]Fracture of Biel-Tan FAQ

There argument is that in BRB it says that when a character joins a unit they form 1 Unit. So they wouldn't get soulburst.

I agree with you but I have to play nice.

mrmagoo wrote:

There argument is that in BRB it says that when a character joins a unit they form 1 Unit.   So they wouldn't get soulburst.  

I agree with you but I have to play nice.  

But all of the rules specifically say they still count as a unit when they die, is my point. When they die, you still get a killpoint because, despite having previously formed a unit on the tabletop, they're still a unit in and of themselves when they die. And since dying is precisely what sets off soulburst, there is a clear precedent that in death, an independent character is a unit.

I'd make a ridiculous death star made up of a bunch of independent characters, then ask your friend to play a purge the alien game. Then claim that those ICs don't give killpoints when you kill them because they're all in a unit together, so the whole blob counts as 1 killpoint. Then see if your friend alters his stance.

It can't be both ways.

New Question: Is SfD IGUG?

IGUG?

I go you go like when we both have multiple infiltrates or scout moves.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

mrmagoo wrote:

There argument is that in BRB it says that when a character joins a unit they form 1 Unit.   So they wouldn't get soulburst.  

I agree with you but I have to play nice.   

But all of the rules specifically say they still count as a unit when they die, is my point. When they die, you still get a killpoint because, despite having previously formed a unit on the tabletop, they're still a unit in and of themselves when they die. And since dying is precisely what sets off soulburst, there is a clear precedent that in death, an independent character is a unit.

I'd make a ridiculous death star made up of a bunch of independent characters, then ask your friend to play a purge the alien game. Then claim that those ICs don't give killpoints when you kill them because they're all in a unit together, so the whole blob counts as 1 killpoint. Then see if your friend alters his stance.

It can't be both ways.

He did have a ridiculous amount of Chacters. Not a death start, each in individual units.
Visarch
Yvraine
The Yncarne
Asurmen
Jain Zar


Which is why when my Scat Bikes killed Asurmen in the shooting phase I tried to Soulburst the Solitare into HTH against the Dire Avengers near by.

Thanks for the pointers. I will try these next Tuesday.

I don't think it's IGOUGO. I think it's simultaneous, so the player whose turn it is decides who's SfD happens first.

Jimsolo wrote:

I don't think it's IGOUGO. I think it's simultaneous, so the player whose turn it is decides who's SfD happens first.

In the absence of anything indicating otherwise, I'd agree with this.

Okay but you're triggering 2 different special rules that both actuate around soulburst actions. SfD and  Warhost of Ynnead, the later of which will trigger for each detachment.. Are you seriously suggesting you get all 2-4 soul burst actions before I get any even though in order to do so you're triggering multiple distinct special rules simultaneously.

amorrowlyday wrote:

Okay but you're triggering 2 different special rules that both actuate around soulburst actions. SfD and  Warhost of Ynnead, the later of which will trigger for each detachment.. Are you seriously suggesting you get all 2-4 soul burst actions before I get any even though in order to do so you're triggering multiple distinct special rules simultaneously.

In my turn, I do. In your turn, you do. Those are the sequencing rules.

Questions:
Warhost of Ynnead allows two units to soul burst if there is more than 7"units in the warhost.
Could it be used to active 7 units to soul bursts at the same time (or potentially 12 with double Aeldari Blade host configuration) as follows:
With Aeldari blade host and United in Death rule could you potentially soul burst unit from inside FOC of Reborn Warhost detachment, choose other unit from Aeldari blade host and then activate the United in Death rule to soul burst to potentially soul burst 7 units per turn (6 from Aeldari blade host one from Reborn Warhost).

Are the formations taken inside Reborn Warhost Detachment counted toward required units (7 units) for the purposes of the Warhost of Ynnead special rule?

I don't see any reason why you could not use the Warhost of Ynnead rule to activate one unit each from two Aeldari Bladehosts who would then use their United in Death rule to take a Soulburst action with every unit in each formation. So yes, you could get 12 Soulburst actions from a single destroyed unit

Remember to bring Chocolate for the wounds of the spirit.

And yes, units taken inside formations that are part of the reborn warhost would count towards the unit count of a reborn warhost, unless something specifically says otherwise.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

And yes, units taken inside formations that are part of the reborn warhost would count towards the unit count of a reborn warhost, unless something specifically says otherwise.

Not sure about this one, though. If they count in the total unit number of the detachment, it also mean it count in the slot allocation of said detachment. Which I'm not sure.

Well, can you think of any time where the term 'unit' refers to multiple units in a formation (that aren't combined into one unit) as a single unit? I can't. A formation is composed of multiple units. You can take any number of formations in a reborn warhost, in addition to other choices. The rule calls for a count of 7 or more *units*, so I think that the only reasonable interpretation is to just add up all the units, including the ones in any formations.

