Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex

Yea 12 beastmaster with agoniser seems possible.. though beastmaster keep beast unit type with their special skyboard

6 Reavers, with 2 Cluster Caltrops and 2 AV weapons, along with an Arena Champion w/ Agonizer is something I'm keen to use.

My army will still have wyches. Sure they may be pants now, but they're the only unit we have that can seize a held objective.

You know you can toss the fire dragons in a wave serpent and just deepstrike the wave serpent cause why not?

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Ravagers on the other hand got more expensive, lost arial assault and lost flicker fields, meaning they will be firing at BS1 if you want a save (so they will have to depend on terrain for cover saves).

Blasterborn get ahead Ravager. Sadly they are not turn 1 AV, only Turn 2. So you still need Ravagers, however better or worse they are.

The PayneTrayn wrote:

Actually, since the Talos has the Smash rule (as a monstrous creature), all of its attacks are resolved as AP2, unless the weapon's AP is better. There's some shenanigans in the Chaos Marines codex with a Daemon Prince and one of their artifacts, IIRC.

Black Mace is usually AP4 when used by a chaos lord, but when equipped by a daemon prince becomes AP2 and becomes filthy against massed infantry. So yes all Talos attacks are at AP2 due to rules conferred from being a monstrous creature.

I've also noted that reavers can now be taken up to 12 models (from 10 before), so 4 special weapons/equipments are now available for mass rending HoW and overwhelming assault.
This unit was good. To me it is as good as before, if not even better.

The formation is delicious. 4+ save in the open with Night Shields is great. Get the raiders into position and have the passengers unload starting turn 2. Jink in place or shift 6". Sure your Lance will snapfire but the passengers don't have to(unless you move and they have heavy weapons).

Venoms as a FA is gold. The poison must flow.

The Bomber is a hi or miss with me. It's damage output is potent but even an intercepting quadgun will either force you to jink or pen you and shake/stun you anyway. It won't be an issue if your opponent is within bombing range; as you can bomb before interceptor. The armies that want to get close are usually Orks/Nids. So the Void Bomb is overkill and only 1 shot. I feel like several RWJF are the way to go as they come with missiles already.

The revamped Succubus is good, and our only source of AP2 for HQs. Her glaive is nifty but the two-handed profile is strictly better, but you'll never not take it. WWP her in with some grots or wraithguard and let the pain begin.

The coven formations are fantastic. I ordered two pain engines for the Haemy/Talos/Cronos squad(Yes all three form 1 unit). I'm going to WWP them in next to my Kabalite's Raiders for that +1 to FnP bubble. Plus they will have IWND by turn 3 thanks to the Haemy and being from the coven supp. The Pain Engines also get +1 WS/I.

Pain Engines in general are great. Especially that 1-3 come in a unit for only 1 HS slot.

WWP in general are crazy good. Depending on which HQ you give it and what squad they're attached too make for a lot of possibilities. A few max Coven wracks with the Oss and a Haemy for Fearless wracks behind enemy lines. Or two squads of 20 kabalites and a Haemy for instant FnP and dakka as shock troops. Courts of Sslyths escorting an Archon. 10 Wraithguard and a Succubus.The possibilities go on.

Very very initial thoughts/builds/tactics to try:

- a unit of 3 Talos: have ALWAYS wanted this!
- 1 or 2 individual Chronos: floating behind the Talos wall, simply for the FnP buff early on to the Talos (as they have FnP now!!!) and to any other units that arrive via deepstrike/reserve mid game
- WWP Archon w/ Reavers: OMG really now!! So let me get this straight, the Archon and the Reavers no scatter DS in, Skilled Rider allows us to pass dangerous test, so they can melta/blaster away from a perfect position, Jink during enemy shooting phase, and jump out and get stuck into assault.....pity about the lack of assault grenade tho....
- Razorwing now in Fast slot: so as well as fielding my 5 T7 4+ FnP monsters I can now field 3 "assault jets" as they were affectionately known back in 5th. Now your talking my language
- mix of Medusae and Lhamaean in a Raider: Ld 9 appeals greatly but the build of 2/3 templates with the rest in poisoned 2+, ID on 6s is what I'm really on about.
- Grotesques now rocking FGs: Flesh Gauntlents enmasse....at 5 attacks per model....this is going to hurt...something big....and very quickly...!! Could even field your Hamie w/ FG with these guys for the Ld boost, Master of Pain boost and webway access

Everybody loves that formation of haemy/talos/cronos; yes I've also ordered my second talos/cronos box

This might a bit too soon but anyone else thought about syndriqs sump (coven relics) + huskblade? A poisoned (4+) huskblade justs sounds tasty! Run little wraithknight..

