A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

Yes I understand your issue all too well.

In my meta, I am known as Unorthooxy. But my nickname was not a kindness granted to me, it was an insult.

While you skirt the edges of good taste by taking utterly tailored lists to tournaments, I am the guy who takes Stingwings and some Kroot, didn't use Crisis teams and generally never plyed like anyone.

as a result when i would come with tales of my winning, they were viewed with nothing short of DEEP skepticism by the community, and literal anger. I was told to "stop telling people wrong things" and to "stop giving advice like its sage when its stupid" and all kins of things like that.

I was an outcast in a lot of ways and met with outright judgement at tournaments. People GUNNED for me, out to prove that this "supposedly unstoppable guy with his crap lists" was lying about his success. When I'd bat them they would blame dice and any other handy reasoning.

The reality was this: I grated people the wrong way just by being good at the game and owning that. I WANTED to be part of community, WANTED to offer insight, and was pretty well rejected for it.

It wasn't until I actually got to play some of the RING LEADERS of this hate and proved to THEM I was what I said I was, that this STARTED to go away, but there is still a fair amount of animosity over how those arguments went over time and how those subsequent attempts to dethrone me went. While some of them had to admit I was neither lying about the lists I was using nor exagerating my success with them, they remain upset that I don't seem to do it the right way.

So I sympathize completely with how you feel. and my advice would be to soften your lists and let your generalship shine. In the END, though it took years to break through, the thing that broke me through was my Generalship. They could see that it was good and that at minimum, My lists left them with a chance in any game we played. So they had nothing but their own skill to blame. I think if you softened your lists and started to value Generalship over list building, you MIGHT find some reprieve. The social Contract only requires the ILLUSION of a chance to make the opponent happy. So offer it to them. Give them the appearance of a good chance to win, while planning the endgame from turn 0.

You will lose some games by doing this every now and again. Lists DO matter. But you'll still win the vast majoirty and win back what YOU want in return: increased acceptance.

Now I have made myself an organizer and a teacher, valuable to multiple stores and that has afforded me the freedom to ignore some of the old guard detractors.

I cannot say what the right course for you is, but if you really want and value my advice then hre it is: Power it down and be a better GENERAL for it. Allow them the illusion of weakness and by doing so, you will get what you want: both the win and their decreased antagonism. It may not be fair but heres the maxim i live by: Situation is King. Not Fairness. It is what it is now. Time for damage control.

Most players do not want to play epic, apocalypese style games. There are units that break the mold. A friend asked me to design a list that used his nine vaul's support cannons - he had used them in a damon summoning list ( also no longer usuable). So i though well .... I wil;l add Eldrad for D3 scouting units and place dweapons center table. Nine blasts.

D WEAPON ABUSE 1850

PRIMARY CAD: 1409
Autarch: skyrunner, laser lance 90
Eldrad 195

3x 3 Jet bikes: 2 scatterlasers 213

3x Vaul’s support battery: 3 d cannons, warlock 600

Wraithknight: cannons, scatterlaser 310

CRIMSON DEATH: 440
Crimson Hunter Exarch: starcannons
2 Crimson Hunter: bright lances

Then Nova and ITC notified us they are reviewing rule sets and that they are changing some again. Ranged D weapons (over 12") will be -1. LoWs will be limited to one. Max two detachments (no formation shenanigans as if they count as part of the main detachment). This is indicative of changes to come at tournaments. So of course the local TOs here have jumped that bandwagon. Rightfully so, IMHO, as we want a level playing field otr at least an attempt at one.

So that is a major nerf to d weapons not a small one. No 6 + D6 anymore which really could hurt your opponents MCs and vehicles. Now D3 wounds pretty much pales in comparison although AOE weapons are nice. You will get a pen and D3 hull points but saves are allowed.

A destroyer cannon is will be better than a ranged d weapon, btw. That said they may not implement these changes in your meta. If they do (and I feel it likely) d weapons will be good but not that nasty.
So the list i designed for my friend will be usable but considerably toned down. Now for me that is a plus. He will need to be more careful if he decides to use my build (which he probably will as he wants to field his WK and cannons). He qlso has only about ten bikes so no scatbike spam for him either.

