A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

MONSTER MASH DE

Corpsethief Claw Detachment: 650  
5 Talos, FNP, Haywire Blasters

Dark Artisan Detachment: 415
Hamonculus, Agoniser, WWP, Nightmare Doll
Talos, Chain Flails, TL Heat Lance
Chronos, Spirit Syphon

Primary CAD: 781
Haemonculus, Flesh Guantlet, Syndriq's Sump, WWP
4 Medusae, Venom, Dual SC
2x Kabilite Warriors, Venom , Dual SC
2x 3 Reavers, Heat Lance, Caltrops
Ravager, 3 Dark Lances

So here is the DE monster mash list ... seven MCs which is enough for sure. It has no AA - as is common to most DE lists so you need to position so that flyers are behind you most of the time - easy to do with this list. It is relatively durable.

Now about the CSM list w/ escape hatch:

Well ten chosen with plasma are a serious threat with Abaddon. The problem is you either needed a drop pod/raider to move Abbie and now you do not. I love Abbie - he is the beast of beasts. To have him center table turn one/two is pretty good. Is it the best use of an escape hatch. I dunno. Build a list and we can discuss it further.

Hell Blade --- it is an AV10 flyer that costs only 115 pysts. The weapon upgrade is two heavy 3 rending autocannons so it is decent AA. Also  it can move D6+2″ in any direction before it moves (but maintaining the same facing), which can be used to move backward so that you can turn earlier and shoot something that you flew past. So statistically three hell blades will outperform two hell drakes but either way you need some AA.

Duck taking a Ravager? The only thing I would suggest would be to swap the 6 reavers for another venom with blaster. Usually I would say be carefull about running HWB on the talos but 5 with scout will be a big enough threat in the middle of the table to actually get some tanks down I think. Maybe do 3 HWB and 2 HL? I also really doubt you need the incubi and succubus I would argue for more anti tank. But I can not deny that it will be a lot of fun to play. I dig the list.

The reavers stay. they are too good to pass and they are very good bait as well and could grab line breaker or an objective - and really I might say 2x 3 Reavers are even better than six for that purpose. You see on paper the two heat lances on the rwvers make no sense. Likely you may want to jink so only caltrops would be effective - but then you miss the point. With heat lances your opponent views the reavers as more of a threat. You want that. You want to bait the opponent.

Now the only unit I would consider over reavers would be a razorwing with dark lances and two shattershard missiles. This is something that is acceptable BUT my problem is that in this list i have no ida when the razor will arrive. I would need to bait my opponent into clumping up to use it effectively as well. We will one day have to discuss the razorwing and its load out. A razor with splinter cannon and dissies is a great FMC killer. A razor with dark lances and shattershard missiles can hurt vehicles. A standard razor is a great AI asset.

Here is something a lot of players seem to still miss. When you are playing a list like the MC list you really need to try and bait out units and then DS where needed. It is okay to lose a unit. If you lose a venom, lose your heamie/medusae a unit of reavers your ravager - that is okay as long as you keep focused on the mission. You can set up your reavers to take all the fire if your opponent will fall for it.

Now the caveat you say is your opponent is not that silly to fall for it. In reality it works way more often then it fails because your opponent does not know your plan for movement and DS. He is guessing and that means he is reacting rather than being pro active. This is the advantage of scouting/infiltratingDSing.

Indeed.  the other thing is this:  Conventional wisdom will always be to do damage when you can where you can.  Read any forum and they are talking about it.  Kill ratio this and kill ratio that.  

But let me ask any thinking person:  if the unit you planned to use that vaunted kill ratio gets to shoot first..and he's right behind you...  what good did it do you?  All the stats in the world wont bring your Wave Serpent back after I Haywire and shoot it before it can do a darn thing about it.

Here once again are my thoughts. Stop looking at net lists that people say are 'the only tournament build'. We play for fun. We can make our own restrictions and rules. Do I really care if I win the tournament? No. If my opponent is a dick I can just walk away happy. I want a a game I enjoy. So if you are facing an obvious waac list either just say no or teach the guy a lesson in tactics. Your choice.

As to Unorthodoxy's comments.: Yes you can win against obvious spam. These players might beat up baby seals but I'm a duck - an angry duck at that - and they will not beat me up so easily. Bring your wave serpents and FMCs. I'll find a way to grab points and in the end we will see who stands tall.

So go ahead and cherry pick a few codexes for the optimal build that cannot lose. Use allies and formations and whatever other dirty tricks you can think of to create the meanest list on paper. Then we will play on the table and see.

