The new supremacy

So guys on board can disembark if we wanted on deep striking.

i checked the rules the other day when i saw the rumours about deep striking raiders since it also means passengers can fire at full effect instead of snap shooting.

With re-rolls on all the poisoned goodness from the new racks. Beautiful.

yup, I've been working on a few thoughts for my new list, there's a post in my blog where I've set out the basic skeleton, I'll probably do a more in depth look at the weekend when I get the book.

Mr Believer wrote:

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Am i really missing something about aerial assault, as a fast skimmer the ravager can still move 6" and fire all of its weapons, giving it a 42" range?

Nope, you're not missing anything. It lost the ability to move an extra 6" when firing all three weapons at full ballistic skill. Also it could only fire two at full ballistic skill if it chose to deep strike. Yeah, it's a nerf. But it's not much of one.

Yes it is.  12" is huge for positioning purposes.  That's the difference between side armor vs. front armor, cover save or no cover save.

Crazy how some of you guys process information. The optimist juice can only last so long.

Barking Agatha wrote:

notts wrote:

it';s just the optimistic people vs pessimistic people.

Some people are thinking, 'I have everything I need. I'm just going to have to change my army lists.'

Others are thinking, 'I'm going to have to buy and *paint up* practically a whole new army, so that I can change up my army lists.'

I don't think it's about being inherently optimistic or pessimistic, rather it's easy to be optimistic when everything is fine... for you.

There is a 3rd kind.
I like the aesthetic of Kabalites and Wyches. I absolutely LOVE the Raider and Ravager design. Incubi are frak beautiful. Reavers are amazing.
Thats what I want to play because I like the models.
Even when Grotesques, Wracks and Pain engines got buffed to Taudar Levels and get Imperial Knights as mounts I dont want to use them. They are not only a stupid concept and poorly written in the novels but the minis are UGLY. Chaos Barbarians with additional spines? Wow... fits perfectly to the sleek Eldar style.
I like the Haemi, but he can leave his circus at his basement.

And whenever I hear "dont worry, Grots are amazing now" or "will be better in the coven supplement" it makes me wanna punch a sandbag long and hard.

Also the whole "court of archon" is borderline stupid. Yes the models look good individually And I really would like to use 1 of each. Why 1 of each? Because they are single pose models that look incredible stupid if you use 10 Lhameans in the same pose with the same face.

notts wrote:

HERO wrote:

notts wrote:

HERO wrote:

I don't know how you guys stay positive with these rumors.  It boggles my mind really.  It's either that you guys deliberately look past the suck and try to salvage what we have left in the army book.  Glass half-full kinda people.

Either that, or you're all new to the army, to the hobby, or to the edition, and just haven't experienced and seen the change of army books as much as some seasoned veterans.

I've been playing the army for 14 years, and I can tell you that I'm really scrapping the bottom of the barrel of this pathetic release of an army book.

it';s just the optimistic people vs pessimistic people.

I'd read the rumours and came to "2 solid buffs, the rest nerfs"

the burning eye has it at about 10.

reading his thoughts pushed me up to 5 buffs.

Hmm.. maybe I just don't see it like that.  I'm more of a realist, and if there's a huge amount of nerfs and only a handful of buffs, it's pretty clear what my mood should be.

I'm interested in knowing what you would consider to be the buffs?

the two I initially had were scourges getting 4 weapons,. and razorwing moving to FA

after Burning Eye's post, I also added court of Archon improvement, free deep strike, and splinter rack's.
pfp and the change to the vehicle upgrades are things i see as potential buffs, but also potential nerfs.

@ expletive deleted, I am in exactly the same boat.
I made an Ig army, but absolutely HATE playing with them. gunlines are boring as. Moved to Deldar as I loved the models.
GW business wise been turning me off for years, and they also killed my main fantasy army (Empire).
If the book is totally rancid, I'll be boxing my DE, and sticking with BFG as my main hobby output!
I'm ok losing. I'm not ok going into a game knowing I am exceedingly likely to lose, and large parts of the army are just unusable.

