Is the Agoniser still King?

[quote="Nepenthe"]

Evil Space Elves wrote:

Haven't tried the Archon with djin blade/poisoned weapon with a soul trap. Talk about a NASTY bastard! Sounds like a fun painting project too.

Then you'll have the joys of instant deathing yourself with your s6 self-inflicted hit from the djinn blade... [/quote
FTW! Nobody said being awesome didn't have risks.

I'm going to throw this out there.

I was a huge venom blade fan, and I still love it. I thought Agonziers were to overpriced.

Then I ran into BA with FNP and Plague marines.

Agonzier really comes into its own when dealing with 3+/4+ units. There are a lot of them in Texas and in our competitive scene. A venom blade does a lot of wounds, but all the saves don't really do anything when you come against BA, CSM and even those pesky Orks and Bugs with the docs and Tervigon powers.

Anyhoo, agonzier is the better way to go unless you know you won't be facing BA or others. I'm not much of a fan of the price, but yeah...

Sorrowshard wrote:

Err, your figures suggest it is only 50 percent better on meq

50% = half again So I agree with you.

Sorrowshard wrote:

and you did not supply figs for assault termies, if it actually was 'three times better' my support for the vblade would be less vocal

It's three times better versus regular Termies.
It's about 1/3 better versus Assault Termies. (.26 wounds versus .33 wounds)

GAR wrote:

Then I ran into BA with FNP and Plague marines.

This is a good point that I wish I'd thought of first - FNP owns V.Blades.

would not be putting wyches with FnP stuff anyway ? would you ?

Its neither much better mathematically or in practice (dice don't roll .5's and so on) 20 points is alot ? how can you not see the agoniser is overpriced, especially on a sgt level model with only 2 attacks, maybe it's just me, I don't think a power weapon that wounds on 4+ is particularly amazing not when marines have one that wounds on 4's most of the time and gets t3 stuff on a 3+ for less .....

Guess we will have to agree to disagree, though I think if you ran the costs as a factor per kill you would see what I am talking about, have you even tried Vblades ? I ran them on a hunch and they worked better than I expected, subsequently I do not use agonisers and have not missed them one bit and have more points to play with.

Sorrowshard wrote:

would not be putting wyches with FnP stuff anyway ? would you ?

Versus Blood Angels and Nurgle, I have and I probably will again.
I avoid Nobz if at all possible.

How do you deal with Plague Marines and Blood Angels with your Wyches? Do you just Gunboat with the Wyches? There's lots of times you are Haywiring up stuff and then you're out in the open and you're either going to assault that unit with a melta or you aren't - and I think assault is always better.

Sorrowshard wrote:

Its neither much better mathematically or in practice (dice don't roll .5's and so on)

It's math - here's how to translate the .5s and the ilk. Let's look at the .2 and .3 with wounds versus Assault Terms;

An Agoniser will cause one dead Assault Term for about every three wounds she inflicts prior to saves.
A Venom Blade will cause one dead Assault Term for about every five wounds she inflicts prior to saves.

So, with each causing about 2 wounds a turn, an Agoniser will kill a Term about every other round, and a Venom Blade will do so about every third round.
Make sense?

Sorrowshard wrote:

20 points is alot ? how can you not see the agoniser is overpriced, especially on a sgt level model with only 2 attacks, maybe it's just me, I don't think a power weapon that wounds on 4+ is particularly amazing not when marines have one that wounds on 4's most of the time and gets t3 stuff on a 3+ for less .....

The debate isn't about what Marines can do. I'd love to have AV 14 all around transport vehicles with multiple guns that can split fire for my DE as well - that doesn't mean the Ravager is inherently bad. It's just what it is.

The Agoniser is what it is - and what it is is a tool that is very good at killing MEQ and does so better than the Venom blade. With the Agoniser I usually win assaults vs. Marines, without it I would not do so as much. That is worth 15 extra points to me - that's all I'm saying.

Sorrowshard wrote:

Guess we will have to agree to disagree, though I think if you ran the costs as a factor per kill you would see what I am talking about

Since the Agoniser is better at killing MEQ, probably if you look at the value of *what* it kills, the Agoniser would do quite well.

Sorrowshard wrote:

have you even tried Vblades ?