Also the list above was for Ligolski. He wanted a mosnster mash list so I fit in a lot of talos. Personally I would use just one formation:

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11460-testing-corpsethief-once-again#128120

The New Hotness

Necron Wraithwing has now advanced to the almost broken meta breaker. With  Canoptek Formation  the Spyders buff all formation members within 12 inches of them with one of the following rules, chosen at the start of each turn: Shred, Fleet, Reanimation Protocols. You get to choose. Also if you're playing a Decurion detachment all members get +1 to reanimation. Now the Canoptek formation adds a spyder with particle beamer and gloom prism and three scarabs for an 100 points. And spyders are pretty decent units and tough so .... Of course you lose ObSec and really they are already 3+/3+ and i5 for 43 points each. They are S6 Rending  as well. It will take an insane amount of dakka to bring down just ONE squad of six. Spam the squads and your turn two against wraithspam will be bleak. This was not enough though. They are T5 and beasts - ignore terrain as well, lol. And there are a few ways to boost reanimation in the new codex BTW. Wait lets give 'em fleet as well. Why not, eh.

You can do the math on 3++ with 4+ reanimate as well as I can.  Even discounting using reanimation bufdfs and going standard they are mean. You can shoot everything at one unit of five or six which costs a bit over 250 points (using six). You might indeed kill three maybe four. Then the other units will hit you. And what about the rest of the list? It certainly will not be sitting still doing nothing. Say hello to my little friends. The only caveat is no tanking D-lord with them.

What do you tie them up with then. How do you prepare to battle this? They are as durable as invisible hounds or screamers. Well 30 Ork boys can tie em up for four or five turns ( however you are trading points here). I think psychic shriek will certainly hurt them but not enough. They are LD10 - another ridiculous buff. S10 weapons will cause some wounds.

Here is the thing. Necron lists were using less wraithwing. So GW gives them extra toughness, access to RP, highwer initiative and move through cover for charging. Nice. Okay - Iwould play them.

So Necrons were too strong and now with the new codex seems they are even stronger. Lol. I'll go into a few other choice units in the next few weeks. But as of now I'm pretty convinced that wraithwing will be making appearances in the top echelons at every toiurnament until we figure out some very strong counters. Nids can give them a run for sure as I5 vs Nids is not quite good enough but SM, Orks, Tau and Eldar best beware.

But of course we play DE. We might be in trouble. The Decurion is the nnasty as it creates a 4+ RP for every model that already has RP. The new RP is like a super FNP. And the Canoptek formation makes it possible to give everything RP. This makes it very hard to put down Necrons before they can hurt your army. The Obelisk, which is an AV 14 Superheavy with 4 Tesla Spheres that shoot 5 Tesla shots each, can also be taken in one of the formations with the Decurion. Adding Tomb Blades  with guass is not a penalty - these guys are really good now so fighting Decurion is going to be an difficult for Dark Eldar.

I think the power gamers though will be playing combinations of these

Decurion Detachment
Reclamation Legion
Canoptek Harvest
Judicator Battalion
Obelisk

This will be a 4+ detachment wide RP. It has all the good units - you can take a barge lord. ghost ark warriors, wraiths, tomb blades (these guys are very good now), spider, scarabs and obelisk all in one list. It will tough, fast and durable. As good as wraiths are now their support system has been nerfed a bit - no AV13 boats that can fire 6 times after jinking. So I think one unit of six in a list like the one above will be pretty powerful. A ton of relenrtless move through cover 4+ RP models is going to be tough. Think what a loaded ark with warriors will pour out with guass.

Harlequins as allies

So -
Solitaire
WS9 BS9 S3 T3 W3 I10 A6 LD10 3+ Inv

He cannot be joined by a character so he cannot join your players (harlequin troupe)

Well he has DS, EW, Fear, Fearless, Fleet, Furious Charge, H=R and Precisionj Strike - nice

You get automatic wounds and glances on a 6 AP2. He also gets one automatic S6 AP2 attack that my ID on a 6. Once per game he gets 10 Attacks with plus extra movement. Normal movement is 12". But on turn 3 he could get an extra 18" - although unlikely (roll a number of D6 equal to the turn number).

Give him haywire for 5 pts and he is 150 points.

Troupe

You can take him a a troupe of players … kitted out of course w/ 2 kisses, a caress, embrace and a nearo disruptor. This costs 148 points. Now they have lousy saves - just a 5+ inv. But they hit like a ton of bricks. They have 21 attacks with furious charge and H+R. These guys are only T3 S3 but with kisses and embrace and caress it is okay. They generally will hit first with high WS. They will also be getting a transport of their own but hey they can use a fast attack raider anyway.

