Idea Fixing Wyches

Rokuro wrote:

And that's not only a very small chance to glance a Land Raider, but also enough to get a "Total Collapse" result on AV13 buildings.

Wait, admittedly, it's been awhile since I've looked at the rules for this, but don't you have to have AP1 or AP2 to get those kinds of results for buildings? And doesn't it say somewhere that the rending AP doesn't count for the vehicle/building damage chart?

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Rokuro wrote:

And that's not only a very small chance to glance a Land Raider, but also enough to get a "Total Collapse" result on AV13 buildings.

Wait, admittedly, it's been awhile since I've looked at the rules for this, but don't you have to have AP1 or AP2 to get those kinds of results for buildings? And doesn't it say somewhere that the rending AP doesn't count for the vehicle/building damage chart?

Not sure about Stronghold Assault, but the main rule book says Total Collapse is a 6 on the building damage table. Detonation is 7+.
It also says that attacking a building works the same as attacking a vehicle, unless the specific building's rules say otherwise, and even points out that rules like Haywire that affect vehicles also work against buildings.

Rokuro wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

That's not a strength 10 hit. A strength 10 hit can score 16 on penetration without modifiers, and never scores less than 11.

A PENETRATION TOTAL of 10 represents the weakest possible hit that can even possibly dent a building or vehicle. I'd say that's possible with a knife or baseball bat. Don't agree? You've obviously never had an italian girlfriend.

Yeah, I should have worded that better. But the point is: A Wych landing a successful rending hit would penetrate between 10 and 14 (with Furious Charge and Grave Lotus: 3 +1 +1 +6 +D3). And that's not only a very small chance to glance a Land Raider, but also enough to get a "Total Collapse" result on AV13 buildings.

As 40k is an abstract game (melee combat against bikes, cover does not stack with armor, a landraider is as hard to hit as a Gaunt,....) I have no issues with that. You still can imagine that they did bring small mines or something highly corrosive,...
There are other units which can do the same and nobody bats an eye.

In other news, Venoms can poison quad-cannons to death.

It's that the crystals are Poisoned and electrostatic to mess with technology.

CptMetal wrote:

It's that the crystals are Poisoned and electrostatic to mess with technology.

So why don't they work vehicles?

Because vehicles are armoured

CptMetal wrote:

Because vehicles are armoured

You expect me to believe that every vehicle has armour that is superior to that of the quad-gun?

All those exposed turrets and guns - every single one of them has better armour than the quad gun? Even the ones with no armour to speak of, which are even crewed by regular dudes standing right in the open?  

Moreover, if the quad gun is unarmoured, why does it have the same defensive stats as the heavily-armoured Talos?

I'd guess because it's a game?

CptMetal wrote:

I'd guess because it's a game?

I wasn't aware that all games were required by law to be really inconsistent and illogical with their abstraction and mechanics.


Anyway, drifting back to the topic at hand, what about Bloodbrides? if we give Wytches rending, pseudo-rending or some other fix, is it enough to leave Bloodbrides with just an extra attack and the ability to take more special weapons?

Also, something else that bugs me a bit is that wyches and bloodbrides have so little WS, compared to a Succubus and Lelith. I guess the same applies to an Archon to some degree - but at least in his case the Incubi could be seen as intermediates (Warriors/Trueborn WS4, Incubi WS5, Klaivex WS6, Archon WS7). Succubi have even higher WS... yet not even the elite wych units have a WS above 4.

Just seems really odd to me.

I think they dont need rending\bladestorm\venom

Maybe something like banshee mask to prevent Overwathc?
Like Darting strike rule - wyches can charge after they come to play from reserve (not by deep strike) and overwatch doesnt work against them (or sucsess rolls to hit must be rerolled, or make their dodge work in charge sub-phase)
So many things come to mind... Maybe think about their special weapons

And i agree with Shredder about Bloodbrides. They surely need some buff in front of regular wyches.

After playing a couple games with my new mono-slaanesh army, I have to say rending as an army wide is pretty insane.  The thing is though, daemons basically break reality by even existing, and it makes some sense (?) for them to stick a hand through a tank or a concrete wall.