Brom wrote:

This might a bit too soon but anyone else thought about syndriqs sump (coven relics) + huskblade? A poisoned (4+) huskblade justs sounds tasty! Run little wraithknight..

Is that combo even possible? A haemonculus cannot take a huskblade, and I thought I saw someone list what units can and cannot be taken using the coven supplement which only included coven units (meaning not an archon)?

Ah your correct thats too bad.

Ah well I know I'll be running the archangel of cleansing pain in my next game against daemons though! In fact in my xenos meta I'm really thinking that item along with soulfright is borderline OP'd.

So I looked at the new rules for Irillyth and Shadow Spectres. They would be perfect allies, especially Irillyth to combo with the -2Ld DE get from relics. His Shadow of Death forces enemies to roll 3d6 and pick the highest for Ld tests within 12". The re-vamped Ghostlight makes for great fire-support.

Oh and if you make him your Warlord you can re-roll Night Fighting. Because we are what goes bump in the night...

Does it work against marines?

Lord Azrael wrote:

Does it work against marines?

Yes. The only thing that doesn't work on them is the Archangel of Pain relic and the Soulfright launchers.

Imagine unleashing the AaoP, having someone with the Armor of Misery and Irillyth nearby? Leadership -4 on 3d6, pick the highest and take a wound for ever point failed? That's pretty brutal.

Nusquam wrote:

Lord Azrael wrote:

Does it work against marines?

Yes. The only thing that doesn't work on them is the Archangel of Pain relic and the Soulfright launchers.

Imagine unleashing the AaoP, having someone with the Armor of Misery and Irillyth nearby? Leadership -4 on 3d6, pick the highest and take a wound for ever point failed? That's pretty brutal.

It is pretty brutal, but not against marines. I dont know about you, but thats about 2/3s of my matches in my gaming group that this stuff is useless in.
As i dont like building tailored lists thats a rather large chunk of points dedicated to stuff that only works in a 3rd of games...

Fearless i can understand, but would it have killed them to let this stuff work on ATSKNF?

Heck now marines are mainly Ld8 you don't even need the Archangel of Pain.

Here's a sneaky little leadership nasty that occurred to me today, that even works against marines (if the're close enough to the board edge).

Give a character the Armour of Misery (you were taking that anyway, right?) and then tank shock that unit sitting on the board edge. As tank shock is in the movement phase if it doesn't work you can still disembark, shoot them and charge if necessary, but it does give you the chance to send them running off the board without even pulling a single trigger.

If your group allows the use of more than one detachment, you could always also add some Coven units from the supplement for that -1Ld bubble and ally in a Hemlock Wraithfighter and some Wraithseers with Horrify and Terrify and Psychic Shriek. That plus the Armour of Misery and lots of PGL, TGL and Shrieks will guarantee hilarity to ensue.

I always wanted more psychological warfare for the Dark Eldar and now it's possible! wh00t

Skulnbonz wrote:

Tactics wise, at least for tournaments, even the new, improved units will not be that effective.

So, my ideas will be based on tournaments.

6. Reavers.
Now this is a unit with some teeth. Sadly, it is only truly effective when coupled with: Eldar. Anyone surprised? Anyone?  They too suffer from anti cover shots, but their speed, toughness and ability to hit and run make them not only viable, but even desirable.   Ally in an autarch (for reserve buffs) with a good save, a good weapon and even a banshee mask, and watch this unit of hard hitting bikes become even more deadly.  A soon to be favorite tactic will be to get as close to the enemy as quickly as possible to use the enemies OWN units as shields from incoming template weapons.  Just be very sure that when you assault, the caltrops (mandatory include now) are front and center after 1 fleeb to absorb overwatch, because only the units in BTB on the charge inflict HOW hits.
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I actually see 3-6 as a very good light armor hunter...2 heat lances kills stuff dead but think of all the glances 2d6 strength 6 shots puts on a rhino or a chimera...