Yes, we will likely be seeing them as allies. But they are more fragile than even DE. These are true glass hammers. I'm going top reserve judgement until I see what transport they get and if they get any other psychic buffs or special abilities in new formations. We don't even know what the HQs will bring to the list yet.

Looking at all the recent codex we should expect a slew of detachments and foremations - these will be key in deciding how good harlequins can be.

Not sure on the Harlie Foc yet, but Solitaire being Elite does not allow normal Ally slot. We need to wait for next weeks releases still.

Vasara wrote:

Not sure on the Harlie Foc yet, but Solitaire being Elite does not allow normal Ally slot. We need to wait for next weeks releases still.

I'm guessing it will be a special detachment and/or formation(s) but it could also be a dataslate-style addition to the Eldar/Dark Eldar factions, ie effectively extra pages in those codexes.

Regardless of what comes next I'm sure of one thing. De with or without harlies will be hard pressed to produce a true TaC list. In fact there are few codex out there that can now. What works against Adamantium Lance formation does not wotk against green tide. What works against FMC heavy lists suffer against a bike list or centstar. I think it behooves us now to play what we enjoy more than ever. The problem is any opponent can spam something that we cannot really destroy. At that point we need to be wise and try and win by gaining the mission points without killing the unkillable.

Now an example would be a DE list repleat with units of grots - this a unit that can actually deal with the above mentioned wraithwing and win. Now thinking that grots are good against everything - well think again - much as I love grots they have their weaknesses too. So you would have to target only the wriaths - assuming you can catch them. And expect that two squads will be hard to catch with two squads of grots. Still it as an answer. In the case of wraiths we cannot just ignore them - they are too fast.

So if you agree that in today's meta of formations and detachments it is hard to find an answer for everything you might face, the importance of solid tactics and deployment ( options and placement) becomes more evidently important to have a chance of success.

I think DE is one of the best dex out to build a real TAC-list. With or without allies.

(Disclaimer: don't play killpoints.)

This thread has been valuable to me today. Thank you! I will be getting Necrons TODAY in theory so we shall see what shape they are in but I am hopeful.

Vasara wrote:

I think DE is one of the best dex out to build a real TAC-list. With or without allies.

I totally agree. Phenomenal deepstriking ability, loads of anti-tank options, butt loads of anti-infantry,  great close-combat units in the form of monstrous creatures, Grotesques and even Reavers (and beasts/incubi for fun games), awesome flyer support via the Razorwing, huge mix of unit types in beasts, MC's, vehicles and general infantry... Eldar and DE are perhaps the best TAC armies as far as I can see.

TaC means 'tale all comers' and although DE has some weapons they are weak against flyer lists and lists that are heavy AT also. My mechanicus list has handles a TaC DE list. I'm not knocking DE but there is a reason they are not winning major tournaments.


More Necron Formations - the hidden gems

Flayed One Formation
In a reclamation detachment - flayed ones get 1+ FNP. They can DS or Infiltrate  and get 4+ FNP

20 flayed Ones  are 260 points and you can take multiple units. You can actually take 200 in a decision detachment if you wanted to, lol. And you can take them as their own mini foemation if you prefer.  Flayed ones get 4 attacks base with two flayed claws for +1 attack so 5 att each on the charge with shred and AP5 at S4.  Large blocks of these guys will grab a n objective and box it out.

Living Tomb Formation 
1 Obelisk
 0-2 Monoloths
Special Rules: Formation must be placed in Deep Strike reserve. Do not make reserve rolls for the Obelisk, it automatically arrives on your turn 2. Monoliths do not scatter when deep striking if placed within 12″ of the Obelisk. Immediately after a Monoloths arrives from this formation, choose one friendly Cron unit that is entirely infantry or jump infantry that is in reserve. Place it as though disembarking from the Monolith's eternity gate.Wow you are dumping a lot of models on the table turn two.

Obelisk: 300 pts AV 14, 14, 14, Four Tesla Spheres, and all enemy flyer, skimmers, jetbikes, and Flying Monstrous Creatures treat terrain within 18" of the Obelisk as dangerous terrain. Zooming flyers and FMCs must also take a dangerous terrain test. The Obelisk can be "powered down" and gain 3+ invulnerable, but cannot move or shoot. Deep striking obelisks are always powered up. Once powered up, it cannot power down again.

FOUR TESLA SPHERES - 24", S7 AP-, Heavy 5 at BS4 HP6 - flyers skimmers, vehicles and transports - well ...

Talking to my friend who plays crons, we are thinking based on what we've been hearing that warrior blobs will be back. You have the ability to get 5++ for the whole squad, jacked up WBB rolls, BS bonus from the stalker, etc. These supported by the transport barges, wraithwings, etc can have real board presence.