Are these rule sets designed to target Eldar players? Well, they are targeting FW, Garg creatures and d weapons which by extension makes it both easier and harder for Eldar guys to field the models they already own. To me that is a positive step.

ITC released their new rules yesterday.

They changed the d table instead of having a -1

Will be playing a game against another dark eldar/eldar army today.

I will try and remember to take pictures and do a report on the game.

I will be taking the list I have on page 18 of this forum. With the points that I have left to spend on pg18 I will take 5 avengers and give them the dragon wave serpent. Take 5 warp spiders and 6 swooping hawks. No points for the exarch on the hawks unfortunately. Can't think of where to get the points. Need 10pts.

The only thing that I am not too keen about is having to put the hornets into a squadron. So maybe I should drop the hawks or spiders too keep the hornets separate units.

If I do that what should I take instead?

Unorthodoxy wrote:

You will lose some games by doing this every now and again.  Lists DO matter.  But you'll still win the vast majoirty and win back what YOU want in return:  increased acceptance.

I cannot say what the right course for you is, but if you really want and value my advice then hre it is:  Power it down and be a better GENERAL for it.  Allow them the illusion of weakness and by doing so, you will get what you want:  both the win and their decreased antagonism.  It may not be fair but heres the maxim i live by:  Situation is King.  Not Fairness.  It is what it is now.  Time for damage control.

I appreciate the advice. The thing is, I do already use lists that aren't net lists. I use combinations of models/units that aren't being complained about anywhere on the internet. And THOSE are my most effective units. Admittedly, list-building and theory-crafting are one of the most enjoyable aspects of the hobby for me, so it's a hard pill for me to swallow to consider specifically TRYING to make my lists weaker. It's counter-intuitive, and runs contrary to who I am as a person. I think I'd have better luck trying to run whatever was considered the "weakest" army, and doing my best to make it effective.

But I still feel like it's going to be an uphill battle, even if I do that. I think I could probably win with orks, or whatever I put my mind to, which I think will just enforce the feelings that already exist while costing me whatever I spent to put together the new army. Sure, I think I'd get more people who'd give me a go with what they percieve as a weaker faction, but as soon as a few of the "power players" have lost some games, it'll be back to same old, same old.

Out of curiousity, what would you consider the weakest codex, currently?

colinsherlow wrote:

ITC released their new rules yesterday.

Got a link to this? I looked on frontline gaming's website, and it doesn't have an update yet.

They announced the results on their main page.  The polls are in

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/05/08/itc-2015-mid-season-update-poll-results-are-in/

Did a battle report on a game that I had earlier today.

hope you guys enjoy.

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t12206-1750-dark-eldar-eldar-v-s-dark-eldar-eldar#136797

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Unorthodoxy wrote:

You will lose some games by doing this every now and again.  Lists DO matter.  But you'll still win the vast majoirty and win back what YOU want in return:  increased acceptance.

I cannot say what the right course for you is, but if you really want and value my advice then hre it is:  Power it down and be a better GENERAL for it.  Allow them the illusion of weakness and by doing so, you will get what you want:  both the win and their decreased antagonism.  It may not be fair but heres the maxim i live by:  Situation is King.  Not Fairness.  It is what it is now.  Time for damage control.

I appreciate the advice. The thing is, I do already use lists that aren't net lists. I use combinations of models/units that aren't being complained about anywhere on the internet. And THOSE are my most effective units. Admittedly, list-building and theory-crafting are one of the most enjoyable aspects of the hobby for me, so it's a hard pill for me to swallow to consider specifically TRYING to make my lists weaker. It's counter-intuitive, and runs contrary to who I am as a person. I think I'd have better luck trying to run whatever was considered the "weakest" army, and doing my best to make it effective.

But I still feel like it's going to be an uphill battle, even if I do that. I think I could probably win with orks, or whatever I put my mind to, which I think will just enforce the feelings that already exist while costing me whatever I spent to put together the new army. Sure, I think I'd get more people who'd give me a go with what they percieve as a weaker faction, but as soon as a few of the "power players" have lost some games, it'll be back to same old, same old.

