I just dont 'get' Wracks...I fully appreciate that they are hard to remove, but they don't seem to 'do' anything; it makes us feel more like Death Guard than Drukhari.
I suspect that the demise of Kabalites&Venoms is being overstated. Sure their efficiency has taken a shellacking, but they still offer mobility, dispersed threat, and a bit of resilience; all of which will be valuable with the new missions.
If you go through the percentage changes, I think there are definitely some relative winners here.
HQs Sslyth Incubi Mandrake Clawed Fiends Talos
Relative being the operative word here, of course. But maybe there's something that we could feasibly throw together from this - Talos spam with Mandrake back-up might be a solid list.
Gelmir Sybarite
Posts : 344 Join date : 2018-01-06 Location : near Rotterdam
The only reason I can think of to try Wyches is the fact that pistols can now shoot in melee out of open topped vehicles. Meaning, you just charge the Raider in a unit with the Wyches still inside, and shoot them with pistols while the opponents attacks go toward the Raider. This also makes the Blast Pistol finally a reasonable choice.
A Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons has: - A capacity of 5 models - Subtract's 1 from shooting attacks against it. - A 5++ against shooting - 12 S- AP- D1 Poison 4+ shots at 18" (half that many further away).
A Starweaver with 2 Shuriken Cannons has: - A capacity of 6 models - Subtract's 1 from shooting attacks against it. - A straight 4++ - Always Advances 6" - 6 S6 AP- D1 Rending shots at 24" (Can still be fired after the model Advances).
In 9th, the Starweaver costs 80pts, whilst the Venom costs 90.
Even if you scale back the Venom by removing one of the Splinter Cannons, you're still only saving 5pts. I'd argue that the increased transport capacity alone is worth more than that, let alone the better save, better weapons, and bonus to Advance move.
(For the record, I don't think the Starweaver is too cheap, I think Venoms and Splinter Cannons have been ludicrously overpriced.)
I have absolutely no idea what the motivation behind the splinter cannon change was. Literally zero reason to ever upgrade from a twin-linked splinter rifle if you have the option on a vehicle.
AzraeI Wych
Posts : 630 Join date : 2018-03-04 Location : maybe
I have absolutely no idea what the motivation behind the splinter cannon change was. Literally zero reason to ever upgrade from a twin-linked splinter rifle if you have the option on a vehicle.
Fear I may have been terribly mistaken about Wyches! They actually have some pretty amazing advantages for us this edition!
They’re biggest issue was reliable combat delivery system and Overwatch (pretty much any unit you’d charge would kill a model or two). It was just easier to spam Warriors. But with Wyches just a +1 point over a Warrior, I think there’s a bigger incentive to use them!
A 10 man squad with a Shardenet and Impaler was 88 points at its cheapest. With the new point changes you can field the same unit at only +22 points. Yes that’s a steep price increase of 25%, but if Overwatch is now a Stratagem (that you can Vect), most units that get charged can’t Fall Back and act normally anymore, and that more players may be incentivized to bring expensive/tough units to play objectives, they actually gain a lot.
Getting two units of 10 Wyches with a Shardenet and Impaler in through the Webway (more CP to do this too), to charge into units on objectives sounds really good. Take the custom obsession we got from PA that gives you +1 to Invulnerable Saves while within 1” and you have a squad of objective secured troops with essentially Storm Shields, and the ability to prevent their target from falling back entirely.
@Burnage, TY for looking at the sunny side of things.
Remember back at the begining of 8th when everyone was saying that Venom Spam was dead? Ya, I think we may be over reacting a little here at the start of 9th.
The units that appear to be stand out are: -Reavers -Talos -HQs
Some units that we should be looking at (IMHO) -Scourges (cheaper than Ravagers) -Court of the Archon (cheapest objective holders/ DS denial in the army) -Beast Squads (small/cheap/fast units)
Who wouldent be pissed at seeing a million 2 dog units of Khamere, especially when they can DS?
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harlokin Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 142 Join date : 2013-07-24 Location : London
I think that Reapers could start sneaking into lists. Their major flaw previously was that their weapons were Heavy, but that isn't an issue for vehicles any more.
I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread (or anywhere else on the internet) but do Ynnari look to be in a better spot this edition?
