Drazhar Poll - would he be worth it competitively for 90 points?

Had a conversation here; http://www.thedarkcity.net/t10437-drazhar-7ed-rules

And made the statement that I wouldn't field Drazhar even if he cost only 90 points.
I think this is a good measuring bar for how questionable his use is, and was curious if others felt the same.

So, here's the deal - you're going to a competitive event, you will expect to see players trying to win the games to earn prizes.

The TO has ruled that Drazhar will remain exactly as he is in the codex *except* that his point cost is now 90 points. All other models, units, and rules in all other books remain unchanged.

Would you field him?

I think he has a really high "shoot me" factor from previous codexs. If someone played DE before 7th and saw Draz they would probably want him to die very fast. That being said, A scare tactic against someone who does not know better is about it.

Nope. As he has to join Incubi or remain solo and has no invul he adds nothing to the army at all.

It would actually encourage me to field a unit of Incubi. Something I rarely do these days. I'd give it a whirl!

I would have to say no also. I'd rather take another squad of Incubi if I'm going to pay 90 points for a CC monster. What hurts Drazhar the most is the Incubi restriction. If he could join Grots or another unit to give them Fearless and handle 2+ saves, then I think he would be worth it for 90 points. But if I have to join him to Incubi, then I'd just rather take another four man squad with a Klaivex. 90 points obscures his true cost, which includes transport and Incubi tax. Unless you run him solo which I guess you could do, but I don't know why anyone would want to.

Sweetbacon is being fairly eloquent with some of my thoughts as well. I do agree, if he didn't have the Incubi restriction I could see running him as he would actually be a solid boon to a unit of Grots by giving them a lot of AP2 swings, which is definitely one of the few things that would slow them down (though even then he's probably too pricy, but I'd definitely do it for the 90 if that was the case).

@Count Ad - so is it the kind of unique thrill attracting you, or do you think it would actually be a good unit for the points?

I'd take 5th ed Drazhar for 90 points, with 3 incubi and an pgl archon with a venom. That's about it.

Thor665 wrote:

@Count Ad - so is it the kind of unique thrill attracting you, or do you think it would actually be a good unit for the points?

For 90 points I'd say he's actually a decent unit in his own right. Yes, there are drawbacks but for 90 points I'd be willing to work out ways to overcome them.

Can we turn this into a game of some kind? Best list with 90pt draz in it? First win?

Well, at 90 points, if you buy him an Archon Buddy (most expensive grenade upgrade ever) you've spent the same as you would on Lelith.  If you gave the Archon an Agonizer/Huskblade & Soul Trap you'd be spending the about same amount as you would for the current Drazhar.  That would be something like 10+ attacks at AP2/3 at an initiative higher than most models.  That's a lawnmower of a tandem that's probably going to put most infantry blobs in retreat and subsequently swept up.  Then factor in that Drazhar doesn't have a Warlord trait and the Personal tree is a pretty solid tree for him.

Too bad it's not real, I would certainly try this combo in a heartbeat

Nothing will take away that getting into combat is a little easier said than done, but still!

Yea

Im not sure if I would take Drazhar but I know that option would be in my head everytime I made a list. Hes too awesome and cheap for (90 points) not to take but then I remember no grenades and Incubi only...

2 things that really affect my decision about Drazhar and Incubi.

1. The Incubi are finecast. I don't know about any of you guys but I REFUSE to buy anymore finecast. As a huge modeler buying it and dealing with it really takes the enjoyment I get out of my hobby trying to deal with it. If the incubi were not finecast I would probably really consider this option as I love the models.

2. They compete with Grotesques. In this version of 40k I really need that T5 3wW and liquifier guns that the grotesque brings to the table, amongst other great attributes they have. Putting in Lelith getting her to be majority T5 and flying them up the table is tooo much fun for me. I can also be safe knowing that an explode result will probably not cause any wounds let alone kill any of them. The idea is that Lelith and 4 grots is hyper synergous about attacking units with higher model counts than them. plop in an aberration for challenges you wouldn't want to put her in, how many are there really? With how cheap the rest of our army is I can feel safe pumping quite a few points in that unit. Yes it is a basket waiting to be smashed but I feel relatively safe putting them on the table.


Incubi are excellent do not get me wrong but you can be more reckless running those grots around.