Braden Campbell wrote:

So... ravagers became more expensive while able to do less? Who thought that was a good change?

all de players already own at least 3 ravagers...we need to sell more taloses and void ravens...same reason GW does anything...

Ravagers are still better than void ravens. In fact this whole idea that GW updates codexes to sell more of X model is silly. Tons of new and old models never get good rules no matter how much we wish it.

Case in point is the afor mentioned void raven. It sucks. You are better off with the ravager. Yet its a new $80 kit. How can that be?

It goes back to the old Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which is just as easily ascribed to stupidity.

there is this little gem i used to use back in 4th when i ran 18 jet bikes,

Fly 3 raider's straight forward and park them sideways in front of units to block LOS, usually units with heavy weapons that couldn't move and fire.
Probably not the best option around, but now we can take empty raider's for next to nothing. if you want to beef up a bit for annoyance, give them NS and EA to make sure you can get them where you want them.

Sorry Braden. Ravagers don't seem competitive at all right now. If you're taking DLs then they're 20 points more expensive than they used to be, and they only thing they gained in the exchange is the ability to Deep Strike. Now, with Night Shields (for the cost of a power sword) they get Stealth so parking them in cover would be +1 better, but now you're looking at 140 points for a vehicle that can be taken down by a few lucky heavy bolters, and only has 3 dark lances.

Haven't had the time to read through every post here, but I'll throw out the interesting tactics I've noticed so far. I haven't played a game yet, so lots of testing required obviously, but I see potential.

1. Reavers - We can all agree reavers changed a lot. Not going to comment on whether for better or for worse, but they are still very mobile and very viable options. Aside from the obvious anti-armour capabilities, I see two tactics that could have a lot of potential with them. First, with their hit and run, we have freedom to move in and out of assault. We have a lot of options in the rest of our army for fast movement or pinpoint deepstrike, but sometimes we just want or need to focus on a specific target and can't get to them all. It can be dangerous to take out a problem unit if there is a heavier hitting/shooting enemy nearby. Enter reavers - use them to tie up units you aren't able to deal with right now, or that you want to prevent from moving, shooting or countercharging. Reavers can then pop out and move on to tie up another unit that is causing trouble. Second option with reavers is to block your units from being charged. Again I see a good combo with no-scatter DS - get close with a shooty or template unit, then after casualties have been removed, turbo-boost your reavers into a line blocking off that, or any other unit from charging your newly arrived unit. It may sacrifice the reavers to a charge, but they will get overwatch and have hit and run to get out and do it again.

2. Scourges - Aside from deepstriking, I think scourge have a lot of potential starting deployed. We have a lot of other units that will benefit more from deepstriking, be it with WWP or in a vehicle, and we need to have half of out units on the board. Scourge are highly mobile, and with Haywire blasters have a 36" threat bubble in which they don't care about armour facing (wave serpents aside). A couple units moving up the board may even be able to knock out some armour before deepstrikers arrive to mop up the softer bits inside.

3. Grots - ID, plus liquifiers on all of them. Expensive, but durable and killy as heck. With a WWP get them exactly where you want. Similar to a medusae bomb, but more expensive, however they will probably survive the return fire and be able to charge on your next turn.

From the upcoming supplement release (as long as released details are correct):

4. Really interested in trying out the formation with a haemie and two units of wracks. If the haemie is your warlord, it automatically gets the warlord trait that grants +D3 points if he is killed by an AP1/2 weapon and both units of wracks gain precision strikes. It's a suicide unit, but I think it could prove effective. Give a WWP to the haemie and stick him with one of the wracks. DS near a deathstar or another troublesome character and his unit. Liquify (and potentailly use the blocking technique above to prevent a charge), and then on your next turn, liquify a second time for fun and charge. Challenge the leader with your haemie - take as many wounds as you can, and direct all precision hits from the wracks to power weapons in the unit. If the haemie dies (and against a lot of special characters probably will) you get points. Once the wracks can fight the leader, direct precision hits to him now instead. When he's taken out you get points again. Effectively this suicide unit could cost as little as 155 points and has the potential to take out units far superior and far more costly than itself.

Those are the 4 tactics I'm most eager to try out....

Will go back and read through all the others posted here as soon as I get the chance.

Sensei - re your second point, there's no longer a rules requirement to have half your units on the board - don't know if you meant that because of a rule or just so that we've got enough still alive at the end of turn 1.