8th DE - what's good?

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I am assuming the above comment is talking about 7th edition...otherwise why did he take away the biker from the front?  In 8th you choose the casualty so the only credible option when losing models to overwatch is to take them from the back...also he only needs to get within 1" in 8th edition so a 4" charge with the target 5" away means the charge goes off.

I'm guessing the enemy was still not used to the freedom of choosing casualties from anywhere in the squad.

Edit: Might as well...

DE 8th ed, what's good:
- Change to to-wound rolls and ap, incredibly beneficial for any light infantry, and discounting the vehicles, talos, chronos and grotesques, that's what DE are, light infantry.
- Change to characters. being able to keep characters separate from squad means any overkill on the squad by enemy fire does not automatically result in the character dying as well.
- Grotesques are still beefy monsters, now with good Ld, so we don't need to babysit them.
- Drugs aren't randomly assigned anymore, you can actually pick what you might need.
- Scourges now can reliably use heavy weapons as well
- more wych cult units are usable now, not just the reavers.

I don't mean to be negative in the positivity thread but the changes to wounding only helps us in most cases against strength/tough 5. Everything else is exactly the same.

Or a mistake in placement, where he put his special weapon in the back because he was used to it from 7th?

The Red King wrote:

I don't mean to be negative in the positivity thread but the changes to wounding only helps us in most cases against strength/tough 5. Everything else is exactly the same.

If I may join in, I feel you are partially correct. Yes, the changes help us most against t5 and below (unless you take the +1s drugs of course), but the changes also give us the ability to wound anything on a 6, regardless of their toughness, which is much better than not being able to scratch high toughness models.

For me personally I haven't had a lot of experience with Dark Eldar in 7th so I'm not sure how different things were previously. However I really like squads of Trueborn being able to take 4 blasters and being put in a Venom. I also really like the look of the Razorwing Jet fighter, it seems like a great anti infantry IMO.

The named HQs seem really solid and reasonably cheap points wise.

Whats good in 8th (not what got better) IMO after playing about 20 games.

Mandrakes
Reliable Mortal Wounds are good, this will make good for some people, but thats not what makes them good, -1 to hit 5++ DS and potential some mortal wounds, Mandrakes are strong pick, i wouldnt go over board with them tho.

All vehicles
All vehicles in all armies are good now and almost every army will take them.
But the Voidraven is IMO the top compare to all our vehicles.

Trueborn
You might see players only take these guys now over Kabals, Kabals are super cheap but Trueborns are extremely effective and can be built for any shooting Job, AI, AT, AC (Anti-cover), Long or even short range.

Beastpacks: Flocks
Extremely cheap board control and wound pool. With many armies having large movements making a large spot a dead zone or to waste many shots is HUGE. Taking a full strength unit of these guys might be common (like 40 gants for Nids, fills same rolls) and its less than 90pts.

Coven
They are all buffed especially with a character, T5 wracks with 2 wounds and a Electro whip can really be a strong unit now. Talos is just as strong, if you are playing coven Wracks, Grots and Talos will be you bulk along with vehicles.

The big thing is if you want to play DE now you mostly need to build a "main" theme and use others as support, like 2/3 of your army should be 1 of the 3 types, Kabal, Wych, Coven. Having a little of each to fill some holes is great! Incubi/Mandrakes/Fliers will fit in all 3 types as well.

Basically i mean if you want to play Wyches you need to take advantage of the Drug rules with Cheap Wych units, Reavers and a Succubus to get the most out of the bonus's, just like Coven you want the Talos, Cronos and Haemonculus or 2, or even 1 Haemi and Urien R.

Note* Incubi are very strong too, but take up an elite slots over troops, they IMO do a bit more damage than Wrack but also cost dbl the points, so if you want a more reliable CC unit i would pick them.

The MVP's top 3 MVP's of DE i woulds say
1) Trueborn
2) Vehicles
3) Coven/Wracks

If I would to make a extremely balanced TAC list that would bring what i felt are strong units with Dedicated rolls.

Haemi
Haemi
Trueborn +Raider, Dis can
Trueborn +Raider, Dis can
Trueborn +Raider, Dis can
Mandrakes
Beastmaster
Wracks +Venom
Wracks +Venom
Razorwing Flocks
Voidraven
Ravager Dis can x3
Ravager Dark L x3

Thank you for the write up @amishprn86.

I hadn't realised the potential of the Mandrakes until reading your post. I'm making a list with units that all have the -1 to hit. (Venoms, Razorwing, Shadowseer aura + Fog of Dreams) So the Mandrakes would be a good addition to this.

If you don't mind me asking, what makes the Voidraven the best vehicle?

Its just a little more costly than Ravagers and just does as much if not more damage, with -1 to hit, and you have the Void Bomb once a game that will kill 7 out of a 10man squad of SM even in cover.

2D3 shots that does D3 damage with D6 missiles (or D3 with -3ap over -1ap).

