book.  Glass half-full kinda people.

Either that, or you're all new to the army, to the hobby, or to the edition, and just haven't experienced and seen the change of army books as much as some seasoned veterans.

I've been playing the army for 14 years, and I can tell you that I'm really scrapping the bottom of the barrel of this pathetic release of an army book.

it';s just the optimistic people vs pessimistic people.

I'd read the rumours and came to "2 solid buffs, the rest nerfs"

the burning eye has it at about 10.

reading his thoughts pushed me up to 5 buffs.

Hmm.. maybe I just don't see it like that. I'm more of a realist, and if there's a huge amount of nerfs and only a handful of buffs, it's pretty clear what my mood should be.

I'm interested in knowing what you would consider to be the buffs?

Im a realist as well, but I'm trying to stay positive because I only play 40k to play dark eldar. I'm not interested in the rest of the 40k universe. I haven't been happy with GW business practices lately but I'm still clinging to the hobby. If the only army I'm interested in takes too severe of a hit, then I'll likely be leaving the hobby. In this instance it's not a rage quit, but a cold, calculated decision that I would rather not make. But if I can't enjoy my army I can't enjoy the hobby. So, I would much rather try to find more positives than negatives. Hopefully, the book doesn't disappoint TOO much.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

Im a realist as well, but I'm trying to stay positive because I only play 40k to play dark eldar. I'm not interested in the rest of the 40k universe. I haven't been happy with GW business practices lately but I'm still clinging to the hobby. If the only army I'm interested in takes too severe of a hit, then I'll likely be leaving the hobby. In this instance it's not a rage quit, but a cold, calculated decision that I would rather not make. But if I can't enjoy my army I can't enjoy the hobby. So, I would much rather try to find more positives than negatives. Hopefully, the book doesn't disappoint TOO much.

Hard to hear, and I hope you find this release salvageable.

HERO wrote:

Expletive Deleted wrote:

Im a realist as well, but I'm trying to stay positive because I only play 40k to play dark eldar. I'm not interested in the rest of the 40k universe. I haven't been happy with GW business practices lately but I'm still clinging to the hobby. If the only army I'm interested in takes too severe of a hit, then I'll likely be leaving the hobby. In this instance it's not a rage quit, but a cold, calculated decision that I would rather not make. But if I can't enjoy my army I can't enjoy the hobby. So, I would much rather try to find more positives than negatives. Hopefully, the book doesn't disappoint TOO much.

Hard to hear, and I hope you find this release salvageable.

Agreed. And the rules do seem salvageable so that's certainly positive. But yeah, I don't mind losing games, but I certainly don't enjoy it! Well, unless the dice are bad, then I have fun with it.

HERO wrote:

notts wrote:

HERO wrote:

I don't know how you guys stay positive with these rumors.  It boggles my mind really.  It's either that you guys deliberately look past the suck and try to salvage what we have left in the army book.  Glass half-full kinda people.

Either that, or you're all new to the army, to the hobby, or to the edition, and just haven't experienced and seen the change of army books as much as some seasoned veterans.

I've been playing the army for 14 years, and I can tell you that I'm really scrapping the bottom of the barrel of this pathetic release of an army book.

it';s just the optimistic people vs pessimistic people.

I'd read the rumours and came to "2 solid buffs, the rest nerfs"

the burning eye has it at about 10.

reading his thoughts pushed me up to 5 buffs.

Hmm.. maybe I just don't see it like that.  I'm more of a realist, and if there's a huge amount of nerfs and only a handful of buffs, it's pretty clear what my mood should be.

I'm interested in knowing what you would consider to be the buffs?

the two I initially had were scourges getting 4 weapons,. and razorwing moving to FA

after Burning Eye's post, I also added court of Archon improvement, free deep strike, and splinter rack's.
pfp and the change to the vehicle upgrades are things i see as potential buffs, but also potential nerfs.

@ expletive deleted, I am in exactly the same boat.
I made an Ig army, but absolutely HATE playing with them. gunlines are boring as. Moved to Deldar as I loved the models.
GW business wise been turning me off for years, and they also killed my main fantasy army (Empire).
If the book is totally rancid, I'll be boxing my DE, and sticking with BFG as my main hobby output!
I'm ok losing. I'm not ok going into a game knowing I am exceedingly likely to lose, and large parts of the army are just unusable.