Always strike first actually matters now, Wyches with shardnets possibly seem good at holding an objective in melee, and very minimal point changes to the Yncarne (who I was super impressed with the one time I saw him in play) and their other characters.
Any hope here or am I deluding myself?
Crazy_Ivan Wych
Posts : 515 Join date : 2012-04-10 Location : Wellingborough
I do wonder how they are going to adjust our vehicles to give a the same benefit as moving and shooting. They probably won't mind, guess we will have to wait for the updated codex.
I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread (or anywhere else on the internet) but do Ynnari look to be in a better spot this edition?
Always strike first actually matters now, Wyches with shardnets possibly seem good at holding an objective in melee, and very minimal point changes to the Yncarne (who I was super impressed with the one time I saw him in play) and their other characters.
Any hope here or am I deluding myself?
The Yncarne is in a much worse position now. You used to be able to teleport around and limit your opponent's shooting back at him by having anything closer to them so he couldn't be targeted. Now, if you teleport, he can no longer be screened effectively and will be caught in the open.
His most defining trait is harder than ever to use and he benefitted from none of the buffs to MCs. I wouldn't pay more than 200-220 (maybe) for him right now. He's, IMO, unusable.
Yvraine and the Visarch are still essentially the same as they were, so you can find really tailored and specific uses for them. I don't see the Wraithseer listed in the points change spreadsheet, so it might be going Legends. That was the most powerful Ynnari unit by far since you could give it warlord traits and a relic.
Ynnari are down, but there's probably a few tricks they can pull.
I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread (or anywhere else on the internet) but do Ynnari look to be in a better spot this edition?
Always strike first actually matters now, Wyches with shardnets possibly seem good at holding an objective in melee, and very minimal point changes to the Yncarne (who I was super impressed with the one time I saw him in play) and their other characters.
Any hope here or am I deluding myself?
I can't help but think Ynnari are in a rougher spot thanks solely to the detachment changes. Strike first is stronger but most of Ynnari's real tricks rely on being able to take multiple detachments, and you get penalised very heavily for that in 9th (unless you're DE, naturally).
The characters are fine if you can squeeze them into a native list but I wouldn't run Ynnari as an army.
Also, yes, Reapers look incredible at 150 points now. I'm cautious about them because I think the Forgeworld update is likely to happen soon and I'm expecting them to see some changes there.
Where are people seeing the Reaper revised point cost? All the DE leaks I see exclude Forgeworld.
I am also thinking that the Reaper may be a viable alternative to the Lance Ravager. Although, Fire and Fade with scourges may be a better alternative in 9th, since we are not using FaF on our usual suspects (Ravagers)
harlokin Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 142 Join date : 2013-07-24 Location : London
Where are people seeing the Reaper revised point cost? All the DE leaks I see exclude Forgeworld.
I am also thinking that the Reaper may be a viable alternative to the Lance Ravager. Although, Fire and Fade with scourges may be a better alternative in 9th, since we are not using FaF on our usual suspects (venoms/RWJF)
I thought Scourges were poor at the old points....they aren't tough enough to be anything but a suicide unit, and they lack the damage output to fulfil even that role effectively.
Wrote up some lists last night with some before and after comparisons: https://lkhero.blogspot.com/2020/07/new-points-are-here-time-to-boogy.html
In short, I think the big takeaway is this: There's no use looking back at 8th, we're not going in that way. My point being, the future is now in 9th and we need to prepare for a new meta and new way to play missions. Focus on lists that accomplishes those things before Doomseering that we're done for
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The Strange Dark One Wych
Posts : 881 Join date : 2014-08-22 Location : Private subrealm of the Eldritch Skies Kabal.
Wrote up some lists last night with some before and after comparisons: https://lkhero.blogspot.com/2020/07/new-points-are-here-time-to-boogy.html
In short, I think the big takeaway is this: There's no use looking back at 8th, we're not going in that way. My point being, the future is now in 9th and we need to prepare for a new meta and new way to play missions. Focus on lists that accomplishes those things before Doomseering that we're done for
Competitively speaking, this is not the end of the world. But any "fun" choices got their face smashed in with a ton of bricks.