To toss in another one, Mandrakes look like they've received a bit of a boost. Talos squadrons also seem nice. The flat 3 attacks is a bit meh, but at least it makes you more consistent, even if it's going to be less effective 50% of the time. Less frustration when you keep rolling 1s, or for your opponents when you keep netting those 6s.

HERO wrote:

Quote :

the two I initially had were scourges getting 4 weapons,. and razorwing moving to FA

after Burning Eye's post, I also added court of Archon improvement, free deep strike, and splinter rack's.
pfp and the change to the vehicle upgrades are things i see as potential buffs, but also potential nerfs.

I think this completely depends on how the weapons are priced, as I didn't like Scourges in the first book and I don't see myself taking them in the second book.  If the prices remain the same, there has to be a really big price drop for the Scourges for me to consider them.

Razorwing moving to FA is one thing, but the fact of the matter is they also nerfed the Heavy Slot Ravagers with the removal of Aerial Assault.  Without a reliable weapons platform in heavy, this change is almost meaningless to me as the FA slot has never been crowded.

Archon's court got improved, I'll give it that.  I never took them though, just too expensive, too elaborate, and I see this as a way to sell fancy Finecast models.

Free Deep Strike is the one of the only times I will say that is a solid improvement.  More player options is always welcome!  Splinter Racks as well, I just hope their price remained the same.

I don't see PFP as a buff, nor do I see it in Combat Drugs.  Re-roll wounds for the entire unit is very, very good (which we will be losing), so this is a more a lateral fix more than anything.  PFP is a tricky one because that's not how I envisioned the army to be.  Dark Eldar should be strongest in the BEGINNING of the match while they have everything intact and capable of making daring and exciting raids.  If they had PFP in reverse, I would like the army much more.  Everything in the fluff suggests that Dark Eldar are raiders, and raiders don't like sustained action and are very hit-and-run.  This PFP means you get stronger as you stay, which 1, is unrealistic vs. any opponent worth their salt, and 2, defies rationale.

I can see where the designers' fantasy was when he envisioned Dark Eldar wreathing in the terror, agony and blood of combat, and thus getting stronger as the game goes on, but in terms of real game application, this is not the case at all.  Good fantasy, poor implementation, whereas if you turned it backwards, you would abide by the fantasy, and had stronger ingame results.

PS - Aethersails are a solid buff as well, as long as their prices stay small and if they no longer have that rule that means they can't shoot next round.  This would mean huge positioning opportunities for gunboats

I love the scourge models, but they werent great. rumours is 5 with 4 heatlance is 120 pts. not bad.
I'll use proxies for archon court. I do like this change a lot. bit of variety!

I also dont think PfP or vehicle upgrade are buffs. sideways if anything. vehicles get a better save. IF you didnt want to shoot with them next turn, and IF the enemy can't ignore cover and IF you're not imobilised.

My main complaint really is that it seems they want to force us to be all reserves on turn 1, and I really hate that.

in regards to ravager losing aerial assault, they also lost av 11, their only defence is cover save (meaning you cant return fire) and have to pay for lances. overall an extremely heavy nerf.

@Panic puppet, Talos' went up in points, and are still slow as anything. I don't see squadrons as a boost really if the unit itself sucks,

Quote :

I also dont think PfP or vehicle upgrade are buffs. sideways if anything. vehicles get a better save. IF you didnt want to shoot with them next turn, and IF the enemy can't ignore cover and IF you're not imobilised.

The Night Shields as the only option for Raiders is not a buff, it's a nerf when you look at what's out there right now. 3+ Jink is nice and all, but you lose the option to escape death from Ignore Cover elements from Tau and Eldar. This essentially means you auto-lose Raiders to them instead of being able to save via Flickfield. I would take a 70 point FF Raider over a current 70 point NS Raider anyday. The fact that Stealth is meaningless in Night Fighting whereas all the other vehicle dodge options in the game reap some benefit (Disuption Pods, Holofields) means we're holding the short-end of the stick.

