Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 15:29
I was looking at the new 40k web, just for curiosity, and innary not appears as faction anymore but as a subfaction of craftworld, drukhari an harlequins, along with other subfactions as black heart, for example.
Could that means that we will se the 3 innary characters as hq options in the drukhari codex, like happened in 5th with the harlequins troupes?
Last edited by Rodi Sikni on Tue Mar 09 2021, 15:35; edited 1 time in total
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dumpeal Hekatrix
Posts : 1275 Join date : 2015-02-13 Location : Québec
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 15:35
Dark Elf Dave wrote:
We don’t know all the rules and different players will have different expectations.
If she keeps the re rolls vs characters it will be useful and we don’t yet know the cult special rules either as yet. I think it’s likely she will keep her 3++. The jury is out. What I liked the most about the reveal was the choice of the two special rules.
What should Lelith be able to do? Should she one shot a Primaris Captain for example? Or should she one shot an average HQ? Is it ok that if she keeps the re rolls she would still kill the Primaris Captain...but it would take two rounds. Or do you think she should just one shot everything?
The point is not if she's strong or not. It's just her (previewed) rules are boring as hell. It's like in video games. When you're making a boss, you can just increase the hp, the damage and call it a day. It works, but it's boring.
sekac Wych
Posts : 744 Join date : 2017-06-03
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 15:40
Dark Elf Dave wrote:
We don’t know all the rules and different players will have different expectations.
If she keeps the re rolls vs characters it will be useful and we don’t yet know the cult special rules either as yet. I think it’s likely she will keep her 3++. The jury is out. What I liked the most about the reveal was the choice of the two special rules.
What should Lelith be able to do? Should she one shot a Primaris Captain for example? Or should she one shot an average HQ? Is it ok that if she keeps the re rolls she would still kill the Primaris Captain...but it would take two rounds. Or do you think she should just one shot everything?
Nobody has said she should one-shot everything.
If she's supposed to be good at killing infantry, she shouldn't be scared of 10 orks. That's more than she can handle. That's bad.
DevilDoll Wych
Posts : 523 Join date : 2013-08-16
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 15:41
Rodi Sikni wrote:
I was looking at the new 40k web, just for curiosity, and innary not appears as faction anymore but as a subfaction of craftworld, drukhari an harlequins, along with other subfactions as black heart, for example.
Could that means that we will se the 3 innary characters as hq options in the drukhari codex, like happened in 5th with the harlequins troupes?
oh god this could potentialy be the best news so far lol
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ursvamp Hellion
Posts : 97 Join date : 2018-01-30
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 15:49
albions-angel wrote:
I am still not sure she will be the supreme commander for us. I dont know who will be. I dont know if we will get one
Yeah, it would be exceedingly weird if she became our supreme commander. Both from a story perspective and, as Skulnbonz brings up, stats-wise.
DevilDoll wrote:
i have a feeling , call it a fools hope, that we will get Vect with the Campaign book... Not sure how that will works exactly
Considering how much of a show they made of increasing his power even further, in the last codex. How very spot on he fits the idea of what a supreme commander is supposed to represent, and how on par with other Supremes/Primarchs his model could be (assuming it’s him on the Dais), it seems certain, to me, that he will get a model at some point and that he will be our Supreme.Com. When that will happen, though, is anyone’s guess. But I don’t expect that we will get a Sup’Com before that.
Him showing up with the campaign book could be very fun! (As it would imply some sort of large-scale invasion, to really throw off the other factions^^) and could be possible, considering we know next to nothing about what comes with it. (Or even when it’s coming out!) I like how you think!
And, as has been seen with both the Necron and the Space Marine codexes, they no longer seem to fear putting rules in for stuff that won’t get models for another several months. It’ll be interesting to keep an eye on how it all unfolds.
DevilDoll wrote:
isnt it something like psychic aweakening or am i completely wrong here?