I loved underdog units like Wyches and Scourges because they brought a fun element into the game. Taloi were arguably better then Grotesques, but I took the latter one regardless. Now, all of those "sub-optimal" choices cost 25% more.
In contrast, our arguably best units Ravagers and Taloi had the smallest point hikes in percent.
I am usually very modest and understanding of many changes that were made to our army. But this isn't just stupid, it's way beyond stupid. I really cannot comprehend this level of incompetence. All they had to do is make another CA, have another step of incremental improvements and give a flat +20% to every faction.
This is GW's sledgehammer approach at its worst.... I'll stop my rant before it gets truly ugly. I mean... seriously GW?
I really cannot comprehend this level of incompetence. All they had to do is make another CA, have another step of incremental improvements and give a flat +20% to every faction.
This right there... Agree 100% The excuse was that they wanted to make armies smaller because of reasons...yes? So why didnt they just raise every unit in the game by a standard fee, and instead gave us this strange rebalance BS, with some of the most questionable choices ever, where space marines came up on top... again? I mean seriously now wtf?
So, as a non competitive player (I play with friends and try to pick units that both look cool and function well, as well as ones I can actually paint), I wonder if this isnt them shifting the points for people like me to encourage certain model purchases.
After all, they are a model making company that uses rule changes and a competitive scene to sell the models, right? Otherwise all the official rules would be a constantly evolving hyper-competitive meta focused on existing models rather than redoing them all the time.
So, wyches were cheap and effective melee, and everyone spammed kabalites in raiders or venoms. How to change that? Oh look, wyches are still cheap enough to justify buying, but talos are more effective. All the forums say so. And why have kabalites when you could have incubi! You know you want to. They look cool, and now they arnt the worst option!
I mean, the theory isnt flawless but...
Honestly, because its just me vs my friends, I am still tempted to pick up and run at least 2x5 wyches in venoms for melee. Now to just figure out what else to do with my wych patrol (which I have nothing of yet). I could do a coven patrol instead, but I have a talos from years ago still in its box that frankly, I wont ever make/paint because there is just too much flesh and I hate painting flesh. I suck at it.
Wrote up some lists last night with some before and after comparisons: https://lkhero.blogspot.com/2020/07/new-points-are-here-time-to-boogy.html
In short, I think the big takeaway is this: There's no use looking back at 8th, we're not going in that way. My point being, the future is now in 9th and we need to prepare for a new meta and new way to play missions. Focus on lists that accomplishes those things before Doomseering that we're done for
Competitively speaking, this is not the end of the world. But any "fun" choices got their face smashed in with a ton of bricks.
I loved underdog units like Wyches and Scourges because they brought a fun element into the game. Taloi were arguably better then Grotesques, but I took the latter one regardless. Now, all of those "sub-optimal" choices cost 25% more.
In contrast, our arguably best units Ravagers and Taloi had the smallest point hikes in percent.
I am usually very modest and understanding of many changes that were made to our army. But this isn't just stupid, it's way beyond stupid. I really cannot comprehend this level of incompetence. All they had to do is make another CA, have another step of incremental improvements and give a flat +20% to every faction.
This is GW's sledgehammer approach at its worst.... I'll stop my rant before it gets truly ugly. I mean... seriously GW?
On the point of: "cannot really comprehend this level of incompetence" - I can.
I'll post something I wrote in the CWE FB group so I'll just copy and paste it here. This was my reply to a thread about how GW has no idea what to do with Eldar, and it seems like with each update we just get dumbed down more and more, in which our special rules are being handed out for free to other races.
Here's my resp:
Quote :
I'll chime in here as a competitive player since 3rd Edition. I've also worked in the game industry for almost 20 years and have been on countless balance-related projects, teams and collaborations.
First, I'd like to say that I enjoyed your post very much. I think it was well-written and talks about a lot of the things that has been troubling me as a player lately. Like I said before, I'm a competitive player first, but I didn't get into Eldar (I played all 3 races) because of their strength on the table. I got into them because I liked their aesthetic and playstyle, as I've always been a fan of "elven"-ish hit and run tactics with superior firepower and weapons.
