Is the Agoniser still King?

Sorrowshard wrote:

Now this is the problem, you probably went with and agoniser on your hek so now she costs over 40 points all by herself, the pistol will rarely be in range more then once a game and then it will rarely do anything its far from being a melta pistol (priced like one though)

I did say I would prefer a blast pistol on the wych, but that does not mean I would use it. I said it would be enticing, not a must. It is a decent option, but that does not mean you would take it without hesitation. It could be complimentary to the Haywire grenades, but you have to see the overall list to consider it.

Same goes with the Venom blade and the Agoniser. They are good options, but one option should not be ignored for the other. I find that they are complimentary weapons rather than opposites. The Venom blade helps with the wound stacking, while the Agoniser is good for its constant negation of enemy armor and also FnP.

Both weapons wound consistently, but the main thing about those weapons are the role that the weapon plays in the army. Do you see yourself against FnP and/or 2+ armour? Do you see yourself fighting horde? That nature in the ends determines the viability of each weapon.

Quote :

Crappy over priced lances is prob one of the few things that pisses me of about our book, Hemonculus Arcane wargear is another.

I think the lance spam is just fine by my books. But I think that is because I played with a lot of armies where I struggle to balance up the spam of heavy weaponry.

I hate having to always roll a 4+ to wound something. I hate having to roll the same with power weapon wielding Marines, and I especially hate it with expensive characters. IMO, the advantage of the Agonizer (always wounding on a 4+), is totally negated by the fact the ENTIRE ARMY has poisoned weapons. Why on earth would I assault a Hive Tyrant when my lowliest infantry can simply shoot him to death? I definitely feel Agonizers are incredibly overcosted, particularly when a good combat drug roll or a couple pain tokens will get you the same effect 90% of the time. Lately I've been taking power-weapons instead Agonizers, and a lot of the time it works out just as well.

I'm actually sorta surprised by the lack of good ol' standard power weapons. With drugs and tokens, it's roughly the same exact thing, and actually better against low toughness enemies than an Agonizer. And half the price. IMO, the Agonizer is a relic.

I agree in certain situations the Power Weapon does equal or better than the Agoniser - but not in a way that doesn't seem fair to the cost of both weapons. Here's my way of thinking;

Vs. T4 Enemy

With WS increase - Agoniser kills more
With +1 Attack - Agoniser kills more
With run speed increase - Agoniser kills more
With re-roll of damage dice - Agoniser kills more
With Pain token - Agoniser kills more unless it bumps you up into Furious Charge, in which case they kill equal
With Strength increase - They kill equal unless you get a second pain token at which point power weapon kills more.

I'm not sure I'm really sold here.

Vs. T3 Enemy

With WS increase - Kill equally
With +1 Attack - Kill equally
With run speed increase - Kill equally
With re-roll of damage dice - Kill equally
With Pain token - Kill equally unless it bumps you up into Furious Charge, in which case the power weapon kills more
With Strength increase - Power weapon kills more

What I see (and this is ignoring the situation of ever dealing with an assault on Plague Marines or Bikes or any other T5 unit - which, honestly, Wyches prefer to avoid)

I see;

Agoniser is better - 5
Agoniser and Power Weapon are equal - 7
Power Weapon is better - 3 (two of these situations require both a pain token and +1 Str Drug)

Also, as a personal opinion - you run into T4 way more than T3, which skews the numbers even stronger in the Agoniser's favor.

Looks like the Agoniser is superior in a way that justifies its increased cost - at least to my way of looking at the situation.

^Agreed.

I love agonisers, especially on Archons. Most CC combat squads/characters would benefit with one, especially if fighting armys with lots of high toughness units like 'Crons and nids.

Just thought: does anyone ever combine scissorhand with agoniser on a haemy? would that even work or would the 2 or more special weapons rule negate that?

Painbiro wrote:

Just thought: does anyone ever combine scissorhand with agoniser on a haemy? would that even work or would the 2 or more special weapons rule negate that?

That wouldn't work as you suspected.

I like agoniser on wyches and hellions but have dropped them from wracks and haemys - haven't noticed a drop in performance since. The venom blade on the haemys pretty much fall in line with the wracks "death-by-armor-save" mantra however I am thinking the scissorhand just a little too costly - has anyone done a comparison on the scissorhand versus regular 4+ poison on an Acothyst?

Sorrowshard wrote:

Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....

I hope you do not mind but I had to sig this, absolutely hilarious!

I have an Agoniser and blast pistol on my Solarite, Sybarite and Hekatrix, and will continue to equip them this way - not only does the Agoniser look cool, it's a fantastically useful piece of kit which, as Thor pointed out, works out better than any other option in most cases. And the blast pistol gives the squad some short ranged pistol punch which will insta-kill most enemies after it negates their armour save. I don't care how much it costs, people see the tooled up squad leader coming towards their guys and think "Uh-oh". I've almost always given the squad leader the best gear they can possibly have, from when I gave every Ork Nob a power claw, big shoota and 'eavy armour. I like tanky leaders, what can I say?

What about the agonizer on the archon... maybe the power weapon would be better on him in more cases? Just spit ballin here after reading all the pros and cons. As the WS of the archon is already awesome, and the high number of attacks and all... then with a PW he gets better use out of the combat drugs and then from pain tokens?

Just a thought.

If the power weapon was the base cost as every other unit, then yeah I could see the benefit, but at only 5 points cheaper than an ago, whip or Djinn blade.......... I think that extra 5 points is worth it for the extras that those options give over the standard power weapon......

TBH, although they are very good, I havent got a single ago in my list atm..... going with Djinn blade and power weapons on my squad leaders... keeps them a bit cheaper, and utilises FC more, and use splinters for MCs, and other high T targets...... but once I can shake out a few spare points, I deffo will be upgrading a few

I am a big believer in the Djinn blade right now TBH, but you have to accept that every now and again u will kill yourself I guess the power weapon reduces that risk.

I don't think the Agonizer is still king because of Djin Blades, Huskblades and Venom Blades. Options are always nice because they all have different functionality. However, I will say that the other ones preform better with the almost mandatory Soul Trap tax

venomblade, always. statistically the best bang-for-your-buck CC wep in the DE codex.

The Agoniser is dead, long live the Venom Blade.

Closing this thread as it is very 5th centric, feel free to start a new 6th edition one though.