The Scourge models with 4x Heat Lances for 120 do sound nice, but that might be a little more than I would like to pay for that unit. They're not very durable and a sneeze out of nowhere will see them dead.

I haven't heard that Ravagers have to pay for Dark Lances, that seems outlandish. If that is true, then they are intended double/triple-nerfed, which is just unreal because it's not like they were considered that good to begin with :/

HERO wrote:

Quote :

the two I initially had were scourges getting 4 weapons,. and razorwing moving to FA

after Burning Eye's post, I also added court of Archon improvement, free deep strike, and splinter rack's.
pfp and the change to the vehicle upgrades are things i see as potential buffs, but also potential nerfs.

I think this completely depends on how the weapons are priced, as I didn't like Scourges in the first book and I don't see myself taking them in the second book.  If the prices remain the same, there has to be a really big price drop for the Scourges for me to consider them.

Razorwing moving to FA is one thing, but the fact of the matter is they also nerfed the Heavy Slot Ravagers with the removal of Aerial Assault.  Without a reliable weapons platform in heavy, this change is almost meaningless to me as the FA slot has never been crowded.

Archon's court got improved, I'll give it that.  I never took them though, just too expensive, too elaborate, and I see this as a way to sell fancy Finecast models.

Free Deep Strike is the one of the only times I will say that is a solid improvement.  More player options is always welcome!  Splinter Racks as well, I just hope their price remained the same.

I don't see PFP as a buff, nor do I see it in Combat Drugs.  Re-roll wounds for the entire unit is very, very good (which we will be losing), so this is a more a lateral fix more than anything.  PFP is a tricky one because that's not how I envisioned the army to be.  Dark Eldar should be strongest in the BEGINNING of the match while they have everything intact and capable of making daring and exciting raids.  If they had PFP in reverse, I would like the army much more.  Everything in the fluff suggests that Dark Eldar are raiders, and raiders don't like sustained action and are very hit-and-run.  This PFP means you get stronger as you stay, which 1, is unrealistic vs. any opponent worth their salt, and 2, defies rationale.

I can see where the designers' fantasy was when he envisioned Dark Eldar wreathing in the terror, agony and blood of combat, and thus getting stronger as the game goes on, but in terms of real game application, this is not the case at all.  Good fantasy, poor implementation, whereas if you turned it backwards, you would abide by the fantasy, and had stronger ingame results.

PS - Aethersails are a solid buff as well, as long as their prices stay small and if they no longer have that rule that means they can't shoot next round.  This would mean huge positioning opportunities for gunboats

They changed the fluff a bit in the 7th edition rule book for dark eldar. 99% of the time they will hit and run, but in that 1% where they fight a foe worth a damn they will stay and fight to the death because their bloodlust overcomes their reason. Since most battle reports represent that 1% I think the new PfP rule makes perfect sense.

That's not true.  Remember that the battles in relation to time and turns ingame are relative.  6-turns can be a 5-minute fight in real time.

Succubuss with armor of misery and PGL wwp deep striking with a spirit seer with psychic shriek... yum...

@ hero
Also.. if the losses I sustain in most battles count as typical raids... my kabel would go extinct in a week ! But your point is taken!

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

Succubuss with armor of misery and PGL wwp deep striking with a spirit seer with psychic shriek... yum...

@ hero
Also.. if the losses I sustain  in most battles count as typical raids... my kabel would go extinct in a week ! But your point is taken!

Collect the body parts and brew more dudes

Hey, so with all the BS nerfs we got, a question has come to mind regarding the splinter cannons.. aside from costing more and going salvo(Damn you GW idiots) ...

