Drazhar Poll - would he be worth it competitively for 90 points?

Draz doesn't play well with others.

Thor665 wrote:

Draz doesn't play well with others.

Cos he's grouchy they've not given him pretty new armour.

He's great been having great success with him.

I feel like people aren't really considering how little they'd be paying for what they'd be getting.

Draz has the statline of a Pheonix Lord, with eternal warrior, fearless, PfP, and Rampage. He gets 2+ armor and demiklaives on top of his S4 T4. Sure, he has no invuln save, but that doesn't make him anywhere near worthless.

So he can't join anything except incubi? Yeah, bummer. However, throwing him a min-sized Incubi squad as ablative wounds would still be cheaper than paying his current cost, and you'd have a certified guinsoo blade extraordinaire slicing and dicing in CC. You simply can't come close to matching Drazhar in CC for 90 points with any other HQ in the codex.

And if you REALLY hate incubi? Fine, throw Drazhar solo on a quad gun behind an aegis defense line. For 90 points, you get the defensive equivalent to 3 terminators behind an aegis, and you're firing that quad gun, hitting on 2+. Someone fires AP1 or AP2 stuff at him? Go to ground, take your 2+ cover save instead.

If they don't shoot at you, you've got a potent anti-aircraft/anti-skimmer unit, and cheap HQ rolled into 1. And if they DO shoot at you, well...

I'd be happy to let my opponent pour a bunch of fire into a 3 wound model with 2+ armor, 2+ cover, 3 wounds, and eternal warrior. While they're focus firing a single model, I'm sure my units are just having a good old time, raping, raiding, and eliminating threats. And if they decide they want to close the distance to try to assault? Bitch, I'm Drazhar. Come see me.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

You simply can't come close to matching Drazhar in CC for 90 points with any other HQ in the codex.

I thought that was what the Succubus with Archite Glaive was - with the added benefit of being able to join any unit I wish. One on one - she is capable of kicking his butt in combat not even counting cover. 5 point difference from the magically cheaper Draz.

I will agree - her existence actually suggests Draz *should* be about that point level, but I just wanted to point out she exists. Those combat capris come cheap.

Thor665 wrote:

One on one - she is capable of kicking his butt in combat not even counting cover. 5 point difference from the magically cheaper Draz.

I will agree - her existence actually suggests Draz *should* be about that point level, but I just wanted to point out she exists. Those combat capris come cheap.

Yes, in a vacuum, she would defeat him 1 vs 1. The thing is, that would never happen that way, and there are other considerations.

1. The succubus has zero protection outside of a unit, so she's likely going to have troops with her, potentially setting off Drazhar's rampage special rule during their challenge. The more attacks Drazhar generates, the more likely it is for his murderous assault to trigger, and for the succubus to end up taking a loss in the combat.

1b. Also, because she has no protection outside of CC, she basically HAS to be placed with troops, whereas Draz could conceivably be put in cover on a quad gun, or in a vehicle solo near as much worry.

2. In later turns, when they'd both have furious charge, Drazhar can Insta-Death her with a single wound.

But I digress, if Drazhar were 90 points, this would be a valid argument. The fact that he's over double that, and that we're capable of debating his usefulness against another character that costs less than half that says volumes about the competitiveness(or lack thereof) of his current incarnation.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Yes, in a vacuum, she would defeat him 1 vs 1. The thing is, that would never happen that way, and there are other considerations.

1. The succubus has zero protection outside of a unit, so she's likely going to have troops with her, potentially setting off Drazhar's rampage special rule during their challenge. The more attacks Drazhar generates, the more likely it is for his murderous assault to trigger, and for the succubus to end up taking a loss in the combat.

1b. Also, because she has no protection outside of CC, she basically HAS to be placed with troops, whereas Draz could conceivably be put in cover on a quad gun, or in a vehicle solo near as much worry.

2. In later turns, when they'd both have furious charge, Drazhar can Insta-Death her with a single wound.

But I digress, if Drazhar were 90 points, this would be a valid argument. The fact that he's over double that, and that we're capable of debating his usefulness against another character that costs less than half that says volumes about the competitiveness(or lack thereof) of his current incarnation.

1. Are you actually advocating a solo Draz? I don't see this as an advantage on his part, particularly. It's like 'hey, this sub-optimal play option, he can do it better than her!' To which I respond with - sure...so?

2. Yes, though she might get +1 toughness drug, or any of the other drugs that would allow her to kill him earlier, and depending what she got, if she charged him or he charged her in cover she could potentially end him before he got the swing. But this is an advantage he has over her, I do agree.

Agreed.

Thor665 wrote:

1. Are you actually advocating a solo Draz?

Yes. In the fantasy world where Draz is 90 points, I would consider taking him solo in a vehicle, or solo on a quad gun. I'm sure I could make it work in certain lists.

But meh, in reality he's 190 points, and I have no way of justifying his inclusion at that cost.

Heck, if you want the quad gun thing just take an Archon with minimum Mandrakes for, functionally, a better effect and at only 6 points more than the magical theory Draz.

I still don't advocate it though...

Thor665 wrote:

Heck, if you want the quad gun thing just take an Archon with minimum Mandrakes for, functionally, a better effect and at only 6 points more than the magical theory Draz.

I still don't advocate it though...

It's not better, or even the same effect, because said archon doesn't have the CC power of Draz in that case. And while what you're suggesting WOULD have 3 more wounds, 3 of those would be on a model without eternal warrior, they'd all be T3 instead of T4, and the best armor save in the unit would be 5+. So if your opponent fires something that ignores cover, that unit is screwed. Draz has access to both a 2+ armor save, AND a 2+ cover save, so he can force the enemy to dedicate much more to his destruction if they really want to remove him. I'd venture to say that most of the time, solo Draz would be harder to kill than a minimum archon and minimum mandrakes squad behind an aegis.

My point is, for the points value at 90 points, there are certainly arguments to take him in a number of different scenarios.