I will admit, besides Haems, I have not run them in this edition. Mathematically they haven't really changed from last edition though, and neither has the Agoniser - so I don't feel as though I'm totally in the dark on them.

Could you describe your usual Wych squad and your usual results vs. Space Marines with the V.Blade?

Sorrowshard wrote:

would not be putting wyches with FnP stuff anyway ? would you ?

Sometimes you don't have a choice. I would not normally go assaulting them, but against BA, lets say, 3 razorbacks loaded with assault marines and a priest. My wyches have to wreck the vehicles so the rest of my AT can focus on rifle dreads or landraiders or whatever. Those heavy flamer predators are brutal and I don't want any of my forces going anywhere near them.

I usually have enough to wreck a couple of the vehicles, but not enough to surround and wipe out the guys inside. next turn they jump out and assault. I'm stuck.

At least with the agonizer, I can stand a chance of pulling some models down with me and win the attrition battle.

Plague marines are hard as nails to pull off an objective in cover. Shooting just doesn't do enough to wipe them out, especially if they go to ground.

Yeah, good point on Plague Marines too - it's awfully nice to assault those chumps off objectives.

Though I do like to use Trueblasters for shooting them off on occasion.

I bring it up because I had played a lot of guys around here in Texas, and with the number of BA players around spamming priests ( which who could blame them, I'd do it)

Since my wyches act as tank hunters, if you can surround and pop, you have models left over to deal with.

if you have not checked out the stats for Wargamescon, and I don't remember what Adepticon was like, but there were almost 30 BA players at WGC.

At a couple of local tourneys I played at for a warm-up try my lists out, I always face either a BA or CSM list and FNP was a big thing to deal with.

And the nids have a power they can give out FNP. Hive Guard with FNP or even warriros and a prime are just brutal.

Agonizer solves this problem.

I agree against guard or eldar or tau or a lot of other high armor save armies it doesn't make any difference.

You have lots of CSM players local? Lucky! I think we have...2, and one is edging Grey Knights.
We do have the usual slurry of Space Vampires though.

Crud, I forgot to mention, 8 Plague marines in cover gone to ground... Trueblasters or lances are a hard sell. There just aren't enough shots when you take into consideration other armor threats.

Thor665 wrote:

You have lots of CSM players local? Lucky! I think we have...2, and one is edging Grey Knights.
We do have the usual slurry of Space Vampires though.

There are several here.

One of them loves BA and Death Guard. FNP is kind of his thing. LOL.

I also like to point out that if the Ag kills 1 marine, it has made its points back. While if the VB kills 1, it has tripled its points back. The problem then goes to that the VB allows saves, the Ag doesnt. So its alot easier for that one helatrix (or syrien) to kill 1 marine with the Ag

GAR wrote:

Crud, I forgot to mention, 8 Plague marines in cover gone to ground... Trueblasters or lances are a hard sell. There just aren't enough shots when you take into consideration other armor threats.

Isn't that what liquifiers are for, though?

Nepenthe wrote:

GAR wrote:

Crud, I forgot to mention, 8 Plague marines in cover gone to ground... Trueblasters or lances are a hard sell. There just aren't enough shots when you take into consideration other armor threats.

Isn't that what liquifiers are for, though?

No. My wyches usually go tank hunting. So they are wrecking transports that were not targeted in the shooting phase.

Against mech heavy BA & IG especially, you usually don't have enough AT to do any real serious alpha strikes, or at least the transports are what is left over. So my wyches go attack them, and usually I have enough to surround and kill the unit inside when they can't get out.

Unless you face a parking lot in which case you are multi-charging and not assaulting and surrounding.

Agonzier is great for dealing against the follow up charge from the survivors if they have good armor saves or FNP.

To the original question, “is the Agoniser still King?” Nope, it’s still royalty but I don’t see it as the “no brainer” option it maybe once was.

A lot of this is due in part to the flexibility and sheer number of HTH weapon options in the new codex. As well as the expanded roles of other characters, i.e. you're probably just as likely to see an Archon with just a Blaster as you are an Agonizer or other Hth weapon.

I was always a punisher fan, would have loved it more if it survived the last codex - imagine it with furious charge, glorious.

Oh well, agonisers are a necessary evil in my books for the wyches and hellions - not so for HQ's and others, I do like to experiment in these cases.