IF SC are venom mounted... are they still now 36 if it does not move and 18" range if it moves? I do not give a rats ass that they can still move 12 and shoot... or shoot 18'..which means the glass ball has to get too close to ANY enemy to do any damage and will then go down in flames to louse bolt gun or pistol fire..... and that 18' range, swear the douche at GW who wrote this putrid upgrade must have thought.. hmm, i really hate DE s o how can I screw the people over more? I know, I will cut the range in half,that way they have to get into 18" range.. then all the SM Baies can move 6" ,get into 12 " range and DOUBLE TAP the venom to death with boltguns or even shoot it down with pistols....... THAT will further teach any DE player to bother playing this army any more....

..Hmm, now about those fragile wyches we screwed over years ago and now are only good for AT with HWG... YUP, TAKE THOSE AWAY-hell with people spending $4 on those models...

--Incubi.. I know, no grenades, no onslaught, no blood template wargear....
--OH AND lets COMPLETELY SCREW OVER the HQ section........
--New Model Release? WooHoo!- What? Large blast template for the mine.. ok,just 1 though ..oh and lets make it AV10 ,no vector dancer,no shields, make it still the most expensive and fragile flyer in the whole frikking game....
---Talos, hmm, make it so can take 3? suuuurree, for 120 EACH oh and no D6-nerf ya with lousy 3A, keep them slow as snot

HOW can anyone who plays this wretched game say this is a good rewrite over all(unless you HATE DE and ONLY play SM,IG..) and allow this drivel to be released and sold... the review and grading on this is a SOLID FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I REALLLLLLLY NEED TO GO WRITE A PISSED OFF LETTER TO GW... I AM SICK OF EVERY ARMY I LIKE OR WANT TO PLAY GETTING NERFED OUT OF EXISTENCE OF MADE SO YOU CANNOT STAND ALONE, HAVE TO TAKE...UUUGGGHHH... ALLIES....

Sorry,just getting sick of it.... worst of all, even IF you wanted to sell wyches due to them being screwed.. WHO in their right mind would buy useless minis? No I need to debate on chopping off 30 reaver helmet heads off my custom wyches because they cost a pretty penny,and use them on warrior conversions...

I will be asking friends for friendly games using /playtesting out the changes I would have liked to see in the codex and see what happens, then play, maybe, a game using the putrid new codex and see how bad it really goes.

Archon Rievect wrote:

Hey, so with all the BS nerfs we got, a question has come to mind regarding the splinter cannons.. aside from costing more and going salvo(Damn you GW idiots) ...

IF SC are venom mounted... are they still now 36 if it does not move and 18" range if it moves? I do not give a rats ass that they can still move 12 and shoot... or shoot 18'..which means the glass ball has to get too close to ANY enemy to do any damage and will then go down in flames to louse bolt gun or pistol fire..... and that 18' range, swear the douche at GW who wrote this putrid upgrade must have thought.. hmm, i really hate DE s o how can I screw the people over more? I know, I will cut the range in half,that way they have to get into 18" range.. then all the SM Baies can move 6" ,get into 12 " range and DOUBLE TAP the venom to death with boltguns or even shoot it down with pistols....... THAT will further teach any DE player to bother playing this army any more....

..Hmm, now about those fragile wyches we screwed over years ago and now are only good for AT with HWG... YUP, TAKE THOSE AWAY-hell with people spending $4 on those models...

--Incubi.. I know, no grenades, no onslaught, no blood template wargear....
--OH AND lets COMPLETELY SCREW OVER the HQ section........
--New Model Release? WooHoo!- What? Large blast template for the mine.. ok,just 1 though ..oh and lets make it AV10 ,no vector dancer,no shields, make it still the most expensive and fragile flyer in the whole frikking game....
---Talos, hmm, make it so can take 3? suuuurree, for 120 EACH oh and no D6-nerf ya with lousy 3A, keep them slow as snot

HOW can anyone who plays this wretched game say this is a good rewrite over all(unless you HATE DE and ONLY play SM,IG..) and allow this drivel to be released and sold... the review and grading on this is a SOLID FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I REALLLLLLLY NEED TO GO WRITE A PISSED OFF LETTER TO GW... I AM SICK OF EVERY ARMY I LIKE OR WANT TO PLAY GETTING NERFED OUT OF EXISTENCE OF MADE SO YOU CANNOT STAND ALONE, HAVE TO TAKE...UUUGGGHHH... ALLIES....