Think of it as a Flying Ravager for 20pts more.

What no scourges in your list??? -1 to hit DS and can carry 4 heavy or 4 specials.

I havent used them in 8th yet, i loved them in 7th but b.c vehicles are so much stronger and they are the same of trueborns i've just been running trueborns. (other than DSing).

Not saying they are not as good, just havent played with them yet.

I have ripped the haywire blasters of mine and started to paint up some dark lances we will see.

Yeah i have 3 units of them, 2 with HWB and 1 with Heat Lances. I want to make 1 with Blasters and 1 with Dark Lances at least.

amishprn86 wrote:

Whats good in 8th (not what got better) IMO after playing about 20 games.

Mandrakes
Reliable Mortal Wounds are good, this will make good for some people, but thats not what makes them good, -1 to hit 5++ DS and potential some mortal wounds, Mandrakes are strong pick, i wouldnt go over board with them tho.

All vehicles
All vehicles in all armies are good now and almost every army will take them.
But the Voidraven is IMO the top compare to all our vehicles.

Trueborn
You might see players only take these guys now over Kabals, Kabals are super cheap but Trueborns are extremely effective and can be built for any shooting Job, AI, AT, AC (Anti-cover), Long or even short range.

Beastpacks: Flocks
Extremely cheap board control and wound pool. With many armies having large movements making a large spot a dead zone or to waste many shots is HUGE. Taking a full strength unit of these guys might be common (like 40 gants for Nids, fills same rolls) and its less than 90pts.

Coven
They are all buffed especially with a character, T5 wracks with 2 wounds and a Electro whip can really be a strong unit now. Talos is just as strong, if you are playing coven Wracks, Grots and Talos will be you bulk along with vehicles.

The big thing is if you want to play DE now you mostly need to build a "main" theme and use others as support, like 2/3 of your army should be 1 of the 3 types, Kabal, Wych, Coven. Having a little of each to fill some holes is great! Incubi/Mandrakes/Fliers will fit in all 3 types as well.

Basically i mean if you want to play Wyches you need to take advantage of the Drug rules with Cheap Wych units, Reavers and a Succubus to get the most out of the bonus's, just like Coven you want the Talos, Cronos and Haemonculus or 2, or even 1 Haemi and Urien R.

Note* Incubi are very strong too, but take up an elite slots over troops, they IMO do a bit more damage than Wrack but also cost dbl the points, so if you want a more reliable CC unit i would pick them.

The MVP's top 3 MVP's of DE i woulds say
1) Trueborn
2) Vehicles
3) Coven/Wracks

If I would to make a extremely balanced TAC list that would bring what i felt are strong units with Dedicated rolls.

Haemi
Haemi
Trueborn +Raider, Dis can
Trueborn +Raider, Dis can
Trueborn +Raider, Dis can
Mandrakes
Beastmaster
Wracks +Venom
Wracks +Venom
Razorwing Flocks
Voidraven
Ravager Dis can x3
Ravager Dark L x3

Good stuff here. Thanks mate.

What do you arm your trueborn with in a TAC build?

I really like having Trueborn as 4x Blasters. For me, Dark Eldar has always been an extreme uneven amount of heavy weaponry per body ratio, which is why I load up my entire army with as many of these as possible. If it does a crap ton of damage, can remove MEQ with ease, and denies armor saves, I'm in.

When it comes to what's good, there's plenty of units that are really good and well-costed IMO. Here's my current bucket of things I like:

Archon, Agonizer, Blaster, PGL - Has to be one of the most cost-effective HQs in the the entire game IMO. Shoots well, good CC, spreads the fear.
5x Warriors, Blaster - Cheap, poison damage, has a Blaster, can take PGL, can fit 2 units of said units in a single Raider.
Raider, Dark Lance/Dissie - Workhorse, worth every point.
Same goes for 3x Dark Lance Ravagers for anti-armor, Dissies for anti-infantry.
Venom, with 2x SC or without - Either way it's a strong, cost-effective transport that is almost as durable as the Raider vs. heavier weaponry.
Razorwing, 2x Dark Lances or Dissies - Incredibly points effective flyer, same points as 3x Dark Lance Ravagers, and the Dissies version is great anti-infantry as well.
Voidraven - Just running stock with 2x Void Lances might be worth it for the Void Mine potential.

Notes:
MSU works better in this edition because of a lot of reasons: Ynnari being one, morale being another, fitting multiple MSU into a single boat e.g. 2x 5-man unit of Warriors or Wyches (double Agonizers, PGL targets, Blasters).

Cost-effective infantry with poison that can wound the biggest things still, and more effective vs. vehicles now because you can actually wound them.

14-16" vehicles that can lock other units in combat.

1-point Shock Prow upgrades and 3-point PGLs on nearly every unit leader.

Vehicles in general being much more durable then they were last edition. Night Shields on virtually everything is basically free 5th Ed. Flickerfields.