I honestly expected my own opinion to be a bit of an outlier - but it is sad that when Draz's cost is cut by over 50% that the opinion on him still appears to be split as to whether he would even be worth fielding. If I cut Lelith's cost by even another 20-30 points I think she'd become a must include, if I dropped her to 75 I think she'd be an always include. Same for Urien with a drop to 70 (though that would be dumb with Haems now being what they are )

As a wild claim - is Draz actually the worst thing in the codex?

Like, with anything else in the codex, if I dropped its cost by half, is there anything else you wouldn't field? At 50% cost I think Wyches might advance to 'okay' status. Maybe even Mandrakes. Hellions...eh, they'd still be wusses but would be super cheap. I guess Bloodbrides would still kinda suck in relation to Wyches. I think the Voidraven would be flat out great.

So Bloodbrides and/or Draz - worst unit in the dex?

Quote :

As a wild claim - is Draz actually the worst thing in the codex?

No. Hellions come to mind.
Actually a few tweaks here and there would make a very good codex. You would not even need to add something all too fancy.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Quote :

As a wild claim - is Draz actually the worst thing in the codex?

No. Hellions come to mind.
Actually a few tweaks here and there would make a very good codex. You would not even need to add something all too fancy.

Tweaks are beside the point (though i agree with you, i think with very minor changes our codex would be a power dex...but that's true for a lot of codices).

I think at half cost Hellions wouldn't be bad at all. They're certainly not impressive, but at half cost per model? I bet we could find a use for them. I am not of the same opinion on Draz - does that not suggest he is theoretically 'worse' than them then?

Problem with Hellions, even at half cost, is they're in the FA slot. I'd probably still take reavers and scourges over hellions at half the cost. Making them troops is probably the only thing that might convince me to use them in all but the fluffiest games

Quote :

I think at half cost Hellions wouldn't be bad at all. They're certainly not impressive, but at half cost per model?

They still compete with all the other units in the FA section like Scourges, Razorwing and Reavers.
And then again... just compare them to ork stormboys for 9 points.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Problem with Hellions, even at half cost, is they're in the FA slot. I'd probably still take reavers and scourges over hellions at half the cost. Making them troops is probably the only thing that might convince me to use them in all but the fluffiest games

I'll agree other stuff is good, that said, 20 jump infantry for 130 points is not embarrassing either.
I will agree they'd still not be good - but at that price point they're a pretty impressive amount of shooting and are fast moving and are a good board control tool. If you also made them troops you wouldn't need to convince me, actually, I'd take them. All it takes is a role change and a half cost shift

The short answer: no.

The long-ish answer: In spite of having been a close combat army in the past, that Raider has sailed and Dark Eldar are now, like almost all armies in 7th, a shooting force.

The majority of CC elements we do have are: innefficient (Wyches, Hellions), overcosted (Hellions, Incubi), fragile, and lack grenades. Wracks and Grotesques are "okay" because they at least have the toughness and the strength to put out consistent damage.

Drazhar does not improve the unit in any real way, compared to a Haemonculus. With his lack of an invulnerable save, and lack of grenades his gear leaves much to be desired. Sending him in solo is not an option nor is sending him in with Incubi.  Not only do they compete with Grots and Trueborne but at 7 points more than Howling Banshees, I don't see the value. Judging from how many people use Banshees, many people don't see the value in them either.

90 points could be another Venom or even, for 5 points more, a Raider with a Disentegrator and 5 Kabalites. We can always use an extra loaded Raider, but we can never really use Drazhar.

Yeah, people don't use banshees because fragile assault troops without assault transport = walking kill points. I'm willing to bet we'll see banshees a bit more now they can use our raiders as transport!

That is an interesting thought on the Banshee vs. Incubi question.
I think my answer would remain 'Scorpions and Grots' though

well, at 90 pts you actually get a cc monster that can be a pain in the ass. as a secondary hq it can wreak havocs. still, i'd take him only in 2000 pts games

The main reason i do not like Drazhar is the same reason i dislike the incubus, id rather they were just on bikes i find that tough 4 helps me more than a 3+ armor save could help any day, Other than the worlds largest bullet magnet his only use is hanging out with incubus making that squad an even larger target.

If I could I would ally drazhar and put him with eldar and take the harlequins. Put them in a raider because Harlequin shadowseers give grenades to the whole squad.