Sorry,just getting sick of it.... worst of all, even IF you wanted to sell wyches due to them being screwed.. WHO in their right mind would buy useless minis? No I need to debate on chopping off 30 reaver helmet heads off my custom wyches because they cost a pretty penny,and use them on warrior conversions...

I will be asking friends for friendly games using /playtesting out the changes I would have liked to see in the codex and see what happens, then play, maybe, a game using the putrid new codex and see how bad it really goes.

What combat drug did you roll?

Archon Rievect wrote:

Sorry,just getting sick of it.... worst of all, even IF you wanted to sell wyches due to them being screwed.. WHO in their right mind would buy useless minis? No I need to debate on chopping off 30 reaver helmet heads off my custom wyches because they cost a pretty penny,and use them on warrior conversions...

Eh, be creative. I always wanted to add stripper poles to my raiders, just pull'em off the base and now I have the strippers.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

Archon Rievect wrote:

Sorry,just getting sick of it.... worst of all, even IF you wanted to sell wyches due to them being screwed.. WHO in their right mind would buy useless minis? No I need to debate on chopping off 30 reaver helmet heads off my custom wyches because they cost a pretty penny,and use them on warrior conversions...

Eh, be creative. I always wanted to add stripper poles to my raiders, just pull'em off the base and now I have the strippers.

loooooooool thats the right attitude ;D

HERO wrote:

Archon Rievect wrote:

Hey, so with all the BS nerfs we got, a question has come to mind regarding the splinter cannons.. aside from costing more and going gay salvo(Damn you GW idiots) ...

IF SC are venom mounted... are they still now 36 if it does not move and 18" range if it moves? I do not give a rats ass that they can still move 12 and shoot... or shoot 18'..which means the glass ball has to get too close to ANY enemy to do any damage and will then go down in flames to louse bolt gun or pistol fire..... and that 18' range, swear the douche at GW who wrote this putrid upgrade must have thought.. hmm, i really hate DE s o how can I screw the people over more? I know, I will cut the range in half,that way they have to get into 18" range.. then all the SM Baies can move 6" ,get into 12 " range and DOUBLE TAP the venom to death with boltguns or even shoot it down with pistols....... THAT will further teach any DE player to bother playing this army any more....

..Hmm, now about those fragile wyches we screwed over years ago and now are only good for AT with HWG... YUP, TAKE THOSE AWAY-hell with people spending $4 on those models...

--Incubi.. I know, no grenades, no onslaught, no blood template wargear....
--OH AND lets COMPLETELY SCREW OVER the HQ section........
--New Model Release? WooHoo!- What? Large blast template for the mine.. ok,just 1 though ..oh and lets make it AV10 ,no vector dancer,no shields, make it still the most expensive and fragile flyer in the whole frikking game....
---Talos, hmm, make it so can take 3? suuuurree, for 120 EACH oh and no D6-nerf ya with lousy 3A, keep them slow as snot

HOW can anyone who plays this wretched game say this is a good rewrite over all(unless you HATE DE and ONLY play SM,IG..) and allow this drivel to be released and sold... the review and grading on this is a SOLID FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I REALLLLLLLY NEED TO GO WRITE A PISSED OFF LETTER TO GW... I AM SICK OF EVERY ARMY I LIKE OR WANT TO PLAY GETTING NERFED OUT OF EXISTENCE OF MADE SO YOU CANNOT STAND ALONE, HAVE TO TAKE...UUUGGGHHH... ALLIES....

Sorry,just getting sick of it.... worst of all, even IF you wanted to sell wyches due to them being screwed.. WHO in their right mind would buy useless minis? No I need to debate on chopping off 30 reaver helmet heads off my custom wyches because they cost a pretty penny,and use them on warrior conversions...