Out of curiousity, what would you consider the weakest codex, currently?

I would say that the Codex I fear least when its across from me, if there even really is such a distinction would be Militarum Tempestus. That mans dick, when it comes down to it, beause a good general can wield it like a hammer, just like most codex's. But it happens to REQUIRE a good general to play it and THAT'S telling. I don't think most codex's need quite the same level of frostiness this codex does.

Harlquins might be hard o nthe heels of that one.

As for the rest: whether you THINK it will help or not, do it anyways. Because regardless, it's not going to HURT and can only help. Who you are as a person got you where you are. Now you hve to embrace change.

Or not.

So people are now discusssing freakshow. In the current meta  units that attack LD can be very very good. So do we need DE to do it?

CAD Eldar: 779

Farseer Skyrunner:
3x 3 Windrider Jetbikes: Scatterlasers:
3 Windrider Jetbikes: (just extra ObSec for maelstorm)
2x Hemlock Wraithfighters:

Detachment Harlequin Masque: 1070

3x Death Jesters:
Shadowseer: Lvl2: Mask of Secrets:
3x 5 Troupe: 3 Caress: 2 Embrace: Haywire Grenade: Neuro Disruptor: Starweaver:
2x Starweaver:
Voidreaver: Prismatic Cannon

Now you make one of your troupe masters and in maelstrom just try for the +2/-2 random game length. This alone can be game breaking. You have Windriders for ObSec. What are we doing here? Well, if you really want to attack LD the Death Jesters ‘Death id Not Enough’ is darn capable. A lot of units will be taking that -2 LD morale test as Jesters will get some casualties. And the Jesters fit into the Skyweavers ( capacity 6). When the Hemlocks come we stack their -2 LD 12” bubble with the Jesters and units will be running off the edges of the table. Finally we have a Lvl 2 Mask of Secrets psyker. This guy will do buffs and also reduce LD. Remember you get to pick the direction the effected units flee if they take Jester casualties. The Masque detachment does have ‘Rising Crescendo’ - run and charge. But really we will charge only after we weaken squads. Those that do not run off the table we can finish off. Did I mention this list has a slew of S6 shots - 80+ a turn.

Now we have a lot warp charge in this list ... we can definitely use the shadowseers phantamancy powers from the harlie book. Many combo with Mask of Secrets. Mirror of Minds might well be devastating. The we have hemlocks with psychic shriek and a farseer for invisibility/fortune. Need I say more.

So as much as I like the freakshow - this list will do a lot of the same. It has two CADs only, no LoWs and ObSec.

Agreed. I've done a lot of list-building with LD shenanigans in mind recently, and I've tried using all 3: Eldar, DE, and Harleys...and I keep coming back to the same conclusion: It's just not points efficient. Eldar and Harleys together do it better than all 3, or any other combination that includes DE.

Man....I really hope that old rumor about a second DE supplement for wyches is really a thing, and they come out with a Covens supplement soon. I feel like DE got sh@# on with the latest batch of releases.

Space marines can field multiples of these now.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/D/Deimos_Vindicator_Laser_Destroyer.pdf

Insane. Three of them put out 9 ordnance blasts AP1 S9 --- for 390 points. They have 9 HP between them. They can move and fire if needed (you lose some shots).

This is why they limit FW at many major events.

egorey wrote:

Space marines can field multiples of these now.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/D/Deimos_Vindicator_Laser_Destroyer.pdf

Insane. Three of them put out 9 ordnance blasts AP1 S9 --- for 390 points. They have 9 HP between them. They can move and fire if needed (you lose some shots).

This is why they limit FW at many major events.

When you say they can field multiples, do you mean in squadrons or just by using all your Heavy Support options?

Also, they're not blasts.

At best each tank fire 3 lascannon shots (they are ordonnance). Each tank takes a HS slot. It's good but it's nothing broken. There's much better options for your HS slots.