I don’t think they’ve said anything about how big the charadon-campaign is going to be. When Psycic. Awa. kicked off they said it would be a big thing that would affect the world and that everyone would get something (if I recall correctly). This one seems more local. So maybe at least 2-3 books, and a bunch of factions represented/showing up, but probably not everyone?
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Dark Elf Dave Wych
Posts : 747 Join date : 2017-05-19
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 15:56
dumpeal wrote:
Dark Elf Dave wrote:
We don’t know all the rules and different players will have different expectations.
If she keeps the re rolls vs characters it will be useful and we don’t yet know the cult special rules either as yet. I think it’s likely she will keep her 3++. The jury is out. What I liked the most about the reveal was the choice of the two special rules.
What should Lelith be able to do? Should she one shot a Primaris Captain for example? Or should she one shot an average HQ? Is it ok that if she keeps the re rolls she would still kill the Primaris Captain...but it would take two rounds. Or do you think she should just one shot everything?
The point is not if she's strong or not. It's just her (previewed) rules are boring as hell. It's like in video games. When you're making a boss, you can just increase the hp, the damage and call it a day. It works, but it's boring.
Well each to their own but I’m not interested in comments like “boring”. Do you even like the game anymore? I’m 38 years old, I don’t get “excited” about any character/unit in the entire game. I just like the game overall. What’s so interesting about Lelith anyway? She’s a melee specialist. How interesting can you make that??? She kills stuff. Simple.
DevilDoll Wych
Posts : 523 Join date : 2013-08-16
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 15:56
[quote="ursvamp"]
albions-angel wrote:
I don’t think they’ve said anything about how big the charadon-campaign is going to be. When Psycic. Awa. kicked off they said it would be a big thing that would affect the world and that everyone would get something (if I recall correctly). This one seems more local. So maybe at least 2-3 books, and a bunch of factions represented/showing up, but probably not everyone?
yeah the thing is we alrteady know that we are one of the factions that will be represented in the books so i think we can keep our hopes up ^_^
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Rodi Sikni Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 136 Join date : 2017-12-09
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 15:59
after see the new 40k web and the new status of the innary as a subfaction of every other aeldary, i'm starting to think that the avatar will be our supremme Commander option.
write in other language in a phone while fight with the autocomplete and the autocorrect could send you to reach the nirvana or to a jail, that's for sure.
Last edited by Rodi Sikni on Tue Mar 09 2021, 16:03; edited 1 time in total
Dark Elf Dave Wych
Posts : 747 Join date : 2017-05-19
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 16:00
I don’t want DE to have anything to do with Ynnari. Personally.
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Burnage Incubi
Posts : 1505 Join date : 2017-09-12
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 16:05
Hot take but I think we're not going to see a Drukhari supreme commander, specifically; instead Lelith could be one for Wych Cults, and Urien one for Covens. In practice this works out to the same thing, but it makes a bit more sense to me conceptually...
Of course, if Vect ever graces the tabletop again he'll very clearly fill the supreme commander role for Kabals.
DevilDoll Wych
Posts : 523 Join date : 2013-08-16
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 16:12
Burnage wrote:
Hot take but I think we're not going to see a Drukhari supreme commander, specifically; instead Lelith could be one for Wych Cults, and Urien one for Covens. In practice this works out to the same thing, but it makes a bit more sense to me conceptually...
Of course, if Vect ever graces the tabletop again he'll very clearly fill the supreme commander role for Kabals.
Well they clearly stated that the supreme commander is the FACTION leader and the one we already think it is so imo it wont be either ynnari or Lelith or Urien... It will clearly be Vect when and IF he comes out Anything else makes absolutely zero sense and jokes aside i dont think they will even dare try it
Edit: Btw Vect has reached godlike stature now so it would make perfect sense to be on the same page as the other supreme commanders with or without his Dais
Last edited by DevilDoll on Tue Mar 09 2021, 16:20; edited 2 times in total
Rodi Sikni Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 136 Join date : 2017-12-09
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 16:15
Dark Elf Dave wrote:
I don’t want DE to have anything to do with Ynnari. Personally.
