Idea Fixing Wyches

As much as I love the overwatch / dodge idea and the deadly grace, as much do I think the assault grenade idea is terrible. Sure, witches could use it but it would not only fix them but change too much.

I have to agree with the captain. The change to grenades would be too far-reaching to even consider the ramifications in this thread.

While I like the deadly grace idea and the dodge applying during overwatch, I still think our most realistic expectation could be to get rending and have dodge apply at a reduced rate outside of CC. Similar to Lelith's 3++ in CC, 4++ out, wyches could have their 4++ in CC, and 5++ outside.

I think those 2 changes alone would give wyches a place again. They don't HAVE to be incredible, but this would make them fluffy and viable.

And of course, we'd want to give bloodbrides access to more special weapons and haywire grenades on the entire squad.

A unit of 10 wyches with champion with agoniser and 3 special weapons if we do a fantasy battle against 9 man unit of assault marines (no jumppack) with sergeant with powerfist there is 1 point between the two units.

No counting drug:
If the wyches assault they have 3 attacks each a total of 27 attacks plus the 4 from the hekatrix. About 16 attacks will hit 2 with ap 3 and poison (the special weapons can change this number a little). If we say they have furious charge half will wound 7 plus the 2 poison attacks. That is about 3-4 dead marines.

If assaulted they have 21 attacks total and will kill about 2-3 marines.

The problem is that 8 marines will kill about and a sergeant will kill 3-4 if assaulted and 5-7 if assaulting and overwatch and normal shooting kills wyches very fast.

Rendering will increase the number of dead marines with 1 maybe two... Not a big change in the outcome...

Poison would increase the number from 8 wounds to 12 wounds after saves about 4 dead marines plus two from the hekatrix on assaults. Rendering would also increase a bit from the poison attacks on assaults.

Wyches could be a great unit if wych weapons decreased enemies chances to hit or ws.

But poison weapons would make Wracks superfluous. Rending would make them nice terminator or big bug hunters.

CptMetal wrote:

But poison weapons would make Wracks superfluous. Rending would make them nice terminator or big bug hunters.

This. In the fluff, wyches are pitted against the big nasties of worlds throughout the known. They should have a chance to damage them. Rending serves that purpose. And giving them a weaker version of Lelith's dodge makes sense, I think. I'd be happy if they had a 4++ in CC, and a 5++ vs. shooting.

In addition to adding pseudo-Rending (minus the bonus against vehicles/building) and changing the Dodge rule to work at 4++ during the Assault phase and at 6++ against shooting, here's a curveball suggestion: remove the restriction against ATSKNF models on Phantasm Grenades and Torment Grenades, and modify the Soulfright special rule to cause a Pinning test at the end of the shooting phase, with a -1 Ld modifier to the test for each hit by such a weapon in the same turn.

At present, there's virtually no reason to take Phantasm Grenade Launchers or Torment Grenade Launchers unless you know you're going up against a small range of armies (Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus, Sisters of Battle, possibly Orks, possibly Astra Militarum, and arguably Necrons).  They're currently expensive and unreliable.  With these changes, they're suddenly much more viable.  An upgraded Raider with a Wych squad (including a Hekatrix with PGL) can potentially inflict a few wounds and avoid Overwatch fire unless the target passes a test at -2 Ld - which is hardly overpowered for 40 points for the Hekatrix and the two weapons. If anything, it's probably over-costed.

Also, letting Bloodbrides take power weapons and agonisers instead of Wych Cult weapons might be a nice change.

Haagrum wrote:

In addition to adding pseudo-Rending (minus the bonus against vehicles/building) and changing the Dodge rule to work at 4++ during the Assault phase and at 6++ against shooting, here's a curveball suggestion: remove the restriction against ATSKNF models on Phantasm Grenades and Torment Grenades, and modify the Soulfright special rule to cause a Pinning test at the end of the shooting phase, with a -1 Ld modifier to the test for each hit by such a weapon in the same turn.