Sry, yes Count. I stand corrected. they are shots not blasts. But at BS4 you will be penning vehicles quite comfortably. It even has a 50/50 chance against flyers. It is very good. And they will be firing three shots turn two onwards and really can start turn one with the range. No - you would be using all your HS slots but if you are using two CADs it does not matter really and who uses just one CAD and no formations these days?

I like the flexibility of going after both vehicles and flyers. At the very least they will make flyers jink. And FMCs are also targets with AP1. They are not 'broken'. They are just very strong at what they do. I don't even consider WKs or the new IK codex 'broken'. There are always counters to everything.

suh scary.

And back to Skitarii. I've been asked how one could break them.

Skitarii Maniple Detachment: 1325
1x 10 Skitarii Vanguard: Omnispex, 3 Plasma Culiver (Warlord)  
5x 10 Skitarii Vanguard: Omnispex, 3 Arc Rifles
2x 1 Sydonian Dragoon:
2x 1 Ironstrider Ballisterii: Cognis- Autocannon
1x 2 Vengeance Batteries with Quad Icarus Array

Flesh Tearer Detachment: 525
1x Sanguinary Priest : Auspex
2x 5 Tactical Marines with Combi-Melta, Meltagun, Drop Pod
6x Drop Pod

Okay. Things to note. In a skitarii maniple until FaQed those vengeance batteries are scoring and there is debate as to whether they can can scout. Yep - buildings can score.

So of course, this is an alpha strike list. You have eight pods  - four will arrive first turn. You will not null deploy the whole list, of course. The batteries and ballisterii and dragoons will start on the table. Between radium, arc rifles, plasma cognis-autocannons and melta - well you can pretty much take out anything turn one. Also you have omnispex and auspex to help.

Now I debate on the ballisterii. Much as I like these guys I'm thinking that 2 Dragoons with phosphor serpenta might be better in this list. It does need a few counter charging units methinks. That is one possible tweak. The other is using an Onager Dunecrawler with Icarus array as my main AA. This would look like this:

1x 10 Skitarii Vanguard: Omnispex, 3 Plasma Caliver: Alpha Warlord: Arc Maul, Refractor Field
5x 10 Skitarii Vanguard: Omnispex, 3 Arc Rifles
1x 3 Sydonian Dragoon: 2 Phosphor Serpenta
1x Ironstrider Ballistarius: Cognis Autocannon
1x Onager Dunecrawler: Icarus Array

AI - check
AT - check
AA - check
CC - check
Deployment shenanigans - check

The tournament report that used a very similar list looked rad

colinsherlow wrote:

The tournament report that used a very similar list looked rad

That is a pun yes? the list has 42 rad rifles Assault 3 autowound twice on 6s. Goodbye MCs, teq. meq
Arc rifles handle vehicles (haywire, S6 if needed). And you get universal scout and crusader on ALL units. Warlord squad rerolls 1s (plasma). Dragoons are dunestrider (extra D3 move, run or charge etc.). So are Balisterii who get a twin linked gun and precision shot, lol. They fire at BS2 against flyers too.

Pun indeed!

Love that list. I think you will be seeing similar builds with it. Arc rifles and rad weapons in pods for the win.

The pods make them silly good

What is particularly nice about the skitarii is that it follows all the imposed restrictions that many tournaments implement - two CADs only, no Gargs or super-heavies, no FW. It also takes advantage of no cover ( omnispex x 6, auspex X 1, onager with ignore cover gun). Last, with the addition of pods you are certainly putting pressure on your opponents deployment options and the placement of objectives.

I think I favor the list without the vengeance batteries - Onager is so nice , comes with a built in save, can be hidden behind dragoons and balasterii. All these models can scout as well ... It is frightening how much accurate dakka these guys can lay out with doctrina imperatives for a couple of turns and then switch to being great in cc.

Yes, J the list is silly good. In your hands I would shudder to think of what you could do.

Win Adepticon?

Hehehe.

But seriously, win Adepticon.

So Ill borrow this army and go to Adepticon. How fast can you have it painted and ready for me?

You have almost one year to paint those. (And probably three different mechanicum killers released before event and one or two new editions of 40k )

So if I had the army ready in a year you will take it to adepticon? Hmm. I would want credit. of course. And your tweaked list.