Me neither, but i'm conform myself if this means that gw will stop using our characters as a punchbag of the Ynnari in a vain try to give them some lore value.
albions-angel Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 234 Join date : 2014-05-22
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 16:19
Interesting to note, while Ynnari is listed as a subfaction of each of the Aeldari factions on the website, the actual text still says that it allows players to take units of all 3 races under one FACTION.
I think its just convenient to put it there, as there are only 3 models and its really a way of getting around the alliance rules, rather than it being a massive faction. The fluff is very much following the crunch with Ynnari, with it initially being intended so people could go back to running Quins and Eldar together like they used to, and then throwing in DE as an after thought to make a fully functional "space elves" army without hobbling yourself.
Soulless Samurai Incubi
Posts : 1921 Join date : 2018-04-02
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 16:21
Rodi Sikni wrote:
I was looking at the new 40k web, just for curiosity, and innary not appears as faction anymore but as a subfaction of craftworld, drukhari an harlequins, along with other subfactions as black heart, for example.
Could that means that we will se the 3 innary characters as hq options in the drukhari codex, like happened in 5th with the harlequins troupes?
Honestly, I'd love for Ynnari to be an option without it also shackling us to that sodding special character trio.
harlokin Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 142 Join date : 2013-07-24 Location : London
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 17:02
Dark Elf Dave wrote:
I don’t want DE to have anything to do with Ynnari. Personally.
Preach it!
Ubernoob1 Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 160 Join date : 2013-04-20 Location : Newport News, Virginia
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 17:49
GreyArea wrote:
Ubernoob1 wrote:
GreyArea wrote:
Either way, at least we might see some new Drukhari rules in this campaign book preview.
Let's hope its something a bit more inspiring than sidegrading our splinter cannons and acting like its a revolutionary gift from the gods XD
I know this is several pages back but I just wanted to reply to this:
While I obviously hope we get all kinds of neat and tasty things with supplements and our codex, for anyone who is struggling to understand where most of the negativity around Dark Eldar stems from, I still remember back in 7th edition where they released an Apoc Campign book with Dark Eldar, Craftworld Eldar, and Tyranids. The story was neat, and has since CONTINUED into our codecies as this was the event where the Dark Eldar teleported an entire planet full of tyranid through the webway and into the skies of Commoragh.
Now, as awesome as that bit of storyline is: Dark Eldar were literally the only reason that battle was an Eldar victory. We got a few apocalypses formations from it, but there were a few things the other two got that we did not.
Now if that was all, it'd be unfortunate but fine. No, what I can't seem to forget is that about 3 months after this campaign book released, the Dark Eldar 7th edition codex landed and completely rewrote the rules on Power from Pain, and thereby made a good half of the formations we got useless as they specifically interacted with pain tokens from the 5th edition codex.
Oh, and when the Ynnari were first released and they came with their big formation-detachment that could combine all of the eldar, including all of the 7th editions formations they came with? Well...the only formations Dark Eldar had were a single from the codex, and then the haemonculus coven supplement. Which of course, coven couldn't be Ynnari back then either. But luckily for us, we were granted the right to include a formation that increased the effective turn for PfP by 1 for units in the formation.
...except for the part where by joining the ynnari detachment, dark eldar lost their power from pain rule...
Also, I still remember when we were straight lied to during the previews to the very start of 8th edition. The Drukhari previews specifically mentioned the wych's new ability to hold down units, and even mentioned the Tau Crisis battlesuits they had previewed earlier, including the 8e fly rules, would make excellent targets for this tarpit ability.
...except for the part where wyches can only use that ability on infantry, and Crisis suits do not have the infantry keyword...
Oh and while I agree that we cannot know everything until the book is fully released, we have also gone through at least one period of "don't worry, just wait for your next codex" to which the end result was...subpar and unsatisfactory at best.