Wyches don't have a justification for that... Monofilament would make a lot more sense fluff wise.  It'd also have roughly the same effect as rending against marines and guardsman, while being more effective vs tau, orks, and necrons.  Eldar, slaanesh marines/demons, would pretty much laugh it off though (except you'd put it on the wych knife, and she could just attack with her pistol instead).  But it will still have no effect on buildings/vehicles.

In general though I'd like to see wyches fall more in line with death cult assassins.  Power weapons are probably ruled out without a price increase (and ap3 weapons are a bit much on troops), but the 5 WS and 5++ dodge aren't out of line for the cost.  Daemonettes have both of those as well as rending and cost 9 points (but have no grenades, no transports, and their own set of issues).

stilgar27 wrote:

After playing a couple games with my new mono-slaanesh army, I have to say rending as an army wide is pretty insane.

In what way, exactly?

I'm just curious as to what it lets you do that's so powerfuk, if you see what I mean?

Any chance you could give some examples?

stilgar27 wrote:

Wyches don't have a justification for that...

Are we sure? I thought they used a lot of strange weapons/technology? The fluff mentions that they can kill opponents many times their size with tiny knives, but it also hints at a plethora of other, stranger/deadlier weapons.

stilgar27 wrote:

Monofilament would make a lot more sense fluff wise.  It'd also have roughly the same effect as rending against marines and guardsman, while being more effective vs tau, orks, and necrons.  Eldar, slaanesh marines/demons, would pretty much laugh it off though (except you'd put it on the wych knife, and she could just attack with her pistol instead).  But it will still have no effect on buildings/vehicles.

The problem is, they're still just S3. Even wounding against initiative, they just don't seem impressive. Also, I'm not sure if it's a good sign when we're already talking about giving the wytches a way to avoid using the special rule that will supposedly make them worthwhile. And, as you say, this still leaves them useless against any and all vehicles.

I don't know, it still seems like 'too much glass, not enough cannon' to me.

stilgar27 wrote:

In general though I'd like to see wyches fall more in line with death cult assassins.  Power weapons are probably ruled out without a price increase (and ap3 weapons are a bit much on troops),

You say AP3 weapons are a bit much on troops, but I have to disagree here. This is the exact reason no one takes basic power swords on our sergeants or such - S3 AP3 is pitiful (and invariably overcosted). Against marines (i.e. their optimal targets), each wych is doing 0.5 wounds on the charge. Which, you'll note, is exactly half of what a charging Incubi (who costs twice as much) can expect.

Compare that to a Death Cult assassin - who kill 1.3 marines on the charge (more than Incubi), but cost just 5pts more than wyches.

All that said, even if wyches got AP3, I doubt I'd use them anyway. I find AP3 far too narrow these days - especially when it lacks the strength or special rules to be useful against other targets.

Just give them rending and the possibility for Haywire Grenades. That way I could use them against big stuff too.

CptMetal wrote:

Just give them rending and the possibility for Haywire Grenades. That way I could use them against big stuff too.

What about bloodbrides?

More special weapons and more attacks. Shouldn't that be enough with rending?

CptMetal wrote:

More special weapons and more attacks. Shouldn't that be enough with rending?

WS5 perhaps?

In terms of whether it will be enough, I've honestly no idea.

I mean, do you think this will put Bloodbrides and Wyches on par with stuff like the Necron Decurion or the double-Gladius?

I think giving them rending would be enough by itself for basic wyches. For bloodbrides, give them access to more special weapons, and the ability for every member of the squad to have haywire grenades.

I think both of those changes are justified without a points increase. Just to put it in perspective, Eldar Banshees cost 3 points more and have the same statline with +1Ld, power swords, immunity to overwatch, 4+ armour, and +3" run/charge range.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

I think giving them rending would be enough by itself for basic wyches. For bloodbrides, give them access to more special weapons, and the ability for every member of the squad to have haywire grenades.

Out of interest, what special weapons are we talking about here?