At present, there's virtually no reason to take Phantasm Grenade Launchers or Torment Grenade Launchers unless you know you're going up against a small range of armies (Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus, Sisters of Battle, possibly Orks, possibly Astra Militarum, and arguably Necrons).  They're currently expensive and unreliable.  With these changes, they're suddenly much more viable.  An upgraded Raider with a Wych squad (including a Hekatrix with PGL) can potentially inflict a few wounds and avoid Overwatch fire unless the target passes a test at -2 Ld - which is hardly overpowered for 40 points for the Hekatrix and the two weapons.  If anything, it's probably over-costed.

Agreed about removing the 'can't wound ATSKNF models' restriction from Soulfright weapons. I'm not sure about the pinning idea though. I'd rather just have the Ld test be immediate (you know, like absolutely every other weapon), so that units can be affected by multiple Soulfright weapons in the same turn.

Haagrum wrote:

Also, letting Bloodbrides take power weapons and agonisers instead of Wych Cult weapons might be a nice change.

I think you'd need to give those weapons a significant discount for them to be worth it. Power Weapons and Agonisers are laughably overcosted on a WS7 Archon with 3 wounds and 5 attacks, let alone on a 1-wound Bloodbride with WS4 and 3 attacks.

Many DE weapons are overcoasted.
Deal with it

Devilogical wrote:

Many DE weapons are overcoasted.
Deal with it

If by 'deal with it' you mean 'play an army with a codex that wasn't written by a lobotomised-hamster', I'm way ahead of you.

The Shredder wrote:

Devilogical wrote:

Many DE weapons are overcoasted.
Deal with it

If by 'deal with it' you mean 'play an army with a codex that wasn't written by a lobotomised-hamster', I'm way ahead of you.

Yeah, remember, the closest eldar equivalent to wyches are banshees, who charge 2d6+3 inches, have power weapons, are immune to overwatch, and have 4+ armour that works vs shooting AND in melee for 3 points more per model. I'd pay the 3 points for equivalent wyches.



The problem is multiple people writing DE codices over time. The next guy in line quite possibly has no idea who the dark eldar are as a people, and so he's winging it based on some fluff he skimmed through briefly. He may not have the same concept in his mind of who the dark eldar are as the guy before him. To one guy, the dark eldar are an evil, twisted society of space elves that wallow in the glory of their evil ways. To the next, they're the true remnants of the original eldar race, a pitiful shadow of the once-great society that spawned them.

Either way, from a game balance perspective, they SHOULD be a fast, highly skilled army with amazing technology. They're not tough, their armor is non existent, they can't have psykers, they SHOULD be able to kill like no other, and have like WS5 across the board. They've got thousands of years to perfect their technique, but instead, harlequins get that honor. Performers. Bards. They're the best WS as a group in the game, yet they spend the majority of their time performing. The ones who's entire lives are consumed warring and raiding? Nah, they normal. /end rant

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

The ones who's entire lives are consumed warring and raiding? Nah, they normal. /end rant

On that note, we should have Hatred as an army wide special rule since DE view everything as beneath them; Preferred Enemy (Daemons of Slaanesh and Necrons) due to the ancient enmity, all our weapons should have Master-Crafted as any that don't meet the ridiculously high standards are scrapped. All our vehicles should have Outflank and Strafing Run, with Ravagers having Tank Hunter. And why hasn't the whole anti-psyker mentality resulted in us having Adamantium Will?

Based on the fluff, you'd think Wyches would have Precision Strikes and Monster Hunter (maybe give one, or both, to Bloodbrides to distinguish them from regular Wyches). Rending may or may not be too much, but they should at least have Shred. And Move Through Cover.

What always makes me sad about these conversations is that each one of us has obviously put in more thought and effort into this than GW ever will.

This entire army is an afterthought and always has been.  I say it all the time (too often) but we went 12 years without a new codex.  12 years - do you need more evidence that they don't even care if you play this army or not?

And this is why I've moved on to corsairs.  Forgeworld seems much less interested in selling kits, and much more interested in making balanced, up-to-date lists.