The biggest strength of the Dark Eldar book IMO, is not the fact that Dark Eldar have been drastically improved, but because the Eldar are one faction now. This means you can mix and match all your poison, cheap heavy weaponry with Eldar durability and psykers. Harlequins are one of the best assault armies in the game, and you have some of the best flyers in the entire game (as Khaine intended).

Overall, I have never been more happy with this edition of 40K than I have since 3rd. We are finally one race, and it feelsgoodman.jpg.

Blasters on 2 units, shredders on 1 unit (thats what i've been playing with in 8th)

The Shredders 6-7 hits average at S6 (good for cheap AI where blasters are more for Armor, but against Guardsman, nids etc.. shredders are cheaper and does more wounds than Poison and blasters for the points).

This might change tho and i might just take 2x units of kabals in the future for more units so i can get more command points.

HERO wrote:

The biggest strength of the Dark Eldar book IMO, is not the fact that Dark Eldar have been drastically improved, but because the Eldar are one faction now.  This means you can mix and match all your poison, cheap heavy weaponry with Eldar durability and psykers.  Harlequins are one of the best assault armies in the game, and you have some of the best flyers in the entire game (as Khaine intended)

I wouldn't hold my breathe on this to be honest. From the sounds of it, they will award bonuses for more niche and themed armies once the codex for each army comes out. So you will take a hit to your army synergy if you field generic Aeldari. While people playing a Drukhari "coven" force will gain more bonuses.

Yeah they do that in AoS atm, its safe to say when we get Codex's we will have a "bonus" if the full detachment is "Dunkhari"

Britishgrotesque wrote:

HERO wrote:

The biggest strength of the Dark Eldar book IMO, is not the fact that Dark Eldar have been drastically improved, but because the Eldar are one faction now.  This means you can mix and match all your poison, cheap heavy weaponry with Eldar durability and psykers.  Harlequins are one of the best assault armies in the game, and you have some of the best flyers in the entire game (as Khaine intended)

I wouldn't hold my breathe on this to be honest. From the sounds of it, they will award bonuses for more niche and themed armies once the codex for each army comes out. So you will take a hit to your army synergy if you field generic Aeldari. While people playing a Drukhari "coven" force will gain more bonuses.

Depending on how drastically improved these "pure" armies will be. And I don't think a mixed army that covers specific weaknesses is ever "taking a hit". Thematic is great when it works, but I'm always up for looking for in-faction options regardless of theme to make my army more effective.

Vathek wrote:

Subsanity wrote:

I am a bit worried about my MSU list now because of morale. But I am loving everything els.

Small units are mostly immune to morale. It's d6 plus casualties minus ld =morale losses. With ld of 7 you are probably dead before morale failure causes issues

So morale is more to help thin out large units? Is this the reason PGL is useful now?

Subsanity wrote:

Vathek wrote:

Subsanity wrote:

I am a bit worried about my MSU list now because of morale. But I am loving everything els.

Small units are mostly immune to morale. It's d6 plus casualties minus ld =morale losses. With ld of 7 you are probably dead before morale failure causes issues

So morale is more to help thin out large units? Is this the reason PGL is useful now?

No, it's useful because morale in general can be more devastating against units that have moderate leadership and have multiple wounds. You now remove whole models for each point of failed leadership. PGL is also widely available and cheap to boot.

The downside to MSU is obviously the deployment part of the game - alternating plus going first if you finish first can lead to DE being in the firing line for an alpha strike

@ MAssaen
Jeah MSU hurts going first. So we will need to think about our defenses now a little And it does mean go all out MSU and go second all the time, or try not to go to much MSU and have a chance to be first.

@Hero
Also and this sounds silly but PGL is a cheap way of getting vehicle wounds if you would have the unit that could carry the PGL anyway. It is nearly as point efficient as a ravager at dealing wounds to vehicles (bit of a bad case since I calculated from a full price ravager or just the upgrade of the PGL under the assumption you would buy the unit anyway). It is usually a good idea to ad another gun to someone if he has the option for that reason.

|Meavar wrote:

Also and this sounds silly but PGL is a cheap way of getting vehicle wounds if you would have the unit that could carry the PGL anyway. It is nearly as point efficient as a ravager at dealing wounds to vehicles (bit of a bad case since I calculated from a full price ravager or just the upgrade of the PGL under the assumption you would buy the unit anyway)

Could you clarify what you're saying here? The PGL is S1 so will need 6's to wound any vehicle through actual damage. Assuming 3+ to hit and 2 shots (from it's Assault D3) profile and a 3+ save, means you do 0.07 wounds to a vehicle on average (or 1 wound for every 15 times you fire the weapon).

If you're assuming damage from morale tests from the -1 penalty, vehicles are essentially immune to morale as you only have to take the test in the first place if you've suffered a casualty. I'm not sure if vehicle squadrons even exist anymore but most vehicles will be single models and therefore never have to take a morale test.