So at least for me, and I believe for some others, the problem right now isn't "the previews aren't anything crazy powerful awesome yet, so the codex must suck" and more "GW has previewed nothing yet that excited me. Please don't let this continue to be the level at which our codex will sit upon release."
TLDR: I understand there is a level of pessimism that goes too far, but some of us remember actually getting emotionally punched in the gut by decisions, rather than just not having the shiniest toys.
I get it dude. With the exception of incubi and draz the previews haven't wowed me either. I'm also concerned that they will make some big slip ups as you describe and fail to address some of the core issues we have in our current book.
That said I'm also not emotionally scarred as I only came back to the game at the very end of 7th so didn't experience what came before. I'm not completely sure if you were referring to the 8th edition book when you described a past codex as "subpar and unsatisfactory at best". If so, I disagree, we were one of the best armies on its release and in a rare example of longevity stayed competitive despite the release of other books (until the madness that was the second SM codex of 8th).
With the massive jump in survivability of marines and DG I agree we need an exceptional book to compete this time round. My biased towards optimism comes partly from just who I am but also from looking how necrons book turned out. They got lots of strong and flavorful rules and if we get a similar treatment we could be in a good spot. I just don't want to continue to be relegated to being a aim to win on movement army that can't kill anything in the meta. That strikes me as very unDE.
Sorry, I should have wrote that a bit better. I didn’t mean that to be addressing/calling you out specifically, but just using it as a springboard as I have seen plenty of people (including outside this forum site) day things like they literally cannot understand how we can be so negative.
I was actually referring to the 7th edition codex. My personal favorite was playing the 5e codex but during 6e. And a lot of that was not only the flavour of the codex, but the optimism of "yeah there are some kinks needing worked out, but any day now we'll get something awesome like Tau or Eldar or Space Marines." And then it just...wasn't.
As for the 8e codex, I'm one of those in the camp of it has it's strengths, absolutely. But it feels like it's falling further from the army I started playing a decade ago, while almost everyone else seems to continue to not just get stuff but become closer and closer to matching their fluff. By the end of 7th I was playing most of my lists as half FW corsairs, half dark eldar, and I was actually having a blast for the first time since the 7e codex.
...then corsairs stopped being a thing...
So again, my apologies for wording that as though I was replying to you specifically, I did not mean for that to happen. But I'm also one of those people who would rather lose in a fun way win in a boring way (of course, losing in a spectacularly boring and overwhelming matter does still sucks more and unfortunately I've had my share of those games too. You don't know pain until 5 darklight weapons hitting on 3s and causing glancing hits (7e and prior) on 2s fail to cause a single hullpoint of damage...
And now and again I see posts that I find hard to understand myself. Like, I still do not understand where or how people are seemingly firing so many splinter shots. Maybe I'm just that bad at understanding the current book, but through my eyes all I see are enemies who have gained 2-3x as many wounds since 5e while only rarely being 2-3x their cost, while we've gained litle to no increased fire rate/volume.
There are a lot of little issues that add up rapidly imo. Yeah, poisoned infantry weapons are good vs high toughness nonvehicles, but again...monsters gained some 3 or 4 times the number of wounds going from 7e to 8e. Our splinter weapons did not get any better. Or heck, I remember another of the 8th edition (not codex) previews talking about how amazing it was that our splinter weapons, which previously could not hurt vehicles, now had a chance to!
...and then thinking that the standard issue space marine boltgun that every disliked by that point went from being unable to hurt the front or side of MOST of the tanks in the game, to wounding on 5s. Or the lasgun... as petty as it is, bring given praise for something that a LASGUN was newly able to do better than us felt like a bad thing to try and promote the army over: which is a big part of my overall angst and salt, less about the interaction between our weapons and enemies, and more than the things GW decides would get us hyped via previews...are no better than or directly worse than the standard of most everyone else.
Anyways...I know I'm writing way too long of messages... thanks to whoever has the patience to actually read any of this mess.
