Offical GW FAQ for Ynarri

It still has uses. For example, I've mentioned HoW attacks various times and there is also the possibility of a high initiative character wiping out a unit to trigger soulburst and then charging into a new combat where the rest of his unit has yet to act.

Count Adhemar wrote:

It still has uses. For example, I've mentioned HoW attacks various times and there is also the possibility of a high initiative character wiping out a unit to trigger soulburst and then charging into a new combat where the rest of his unit has yet to act.

Or WK's with Stomps. Even IC's with I7-9's that can normally kill 3-4 themselves

You can probably even atack twice. Wipe a unit with incubi and then assault another unit in or through cover. Lack of grenades lets them act on I1.

I think I am fundamentally not understanding the assault thing. The way I'm reading this conversation makes it sound like every combat on the board is resolved simultaneously, counting down the Initiative steps in each combat but what actually happens is that combats are resolved one at a time. I'm going to write out my understanding and I have a question at the end. Please correct me if I've made an error. Sorry for the wall of text.

If you charge when it's not the Fight sub-phase, then you make a normal charge move and the enemy has the opportunity to Overwatch. The combat is resolved in the Fight sub-phase of that player's turn.

If you charge and it is the Fight sub-phase, then there are a variety of scenarios:

1) You charge a unit into an ongoing combat. This means you join at the current Initiative step. So if your Warriors join a combat after the Wyches fought at Initiative 6, then the Warriors fight as normal at Initiative 5 and get a bonus attack for charging. If your Warriors join after the Marines fought at Initiative 4, then the Warriors won't fight until next turn.

2) You charge into a resolved and ongoing combat. This means you join at the last Initiative step which was fought (the lowest Initiative of all attacking models). Unless you have an unwieldy weapon or attack a unit in cover, then you're probably not attacking(?) but if you were attacking then you get +1A for charging.

3) You charge into a unit which is not in combat. This doesn't seem to be explicitly mentioned in the FAQ. It seems like you should resolve the charge as normal (Overwatch), then start a new combat at Initiative 10 with a bonus attack for charging but no challenges can be issued. Because the combat starts at Initiative 10, does the charging unit get to use Hammer of Wrath? What else happens in the Fight sub-phase before Initiative 10 that a unit wouldn't get to do?

4) A unit which just won a combat charges a unit which is not in combat. Imagine your Incubi (I5) won a combat against Imperial Guardsmen (I3), they broke and were caught in a sweeping advance. Then you use the Incubi's Soulburst to charge a new unit of Guardsmen which are not in combat. The Guardsmen get to Overwatch and the Incubi get a bonus attack from charging. It seems from the conversation here that the new combat should begin at I3, which means that the Guardsmen would fight the Incubi would not. It makes more sense to me that the combat should start at the Initiative 10 step and that the Incubi would be allowed to fight two complete combats against two separate units.

5) You charge into a unit which just resolved and won a combat. By this I mean a unit killed your unit in combat, then you Soulburst off that and charge the unit. If the enemy unit is Marines (I4) and you charge with Incubi (I6), does either side fight? The Marines already fought and that combat left off at Initiative 4 and the Marines have since Consolidated D6". My interpretation is that it should be a new combat and that both sides should fight, starting with the Initiative 10 step (with the Marines fighting twice this phase). The Incubi would get a bonus attack for charging.

After considering these scenarios, my question is: If a Soulbursting unit charges a unit which is not in combat, does the new combat start at Initiative 10? No challenges may be issued but the charging unit gets +1A? Are there a couple scenarios where this might mean that units on either player's side might get to fight two complete combats twice?

One combat at a time

The unit that is making a soulburst charge does so at that units Initiative step with the added rule "If they had been in combat they now fight at the next initiative step"

So IF a unit did a normal charge and had HoW for I10 a Character at I7 and 4 dudes at I6

You 1st Combat hits HoW at I10, then lets say your Character killed the unit at I7 you now get a Soulburst action.  This can happen 2 different ways at this point you can charge a already ongoing combat or you can charge a new unengage unit.

Either way you do this, that unit that soulbursted will NOT fight combat with anything that is I7 or higher sense you already did I10-I7.  If you make a challenge and you are I7 but sense you already did I7, "your" charatcer can not attack, but his will.

It basically says the soulburst unit is now behind in in Initative steps, a soulburst unit can never attack at the same Int step.


There are multi way around this, HoW gives you I10 so MC's, Bikes, Embraces are good, Having 0 Assault grenades also is good b.c if you charge into terrain on your 2nd charge move you can now attack, and finally have 1 model with unwieldy with Ap isnt a bad thing but could be a good think.

Thank you, I reread the FAQ with your comment and now it makes a lot more sense. I'm pretty sure I'm on board now.

If I'm understanding your last sentence then, a unit of Incubi (who have no way of getting assault grenades) could resolve a combat at Initiative 5 then charge a unit in cover to fight again at Initiative 1.