Erebus wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

The ones who's entire lives are consumed warring and raiding? Nah, they normal. /end rant

On that note, we should have Hatred as an army wide special rule since DE view everything as beneath them; Preferred Enemy (Daemons of Slaanesh and Necrons) due to the ancient enmity, all our weapons should have Master-Crafted as any that don't meet the ridiculously high standards are scrapped. All our vehicles should have Outflank and Strafing Run, with Ravagers having Tank Hunter. And why hasn't the whole anti-psyker mentality resulted in us having Adamantium Will?

Based on the fluff, you'd think Wyches would have Precision Strikes and Monster Hunter (maybe give one, or both, to Bloodbrides to distinguish them from regular Wyches). Rending may or may not be too much, but they should at least have Shred. And Move Through Cover.

I know exactly what you mean. The lack of Master Crafted stuff in our army is something I find particularly irritating.

But, it also made me think of WHFB (before GW obliterated it). In particular, the Dark Elves - which are basically the fantasy equivalent of Dark Eldar. Anyway, what comes to mind is the number of special rules they have as standard. Every model has Always Strikes First - meaning they strike first in combat against everything and, perhaps more importantly, reroll failed to-hit rolls against anything with equal or lower initiative. i.e. their high initiative actually counts for something. I believe every Dark ELf model also rerolls to-wound rolls of 1 in combat, and has Hatred (High Elves).

And, those are the army-wide rules. I haven't even gotten into the unit-specific rules yet. As an example, the Sisters of Slaughter (their Wych equivalents) have Dance of Death and The Trial of Blades. Dance of Death gives them a 4++ in combat, but also prevents the enemy from making parry saves and removing any CR bonus for extra ranks. The Trial of Blades gives them +1 to-hit and +1 to-wound if at least one enemy model in base-contact has higher WS or Strength. And, as above, this is in addition to rerolling failed to-hit rolls against any unit with I6 or less and also rerolling to-wound rolls of 1. Oh, and did I mention that they're WS6?

stilgar27 wrote:

What always makes me sad about these conversations is that each one of us has obviously put in more thought and effort into this than GW ever will.

This entire army is an afterthought and always has been.  I say it all the time (too often) but we went 12 years without a codex.  12 years - do you need more evidence that they don't even care if you play this army or not?

What's really sad is that (prior to AoS) they spent plenty of time and effort on Dark Elves. Yet, it seems no one was willing to spare any effort for their 40k equivalents.

stilgar27 wrote:

And this is why I've moved on to corsairs.

Likewise.

The Shredder wrote:

What's really sad is that (prior to AoS) they spent plenty of time and effort on Dark Elves. Yet, it seems no one was willing to spare any effort for their 40k equivalents.

I've never understood the discrepancy between the love shown for Dark Elves and the complete disregard toward Dark Eldar. They're effectively the same race, but treated completely oppositely - by both GW and the playerbase (though the latter is probably due to the former).

@stilgar27 wrote:

And this is why I've moved on to corsairs.

@The Shredder

Likewise.


I have just not played in about a year. I will no longer support a game that is as horribly balanced as 40K. However much I like the Dark Eldar, it is just no longer fun to play the game.

I just have an eldar and tau army now. I know, shameful considering the treatment we as customers have gotten.

Tau should get awfully slaughtered by the archangel bomb and freak show army lists.
Just my two cents.

CptMetal wrote:

Tau should get awfully slaughtered by the archangel bomb and freak show army lists.

Don't freakshow lists also include Harlequins and Eldar?

Unfortunately the 7ed codex was released during a consolidatory phase in GW policy, rather than an expansionary one. Necrons was the beginning of the current mindset, hopefully it lasts long enough to get back to us... or at least they can throw us a bone with a role in a campaign supplement.

I don't have enough of the new Dexes to know - can anyone tell me if say, the Space Marine dex is as strictly limited to what is available in the kit as the Dark Eldar dex is?

I still think removing some of those arbitrary limitations would be enough to make our book fun again. Admittedly Wyches need more though

What do you mean "limited to what is available in the kit"?