Curious though, does the Acothyst do better with 3 attacks from a Scissorhand than from 2 attacks of an Agoniser? (include the re-roll as my wracks often have 2 tokens thanks to urien).

Would love to see the math there.

Sorrowshard wrote:

would not be putting wyches with FnP stuff anyway ? would you ?

I would if that means it will win me the game.

Quote :

Its neither much better mathematically or in practice (dice don't roll .5's and so on) 20 points is alot ? how can you not see the agoniser is overpriced, especially on a sgt level model with only 2 attacks, maybe it's just me, I don't think a power weapon that wounds on 4+ is particularly amazing not when marines have one that wounds on 4's most of the time and gets t3 stuff on a 3+ for less .....

I think your math is a little off. The Hekatrix will have 3 attacks, 4 on the charge. The agoniser is a power weapon, so it will benefit from the additional close combat weapon rule.

And remember the agoniser is still able to wound something much tougher and ignoring its armour save. A venom blade can and will wound more frequently, but it does not negate armour that much, and is reliant upon your opponent making the failed armour saves to make it work. The agoniser does not allow your opponent a chance to save themselves unless they have an invulnerable save.

I rather that they take a worse save than a better save any day. The only real reason why I would put a venom blade into a squad is because I already have an Archon or a Succubus with an agoniser in the squad to prevent an overkill.

The Agoniser is slightly weaker than its previous incarnation (the days where Agonisers can kill vehicles is fun), but nonetheless compared to the other weapons in the Archon's arsenal it is the most reliable one. It kills when it needs to, and spares people the flowery nonsense of a half-butt attack.

If given a true choice for a weapon, I would take the Klaivex and a soul-trap for my Archon. But alas, they do not give us that option.

Quote :

Guess we will have to agree to disagree, though I think if you ran the costs as a factor per kill you would see what I am talking about, have you even tried Vblades ? I ran them on a hunch and they worked better than I expected, subsequently I do not use agonisers and have not missed them one bit and have more points to play with.

Tried Venom Blades before, and they do work wonders against some foes. But they are just that, a wound multiplier, rather than a killing weapon. Venom Blades is almost entirely useless against anything with a Feel no Pain or anything with a 2+ armour.

I am currently using only one venom blade in my army and that lucky model is a Hekatrix, as the squad that the venom blade-wielding wych is the bodyguard for the Archon. Two agonisers in one squad is devastating to the extreme, and I need to tone it down for my squad's survival.

@Kwi - I actually did the breakdown once for Grots - don't think I've seen it for Wracks...hmm, okay, I'm game;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acothyst w. Furious Charge vs. Marine, charging

2 Poisoned Weapons - 4 attacks - 2.6 hit - 1.95 wound after re-roll = .65 dead Marines

Scissorhand - 4 attacks - 2.6 hit - 1.73 2.31 wound after re-roll = .77 dead Marines

Venom Blade - 3 attacks - 2 hit - 1.93 wound after re-roll = .64 dead Marines

Agoniser - 3 attacks - 2 hit - 1 wound = 1 dead Marine
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Needless to say, the Agoniser continues to perform better, because that's what it does - it kills Marines.

A fascinating find is that the 2 Poisoned Blades are actually superior to the single Venom Blade - which is kinda funny and slightly unintuitive. Not what I expected there, but when you stop and consider the potency of the extra swing once re-rolling is included it makes sense...not that a .01 difference is amazing - but it's certainly not worth paying 5 points for

The Scissorhand is superior to both the base build and the Venom Blade, but even with the re-roll is a bit weaker versus Marines than the Agoniser due to its inability to crank up to 5 attacks - if only he had a pistol or a regular stabby knife.

The Agoniser, as usual, delivers its solid and dependable showing of a dead Marine on the ground - no shocks there.

Thor665 wrote:

@Kwi - I actually did the breakdown once for Grots - don't think I've seen it for A fascinating find is that the 2 Poisoned Blades are actually superior to the single Venom Blade - which is kinda funny and slightly unintuitive. Not what I expected there, but when you stop and consider the potency of the extra swing once re-rolling is included it makes sense...not that a .01 difference is amazing - but it's certainly not worth paying 5 points for

It is just like how a twin-linked BS2 assault gun is always better than a BS 3 rapidfire gun. The Orks proved that point time and time again.