Conversely, could an enemy unit who has two melee weapons could fight with a Power Sword at their normal Initiative step, then receive a Soulburst charge and fight again with Unwieldy weapons? Or do they not have the same restriction and can fight two full combats in the Fight sub-phase?

fuhrmaaj wrote:

Thank you, I reread the FAQ with your comment and now it makes a lot more sense. I'm pretty sure I'm on board now.

If I'm understanding your last sentence then, a unit of Incubi (who have no way of getting assault grenades) could resolve a combat at Initiative 5 then charge a unit in cover to fight again at Initiative 1.

Conversely, could an enemy unit who has two melee weapons could fight with a Power Sword at their normal Initiative step, then receive a Soulburst charge and fight again with Unwieldy weapons? Or do they not have the same restriction and can fight two full combats in the Fight sub-phase?

If they had 2 weapons like that i would say yes.
What eldar/DE does this tho? Out side of grenades and an unwieldy weapon.

A jetbike autarch with a laser lance and a power axe. That's actually a nasty combo.

Neat!

It'd also be a sneaky way to get one over on Mr I6 Roboute Tzaaniman. Soulburst into him on a lower initiative step so he doesn't get to attack either

amishprn86 wrote:

fuhrmaaj wrote:

If they had 2 weapons like that i would say yes.
What eldar/DE does this tho? Out side of grenades and an unwieldy weapon.

I was actually thinking about enemy units when I wrote that, but Karandras and Striking Scorpion Exarchs who have a Scorpion Claw and Scorpion Chainsword fit the bill. I'm blanking right now, but there used to be a variety of characters who could choose to attack normally or attack as if they had a power fist. Before the 7th edition book, the Emperor's Champion behaved like this but I can't think of anything like that right now. I'm more interested in the thought experiment so that I can understand how the ability is intended to work.

Thanks again for the response.

Oh, and fwiw the ITC has ruled that Swooping Hawks can use their Soulburst action to return to Reserve (that was discussed earlier).

fuhrmaaj wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

fuhrmaaj wrote:

If they had 2 weapons like that i would say yes.
What eldar/DE does this tho? Out side of grenades and an unwieldy weapon.

I was actually thinking about enemy units when I wrote that, but Karandras and Striking Scorpion Exarchs who have a Scorpion Claw and Scorpion Chainsword fit the bill. I'm blanking right now, but there used to be a variety of characters who could choose to attack normally or attack as if they had a power fist. Before the 7th edition book, the Emperor's Champion behaved like this but I can't think of anything like that right now. I'm more interested in the thought experiment so that I can understand how the ability is intended to work.

Thanks again for the response.

Oh, and fwiw the ITC has ruled that Swooping Hawks can use their Soulburst action to return to Reserve (that was discussed earlier).

WHA!!! Really? LOL hmm I need to get that info (my local are starting to play ITC sense we are starting to do more tournaments)

Sure.

ITC Homepage

ITC 40K Rules Addendum

The relevant text is on page 32.

Quote :

Swooping Hawks may Skyleap through the use of Strength from Death

EDIT: Just remember that the Swooping Hawks can't return to Reserve on the same turn that they left it. I think that you can Deep Strike, handle your turn. Then on the enemy turn, something dies and use the Soulburst to return to Reserves so you can Deep Strike again on your next turn.

fuhrmaaj wrote:

Sure.

ITC Homepage

ITC 40K Rules Addendum

The relevant text is on page 32.

Quote :

Swooping Hawks may Skyleap through the use of Strength from Death

EDIT: Just remember that the Swooping Hawks can't return to Reserve on the same turn that they left it. I think that you can Deep Strike, handle your turn. Then on the enemy turn, something dies and use the Soulburst to return to Reserves so you can Deep Strike again on your next turn.

Yeah I looked it up right away.

fuhrmaaj wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

fuhrmaaj wrote:

If they had 2 weapons like that i would say yes.
What eldar/DE does this tho? Out side of grenades and an unwieldy weapon.

I was actually thinking about enemy units when I wrote that, but Karandras and Striking Scorpion Exarchs who have a Scorpion Claw and Scorpion Chainsword fit the bill. I'm blanking right now, but there used to be a variety of characters who could choose to attack normally or attack as if they had a power fist. Before the 7th edition book, the Emperor's Champion behaved like this but I can't think of anything like that right now. I'm more interested in the thought experiment so that I can understand how the ability is intended to work.

Thanks again for the response.

Oh, and fwiw the ITC has ruled that Swooping Hawks can use their Soulburst action to return to Reserve (that was discussed earlier).

Unfortunately the Scorpion's Claw isn't Unwieldy so attacks at initiative. Pretty great, but not useful for Soulburst purposes.

Only one I can think of at the moment is Laser Lance/Power Sword Autarch, or having mixed units with an IC at I6 and others at I5.