I will be asking friends for friendly games using /playtesting out the changes I would have liked to see in the codex and see what happens, then play, maybe, a game using the putrid new codex and see how bad it really goes.

What combat drug did you roll?

HA, I do not think even the covens have a name for it yet......... just venting frustration..........Guess I am the Aggro Prone Archon from the Kabal of the Shredded Codex

Have you read the codex to be so pissed ?

I can't believe that GW will make DE THAT bad. I mean, look at the price they are selling their models, why would they make the codex so bad ? To make sure nobody want to buy them ?

Anyway, the codex is supposed to be released by 4th October.

I read the codex at my FLGS today. It's about as bad as we all thought. S3 liquifiers... and they're 15 points now as well. Grots got flesh gauntlets and a cc weapon, so that's an extra attack at poison 4+, which at least lets them reroll. And they got rampage. Still L3, but the haemonculus got removed so good luck taking more than one squad of them. Only the Haemie ancient now. Oh, and they're still that stupid frak one pose $25 model, so who cares that they got buffed? Mandrakes are 12 points a model starting with baleblast, with stealth and shrouded. Scourges are 16, and the voidraven is as bad as everyone said it was. Who the frak releases an $80 model for a unit that gets nerfed that hard? Oh, and the razorwing has to pay for its dark lances now. Yay. Shadow field is 40 points now, but you don't lose the save until the end of the phase (or turn, can't remember) you took a wound on.

Every DE player who is not on here and buys a codex will all have the same acronym coming from their mouth..W>>T<<<<F<<<H<<<<<< GW, smart as a bag of 'nerf' hammers, sharp as a marble, Bright as a cave that lot is..

I have to say... raising the SF to 40 points!? Damn GW should have made it so it does not get destroyed if 1 is rolled..... Wonder hat it would have been like to listen in on the 'development' of the codex.......

About the only 2 things I may like off top of my head- you can tailor the Court as you like now and WWP MAY offer an amusement ..... send in 3 Over Priced ,NERFED Taloi and a warrior unit and see what happens....

jbwms713 wrote:

Step one.

No, this will not be a thread made of sparkles and sunshine talking about how amazing everything will be.

No, this will not be a thread made of doom and poopcicles talking about how horrible everything will be.

This will be a thread dedicated to a realistic approach of what (as far as we know) the army will be, and how it will function, and how it will (if possible) function well.

We've already had one thread locked due to petty infighting and bickering.  Opinions differ.  It happens.  Let's not derail everything... it's not horribly productive (if sometimes therapeutic) to let out all of our would-be teenage angst against the gee-dubs.

@Archon Rievect - did you actually read the first post? This is not the thread for hate and vitriol...

Massaen wrote:

jbwms713 wrote:

Step one.

No, this will not be a thread made of sparkles and sunshine talking about how amazing everything will be.

No, this will not be a thread made of doom and poopcicles talking about how horrible everything will be.

This will be a thread dedicated to a realistic approach of what (as far as we know) the army will be, and how it will function, and how it will (if possible) function well.

We've already had one thread locked due to petty infighting and bickering.  Opinions differ.  It happens.  Let's not derail everything... it's not horribly productive (if sometimes therapeutic) to let out all of our would-be teenage angst against the gee-dubs.

@Archon Rievect - did you actually read the first post? This is not the thread for hate and vitriol...

+1. In fact after reading detailed rules (thanks to Scorpion ) I see various possibilities in our upcoming codex. IMHO it's not so terribly bad as I imagined first.

EDIT: My local store has just sent the codex and datacards supposed to arrive in 24 hours. I'm so hyped!

Rievect, please calm down. I don't want to backseat mod, but I'm worried you're putting yourself in the moderation firing line too often with some of the stuff you're spewing (seriously, don't use the word "gay" as a pejorative, not cool). They'll send the khymerae round if you're not careful!

+1 to Mr believer and Massaen

Happy thoughts!