I'd like agoniser as special weapons.

I was thinking about special weapons for wyches. How about something like that:

Shardnet and impaler
Str - user, AP - 5, Ritual pair*, Trapnet, specialist weapon
Trapnet - enemy models in base contact with model with shardnet or impaler reduse their WS and Initiative by 2.

Hydra gaunlets
Str - user, AP-5, Ritual pair, Cristaline shards, spec weapon
Cristalline shards - model with Hydra gaunlet get D3 bonus attack every round of combat

Razorflail
Str - user, AP-5, Ritual pair, blade-whip, spec weapon
Blade-whip - enemy models must reroll sucsessefull save rolls from wounds caused by razorflails

Ritual pair is the same as now - re-roll of 1 for to hit and to wound.
I think it possible to take shardnet and razorflail for example (5pts each). And choose wych (wordplay you would use. Or pay 10pts for ritual pair.

What do you guts think?

I think they should just return the special weapons to their prior edition's effects, while giving wyches themselves rending.

I always thought the effects of wych weapons were cool last edition.

There are two problems with Wyches at the moment; they die like chumps to overwatch, and they hit like chumps once they're in melee.

Fix the overwatch problem easily:
- Dodge applies for the whole Assault phase
- Assault grenades suppress overwatch for models within 8" (40k system change)

Fixing Wyches mediocre melee performance is slightly harder, since finesse combat units are poorly supported by the existing rules (as we, of all players, are well aware!). I'm going to crib off wardancers with this suggestion:

Deadly Grace
(Fluff about dancing around clumsily lumbering opponents and cutting them up)
Against any opponent with a lower Initiative, a unit of Wyches may at the start of the Fight subphase choose one of these benefits.

1. Reroll wound rolls.
2. Reroll failed Dodge saves.
3. Force opponent to reroll successful armour saves.

If the Wyches' Initiative is more than double their opponents', select two benefits from the above instead.

Creeping Darkness wrote:

There are two problems with Wyches at the moment; they die like chumps to overwatch, and they hit like chumps once they're in melee.

Fix the overwatch problem easily:
- Dodge applies for the whole Assault phase
- Assault grenades suppress overwatch for models within 8" (40k system change)

Fixing Wyches mediocre melee performance is slightly harder, since finesse combat units are poorly supported by the existing rules (as we, of all players, are well aware!). I'm going to crib off wardancers with this suggestion:

Deadly Grace
(Fluff about dancing around clumsily lumbering opponents and cutting them up)
Against any opponent with a lower Initiative, a unit of Wyches may at the start of the Fight subphase choose one of these benefits.

1. Reroll wound rolls.
2. Reroll failed Dodge saves.
3. Force opponent to reroll successful armour saves.

If the Wyches' Initiative is more than double their opponents', select two benefits from the above instead.

I like this idea.

Certainly feels better than just saying "gimme rending lel" like a lot of suggestions go.

Rending belongs to units quite like Wyches already - Harlies and Daemonettes - they have comparable toughness, saves, high initiatives with each other and with Wyches.

It would be nice to give Wyches something unique, and give their Archon some choices to make for each combat step, representing what style of dirty fighting their lasses should go for.

Creeping Darkness wrote:

There are two problems with Wyches at the moment; they die like chumps to overwatch, and they hit like chumps once they're in melee.

Fix the overwatch problem easily:
- Dodge applies for the whole Assault phase
- Assault grenades suppress overwatch for models within 8" (40k system change)


Deadly Grace
(Fluff about dancing around clumsily lumbering opponents and cutting them up)
Against any opponent with a lower Initiative, a unit of Wyches may at the start of the Fight subphase choose one of these benefits.

1. Reroll wound rolls.
2. Reroll failed Dodge saves.
3. Force opponent to reroll successful armour saves.

Cool idea about grenades. And pretty logical. How can u overwathc, when u hit by a assault grenade? They was createdd to prevent supressive enemy fire when assaulting.
And jumping and rolling against their foe is pure wych-style combat. So it`s realy nice idea.