Quote :

The Scissorhand is superior to both the base build and the Venom Blade, but even with the re-roll is a bit weaker versus Marines than the Agoniser due to its inability to crank up to 5 attacks - if only he had a pistol or a regular stabby knife.

The Agoniser, as usual, delivers its solid and dependable showing of a dead Marine on the ground - no shocks there.

Hm.... an Archon with Scissorhard. That would be quite an interesting proposition if it ever happens.

He'd have a harder time getting to the sweet re-roll stage.
But, yeah, I don't foresee that wargear piece ever filtering down to us - we are going to have this codex for the next 12-15 years y'know

I am actually quite interested with the prospect of mathhammer in regards to the Djinn Blade, as it is a weapon that could potentially be Chuck Norris-like, but can also kill the archon while the Archon's at it.

Despite the probability of getting doubles for the self-inflicted masochistic rule, I have never gotten it throughout my games with the Archon

Like any weapon it depends how you want to use it and who against, as a dark eldar player you should be leading the first assault and being the most aggressive player on the board but if you want to haul a squad of warriors around in a raider whats the point of spending 20 points on an agoniser when your not going to use it. With the wyches Its not usually the smartest thing to run them into something with a high toughness (5+) in fairness the shear amount of attacks they dish out can change the tables but why put a whole squad into a battle where only 1 can fight back? Personally i use venom blades and power weapons and anything that I can't take out, well shoot at it! Also its another one of those 40K things that on paper sounds brilliant but in practice is rubbish

Grub wrote:

Personally i use venom blades and power weapons and anything that I can't take out, well shoot at it!

Well good for you. And I would say enjoy situations where you will not have enough things to kill them fast enough or locked into a situation where you have to charge a squad of something you do not like. For this argument , I would say ' Here's looking at you, plague marine and terminators".

Venoms blades are good against some opponents, but if you face off against something with feel no pain, it will just falter. Power weapons are just that, power weapons. If it is a str 4, it will be fine, but as it stands str 3 is just pathetic and relies too much on 5s and 6s to even do anything and waiting for that drug to give you a str 4 is highly erratic, and for 5 more points (agoniser) or 10 more points less (venom blade) you get something far more reliable.

In addition, there is a reason why the Agoniser is still around despite the advent of the other weaponry; it delivers. It kills anything, some better than others. The cost may be something, but it is a good all-rounder.

I will give venom blades for wyches that are escorting the Archon and haemonculi to make them decent if they are forced into combat.

[quote="Crisis_Vyper"]

Grub wrote:

Personally i use venom blades and power weapons and anything that I can't take out, well shoot at it!

Crisis_Vyper said "Well good for you. And I would say enjoy situations where you will not have enough things to kill them fast enough or locked into a situation where you have to charge a squad of something you do not like. For this argument , I would say ' Here's looking at you, plague marine and terminators".

The way I see it you should never not have enough to shoot at in the first couple of turns because you should charge your entire army down one side getting rid of the closest threat. I mean if you keep it unfair like that 1500 vs 500 your always going to win against anything, I mean even 1 ravager in theory can kill 9 on average 4/5 terminators a turn with disintergrators making them much less of a threat. But again if you do want to run say a wych cult or something similar then by all means take an agoniser but as related to my previous post it depends on how you want to use your army, if you cant take down something thats coming towards you that you will struggle with in cc then run away, no point sacrificing a unit for the possibility of maybe a few lucky kills. I often play Grey Knights and my opponent will field as many paladins and terminators as he can (with a HQ that makes them troop choices). Even my bloodbride squad with Lellith Hesperax with furious charge, can take them down with little problem, the 4++ takes away the biggest advantage the terminators have, especially if your ravager has already munched through a lot of them. Fair enough you won't kill them all first round of assault but that is a good thing as it stops them getting shot. Even if I have to assault something I don't like e.g. terminators or paladins DE get a fantastic amount of attacks and will almost always go first. Even a paladin squad shot with a handful of warriors and then assaulted by a few wyches will suffer several losses. You may not win the combat but terminators can't chase down which in a way can give you a sort of hit and run rule. Essentially bogging down a hammer unit which is sometimes the best thing to do!

I don't have anything to say regarding the OP and don't want to seem unpolite or even rude, but Grub, I think your posts would be easier to read if you structurized them better with paragraphs and such. As it is, they keep being confusing walls of text.

Again, no offense. Just saying.