No question that blobs of warriors with a cryptek or lord will be effective with a stalker nearby. In a reclamation legion they will be hard to kill with 4+ and even decent in cc. Do the squad right and reroll1s as well. Also look at praetorian now. I expect they also will be decent if added to a decurion detachment. On another note a Tomb blade can man an aegis and tomb blades can get ignore cover ( think about this for a minute).

When examining the codex a lot of the units seem better - destroyers (barely used last codex), tomb blades ( only used for maelstrom), praetorian (never used), large footslogging blobs of warriors, c'tans, monoliths, flayed ones and tomb stalkers.

Welcome to the new necrons ...

Future of Crons:

Scarabs and wraiths and inability to deal with fliers

Vasara wrote:

Future of Crons:

Scarabs and wraiths and inability to deal with fliers  

I wouldn't say they have an inability to deal with flyers. Night Scythes are now fairly priced for what they do and are perfectly capable of dealing with enemy flyers. They just can't do it at the same time as jinking. Seems reasonable to me.

It was meant more with comparison to the old dex. Jinking taking away benefit of tessla hits hits them hard.

Vasara wrote:

It was meant more with comparison to the old dex. Jinking taking away benefit of tessla hits hits them hard.

Yeah, well they've had easy mode for the last few years. About time they get to experience the same as every other army when it comes to dealing with flyers.

egorey wrote:

On another note a Tomb blade can man an aegis and tomb blades can get ignore cover ( think about this for a minute)

If it applies to the model and not the weapon, this will be horrible!

Having said for a while that the later codexes have been dialing down the power and all been pretty even, from what I've seen, the new Cron 'dex might just be right back to Eldar levels of silliness.

Overall the book seems to give lots of options which is nice. More options to me means a better balanced book. Crons will be tough to kill, but retain much of the same weaknesses as before at first glance. They have a lot of hard decisions to make if they want all the decurion bonuses.

I have a premonition that the next waac tournament build will be Tau/Cron. Crons will be formations with wraiths ( canoptek). Tau could be firebase cadre or FE with riptides crisis. Either way will be evil. Are they better than before? Well, they were already pretty darn strong, TBH. Some units improved dramatically.

I think ObSec will passed over bt many a Nec player in favour of using the formations from decurion. But if you don't take them as primary you can get ObSec in your main detachment. The strength of the new codex is there insane durability. You can build units that are just very tough and hard to remove with crypteks or lords with orbs joining sqyads of warriors or immortals, shield guarded overlords and characters, armour 14/14/14 obelisks ( these are skimmers for goodness sake), etc. etc. So the builds are out there - the options are numerous. but eventually the waac build will become evident.

Now i probably will not play Necrons but IF I fielded them I would want 60 flayed ones (from formation), 12 wraiths ( from canoptek formation) and a C'Tan ... would be a lot of fun. Or even pure silliness might ensue. Now I'm not writing serious broken lists anymore - that was my promise  - so instead I'll post whatv is a mediocre Necron list that when examined is stilll verging on the OP - that is how good the new codex is.  

Decurian Formations:

Canoptek Harvest
5 Wraiths, Whipcoils
3 Scarab Swarms
Spyder

Canoptek Harvest
5 Wraiths, Whipcoils
3 Scarab Swarms
Spyder

Reclamation Legions
Overlord w/ Res. Orb and Solar Staff  
5 Immortals  
5 Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes   
20  Necron Warriors  
10  Necron Warriors w/ Ghost Ark  

Mephrit Dynasty Formation

Conclave of the Burning One
C'Tan Shard of the Nightbringer
Cryptek, Nightmare Shroud, Solar Thermasite, Phase Shifter
Cryptek, God Shackle, Phase Shifter, Veil of Darkness  

No ObSec but it is battleforged. You have some units that will just be near impossible to kill ... that is the Necron strength - of course this list is not competitive but it will still cause major headaches. The C'Tan foermation is uber tough. With excellent saves and the ability to DS all over the table it will cause some problems. So an opponent will need to first take out the ghost ark and spider - both are problems - one replenshing troops and the other making the list a little too durable. This has to be done while maintaining some distance from those wraiths and flayed ones - both will rip any DE cc squad apart.

So no, we are not talking tweaked lists here. This is just an average Necron list that will be seen in some form or another. Be prepared.

to be fair though 4 attacks at s4 with shred beat pretty much every dedicated assault unit in the game.

and yes i see necron necron lists fully utilizing their formations in the coming months.
the decurian detatchment is an absolutely great listing and way of fielding formations and i wish kabals had something similar

You have to attack their LD and pick off the support elements and you can beat them. But it will be tough.