The only reason that I can think of why this might be confusing to some is that in certain tournament rule sets, like ITC, players are limited as to the number of detachments/formations they can bring, but decurion-style detachments, though composed of other formations, still only count as one detachment. However, GW itself, to my knowledge, has never made a ruling on formations such as this.

dumpeal wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

And yes, units taken inside formations that are part of the reborn warhost would count towards the unit count of a reborn warhost, unless something specifically says otherwise.

Not sure about this one, though. If they count in the total unit number of the detachment, it also mean it count in the slot allocation of said detachment. Which I'm not sure.

That's not true at all. Units inside formations in a meta-detachment take up their own slots in formations, not effecting other slots of the meta-detachment, but they're expressly part of the detachment, as stated numerous times in numerous books detailing how meta-detachments work, including this one.

We've been playing using meta-detachments for over 2 years now. At least I have, I know some die-hard "ONLY DE" players may not have, but even those guys should have a pretty basic understanding of how these work, since every opponent they would have played in the past 2 years has probably used meta detachments against them.

The books clearly state that units in a formation that is part of a meta-detachment interact with all meta-detachment rules as if they were a part of the meta-detachment. This would include rules like, "If detachment includes X units, Y happens." So meta-detachment rules apply to all units included, while fomation rules only apply to models from that specific formation. It has been the same with every meta-detachment since they were first introduced.

A unit still counts towards the total number of units in its detachment even when it doesn't use up a slot. Units in Formations don't eat up the FOC slots but still count towards the 7 unit threshold.

I am realativly new to 7th so wana get a better understanding of detachments formations in regards to slots...as a Yannari CAD-reborn units count as both apart of the formation and detachment but if they are in the formation they dont take up their respetive slot aka Yvrain and visarch dont eat up both HQ choices but can they if you choose to? since we need 1 HQ and 2 troops can Yvrain and Visarch in the triumvirate count as the HQ and same idea can say a formation that has troops count as the troop requirments?

NO.

Sigh. STOP. You're misuse of specific terminology is what is confusing you. It is NOT a CAD it is a Reborn Warhost which is a detachment with the following slots:

HQ 1-2
Troops 2-6
Elites 0-3
Fast Attack 0-3
Heavy Support 0-3
Lord Of War 0-1
Formations 0+

If you take something as a distinct unit it must fill a vacant Force Organization Chart (FOC) Slot. In this regard The Visarch and Yvraine are both HQ's and the Yncarne is a LoW. If they are taken as a "The Triumvirate of Ynnead" in one of your limitless formation slots then they do not count against your FOC slots because you bought them as a formation, but they do retain their FOC roles for other rules (such as kill points) purposes. They will never count as filling those FOC slots in the Warhost if taken in a formation within that warhost. Furthermore units taken to fill the FOC portion of the chart will also never count as members of any formations.

thanks for clearing that up..I was kinda hoping to be able to use them still as HQ but guess I cant just means I gota tweek things to get it worked out correctly

You can. Just don't take the formation. Take them as your 2 Hq's and your LoW. They are legitimate FOC unit choices. Their formation isn't the only way to field them.

I might try that aswell but wana try them as the formation for their special rules and see if its worth taking them as a formation or just take them as their specific FOC

I get that. Fearless and +1 to their quasi-IWND is pretty sweet for something you'd do anyway. 1 Lhamaen Court of the Archon is going to be your cheapest HQ then.

A couple more problems I ran into with Soulburst that I don't see addressed/discussed:

1. If you kill a unit on overwatch can you soulburst away before resolving the charge if you kill something (ie. character)?

2. Does a stomp roll of a 6 trigger soulburst? It's removed as a casualty, does it still trigger. I'm not sure since the consensus is that models falling off the table don't count either and they are removed as a casualty as well.

3. To the point about being locked in combat until the end of the PHASE, the BRB is actually conflicted on this. It does say until the end of the PHASE under the LOCKED IN COMBAT section, however things get really sticky under consolidation.

Quote: "At the end of a COMBAT [note it says COMBAT not COMBAT PHASE], if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or Falling Back, or the end of combat Pile In was insufficient so that it is NO LONGER LOCKED IN COMBAT that unit may Consolidate..."

If Soulburst cannot trigger a unit that just wiped another one in combat because it is "locked in combat" then units may never consolidate either since it happens before the end of the fight sub-phase. It's the last action that you do in a combat, but further combats could still happen. I'm not arguing that it should trigger, I honestly don't know, but even RAW the issue is not as clear cut as some seem to think it is.