I'll be frank with you: GW is still very much super-green when it comes to balancing the game, engaging with balance testers and writing rules that can both satisfy the needs of casual and competitive. When I'm talking about competitive, I'm talking about relative army power with respect to points balance primarily, and how one army's power compares to another in a competitive game, within a 1v1 setting. When I speak of casual, I'm talking about the playerbase (the large majority of the community) who got into the game based on the aesthetics, the lore/fluff/history and the model range.
What is important about both groups is that they enjoy playing with the people who share the same interests. Competitive players competing with other competitive players, and casual players like playing with casual.
When it comes to writing solid rules for the competitive crowd, the rules must be clear, concise and deliberate. When I take a look at the 9th Ed. rules, I just don't see that unfortunately. To make matters worse, and something that I think is actually damaging the game for a lot of reasons, is the simplification and streamlining of rules to the point where armies feel less unique and interesting. Let me first say that writing clear, concise and deliberate rules does NOT mean streamlining and over-simplification. For GW, since they're still super-green when it comes to engaging with the balance testers and writing rules for a more competitive crowd, they are obviously confusing the two. Balancing a game is still very much in the realm of game design because you have to preserve faction identity to tell a cohesive story. In terms of difficulty, balancing a game with very simplistic rules nets you something that'll eventually turn into Chess. On the completely other side of the fence, if you ignore balance and focus on fluff, you'll get something that was more akin to the 40K of old. GW is really struggling to maintain the elements that made certain armies unique in the first place while also being able cater to the more competitive crowd. I mean, I'm glad they're doing it in the first place and joining the modern world of game developers. This is already a huge step for where they were years ago, but I want to assure you that they're still very new when it comes to this style of game design.
At the end of the day, balance, when performed correctly, your casual player won't even notice. Why? Because the very reason why they fell in love for the hobby and the faction they play will be completely unaffected. The army units that they selected is still as unique and flavorful as before and they still look and model the same. However, for the competitive player, they will most certainly notice some subtle in rules changes or a slight points increase or decrease. This is where I think GW is currently suffer, especially for the Eldar. As more Primaris stuff come out, it seems like Eldar is losing a lot of its identity and its true. Even when going from 7th to 8th, it was a complete over-simplification to what Eldar is capable of. I mean lol, just look at how meaningless "lance" weapons are. They don't even have anything unique to them other than 1 extra bit of AP. Then with the new Marine codex, all of a sudden in the first round (post-FAQ, pre..lol), everyone was shooting Void Lances. Hell, Tau Battlesuits lost their ability to jump around after shooting. Do you even see Crisis Suits these days? These are the things that all players should be upset about honestly. Otherwise, you're just playing another flavor of marine.
TLDR: What you're seeing is 100% accurate. Eldar is for sure getting less and less unique. This is due to GW's struggles to balance competitive design decisions vs. casual ones. It goes without saying its much more difficult to meet in the middle of those competing design philosophies than just make Lances -1AP more than a Lascannon
In summary: GW is green as grass when it comes to game balancing. The "rush job" as you describe it, is testament to this
The units that appear to be stand out are: -Reavers -Talos -HQs
Reavers are so malleable between their Cult, weapon options and combat drugs. I think with the rule changes and the expected meta changes Reavers will be invaluable. Still wish they could take a Blast Pistol.
Quote :
Some units that we should be looking at (IMHO) -Scourges (cheaper than Ravagers)
A unit of Scourges with 4 Blasters is 5 points more expensive in this edition. If they take a Blast Pistol, they are the same cost as in 8th. With the change in Blast weapons, that Solarite is also a threat to infantry hordes. A shame about Shredders going up in cost.
Quote :
Beast Squads (small/cheap/fast units)
The Morale phase changes are more forgiving to Beasts running around on their own. Not Clawed Fiends, which are more relevant now in 8th. I can see units of 4 or 5 running around locking down and eating up 5 man Primaris squads on their own.
Quote :
Who wouldent be pissed at seeing a million 2 dog units of Khamere, especially when they can DS?
You are limited to 3 Beast units per detachment, and require at least 1 Beastmaster. Beasts are unable to be fielded in a Kabal or Coven detachment without the Beastmaster ruining your Obsession.
Subject: Re: 40k 9th Editon 
Tue Jul 14 2020, 10:29