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the two I initially had were scourges getting 4 weapons,. and razorwing moving to FA

after Burning Eye's post, I also added court of Archon improvement, free deep strike, and splinter rack's.
pfp and the change to the vehicle upgrades are things i see as potential buffs, but also potential nerfs.

I think this completely depends on how the weapons are priced, as I didn't like Scourges in the first book and I don't see myself taking them in the second book.  If the prices remain the same, there has to be a really big price drop for the Scourges for me to consider them.

Razorwing moving to FA is one thing, but the fact of the matter is they also nerfed the Heavy Slot Ravagers with the removal of Aerial Assault.  Without a reliable weapons platform in heavy, this change is almost meaningless to me as the FA slot has never been crowded.

Archon's court got improved, I'll give it that.  I never took them though, just too expensive, too elaborate, and I see this as a way to sell fancy Finecast models.

Free Deep Strike is the one of the only times I will say that is a solid improvement.  More player options is always welcome!  Splinter Racks as well, I just hope their price remained the same.

I don't see PFP as a buff, nor do I see it in Combat Drugs.  Re-roll wounds for the entire unit is very, very good (which we will be losing), so this is a more a lateral fix more than anything.  PFP is a tricky one because that's not how I envisioned the army to be.  Dark Eldar should be strongest in the BEGINNING of the match while they have everything intact and capable of making daring and exciting raids.  If they had PFP in reverse, I would like the army much more.  Everything in the fluff suggests that Dark Eldar are raiders, and raiders don't like sustained action and are very hit-and-run.  This PFP means you get stronger as you stay, which 1, is unrealistic vs. any opponent worth their salt, and 2, defies rationale.

I can see where the designers' fantasy was when he envisioned Dark Eldar wreathing in the terror, agony and blood of combat, and thus getting stronger as the game goes on, but in terms of real game application, this is not the case at all.  Good fantasy, poor implementation, whereas if you turned it backwards, you would abide by the fantasy, and had stronger ingame results.

PS - Aethersails are a solid buff as well, as long as their prices stay small and if they no longer have that rule that means they can't shoot next round. This would mean huge positioning opportunities for gunboats

It's like GW has sold out all their Venoms and Ravagers an needs to get rid of the rest with the new dex. After reading these rumors the last few days it seems like we need mass scourges + flyers to deal with tanks ... and thats the only thing we need to think about when building a list, how to deal with tanks. Ravagers aerial assault gone, av10, price raise, have to pay for lance ... wtf ...

It feels like GW's forcing me into playing something i dont want to play just to be competitive

notts wrote:

it';s just the optimistic people vs pessimistic people.

Some people are thinking, 'I have everything I need. I'm just going to have to change my army lists.'

Others are thinking, 'I'm going to have to buy and *paint up* practically a whole new army, so that I can change up my army lists.'

I don't think it's about being inherently optimistic or pessimistic, rather it's easy to be optimistic when everything is fine... for you.

for me, being a realist is about taking what is in the new codex (which, granted, I've not seen yet but from Scorpion's thread seems like the rumours are pretty accurate) and building a list with it, that is viable and works in a way I'm comfortable with playing.

Being a pessimist is complaining that the choices we used to take aren't as good any more despite the fact they were never intended (HWG Wyches for example - I've always been surprised they didn't take that away by FAQ cos they were never supposed to be an anti tank choice, and HWG would only rarely wreck a transport in 5th).

Being an optimist is arguing that something will work in a role it's not suited to (for example taking a warrior squad with a dark lance as an anti tank unit).

Am i really missing something about aerial assault, as a fast skimmer the ravager can still move 6" and fire all of its weapons, giving it a 42" range?

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Am i really missing something about aerial assault, as a fast skimmer the ravager can still move 6" and fire all of its weapons, giving it a 42" range?

Nope, you're not missing anything. It lost the ability to move an extra 6" when firing all three weapons at full ballistic skill. Also it could only fire two at full ballistic skill if it chose to deep strike. Yeah, it's a nerf. But it's not much of one.

deep striking in 7th is only moving at combat speed (so 6"), it changed from 6th.

Did it? I had not noticed that...

Awesome