Kabalite Warriors can take a splinter cannon and a dark lance (available in the Kabalite Warrior box as an option on the sprue), but cannot take heat lances or haywire blasters (not present in the sprues in the Kabalite Warrior box). Similarly, a Scourge Solarite has the option to take a venom blade (available in the Scourge box), but a Wych Succubus does not (no venom blade in the Wych box).

That's what I mean by limited to what is available in the [miniatures'] kit, my apologies if that was unclear. I'm curious to see whether this philosophy is still present in newer Codicies, because I believe this to be one of the major things holding us back - Wyches don't get access to venom blades now because six years ago Jes thought it would be cooler to put blast pistols there instead.

We all know that the dark eldar codex just hit the balanced 7 edition wave and we now in the "every codex" is over the top wave" (deep strike assault, tons of free stuff, the power of three of the same thing etc...) . Yes dark eldar leak power to run with the new codex, so do orks, tyrandis, csm and other codexs

Creeping Darkness wrote:

I don't have enough of the new Dexes to know - can anyone tell me if say, the Space Marine dex is as strictly limited to what is available in the kit as the Dark Eldar dex is?

Having only built space marine scouts and land speeder storms since the new dex, I can still say that this is not an issue for space marines.

The scout kit did come with an impressive choice of weapons, but did not contain any power or combi weapons options for the sergeant.  Also each of the 2 variations of the scout kit (sniper and scout) only came with one of the two heavy weapon choices.  The land speeder storm has plenty of weapon options, like assault cannons, which are also not in the kit.

As for the 7th edition tactical marines - I've seen the new modular combi-weapon which comes in that kit; but I'm going to doubt each kit comes with all 6 heavy weapon choices, all 5 power weapon choices, and all 4 special weapon choices (although this one is the most likely).

If it makes you feel any better though?  Scout bikers still have an entirely pointless shotgun, because it's in the kit and therefore in the list. My renegades do appreciate the oversight.

Creeping Darkness wrote:

That's what I mean by limited to what is available in the [miniatures'] kit, my apologies if that was unclear.

Oh, ok, I see what you mean. I'd say it could go either way. Our codex was closely following a lawsuit that was lost by GW against privateer press regarding copyright or IP infringement on models that GW never got around to making. GW lost that fight, and it seems like Orks, DE, and maybe Grey Knights were a showcase of their response to that loss.

They stripped the books of every unit and/or special character that they didn't have a current model for, no matter how core to the army they were(Vect). They also eliminated options that weren't in the model kits, such as the ability of several units to take a "power weapon" as opposed to simply the power swords that were included in the kits.

This was a move that I viewed as being fueled as much by childish spite as by a genuine concern to protect their IP. GW is the most ridiculous company when it comes to their IP. They try to claim and protect ideas they stole from other people. They try to protect things you CAN'T protect, because it's public domain. I wouldn't be surprised if their greatest company expense was their legal/anti-piracy department.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Creeping Darkness wrote:

That's what I mean by limited to what is available in the [miniatures'] kit, my apologies if that was unclear.

Oh, ok, I see what you mean. I'd say it could go either way. Our codex was closely following a lawsuit that was lost by GW against privateer press regarding copyright or IP infringement on models that GW never got around to making. GW lost that fight, and it seems like Orks, DE, and maybe Grey Knights were a showcase of their response to that loss.

They stripped the books of every unit and/or special character that they didn't have a current model for, no matter how core to the army they were(Vect). They also eliminated options that weren't in the model kits, such as the ability of several units to take a "power weapon" as opposed to simply the power swords that were included in the kits.

This was a move that I viewed as being fueled as much by childish spite as by a genuine concern to protect their IP. GW is the most ridiculous company when it comes to their IP. They try to claim and protect ideas they stole from other people. They try to protect things you CAN'T protect, because it's public domain. I wouldn't be surprised if their greatest company expense was their legal/anti-piracy department.

Minor point, but I believe it was Chapter House Studios and not PP. I believe the lawsuit was as a result of CHS making a model for the nid Drop Pod (whatever it was called).

But, I completely agree that GW was just being childish and spiteful - especially since they'd had 2 years to make that model, and just hadn't bothered.