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Ubernoob1 Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 160 Join date : 2013-04-20 Location : Newport News, Virginia
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 18:56
mynamelegend wrote:
So I have a question for everyone who's upset about Lelith's statline and rules... What would you have liked to have seen instead? Not just "something better", but what actual concrete ruleset would you have preferred to see?
I'm personally still on the fence about what has been previewed so far for her, but I have plenty of pessimism in my head anyways so I'll try and chime in.
First off, I would say (and agree with others who have said it before me) that I don't WANT Lelith to only be 80 points. I'd much rather see named characters be expensive, but powerful. The other thing is I personally don't care much about fielding named characters myself, BUT I do care about simply having the representation of them within the game itself. I feel the same about Vect: honestly I never fielded him before and probably wouldn't if he got models and rules, but until we see SOMETHING it just feels like we're ignored. Heck, I'd be fine with something strange along the lines of paying points to field not Vect, but a new set of rules to represent Vect's presence as personally overseeing the battle. One stratagem is nice, but it's not quite the same. I also believe a big issue is, as has been stated many times, is the lack of other HQ options. Both the units, and wargear/rules. Having the option to choose a focus for an HQ rather than just picking between 2 slightly different melee folk (at which as of right now, we technically still don't even get as much of a 'choice' because we have to pick the HQ based on the kabal or wych subfaction that the detachment is going with).
As for Lelith specifically, I also find that question hard to answer solely on the basis that most of the best units or rules I've seen are things that NO ONE predicted, or things that others have purely wishlisted for and either got, or another army got instead. It's hard to tell what GW is and is not willing to do because they are so often all over the place. But I'll try anyways:
What about (and this could apply to Archons and generic succubi, but maybe Lelith's is stronger or just special in some way) rather than having an "inspirational aura," by fielding said HQ their subfaction units (or subfaction core units if that has to be a thing still) get a thing kind of like a reverse version of the space wolf's warlord trait saga's. Rather than giving other units benefits for being nearby, our core units are trying to "impress" (either because of actual admiration, or trying to move up the ranks) said HQ by showing off and thus any unit that succeeds at...a thing based on whatever the rule is, (I dunno, maybe also could pick from a 3-6 item list each game with a different objective and reward?), that units gets a permanent bonus the rest of the game, so long as the HQ is still alive. This could potentially solve a lot of the Aura in transport issues, add what I think is fun and potentially flavourful, and fits the theme of not only ye old pain tokens, but even the current "Drukhari gain more strength the longer they fight." By having said list, that could help the player differentiate further as to what their specific subfaction or part of the subfaction wants to accomplish, or be known for being good at. Our subfactions may have their specialities, but until the 8e codex I'd never seen enough fluff representation to think they're AS different or specialized as some of the others, but the individual leaders have different tastes or vices which changes how they fight or lead.
I don't mind the "pick a stance for the turn" type rule, though I will also echo that either clarification or exception to the rule activating at a time the model is technically not on the board would be nice. I think though having a third stance that would be similar to her "rerolls vs characters" thing and maybe something else like a single mortal wound INSTEAD of damage on a wound of 6 vs characters (or maybea little better than just a 6, I dunno). That way she can have the character killing option we'd like to see from her but it isn't some crazy broken thing, and it isn't baked into her base statline so you do have to pick what her focus for that turn will be. Risky if you choose wrong, but imo rewarding for trying to plan ahead.
I do agree that the math behind her fighting 2 or 3 wound primaris marines with a 1 damage weapon is...not favorable. I don't know however if I actually want her to take on a full squad of them on her own. I could potentially see something along the lines of "the player in control of Lelith may choose to allocate where her wounds are placed first." This can add to the lethal 'precision' where, rather than take down a whole squad, she just eliminates the squad leader, or a special weapon, and then leaves the rest to her wyches because she's already looking for more worthy prey. This would also then leave Drazhar as the hard hitting monstrosity that he seems to be getting aimed towards, but actually gives purpose to fielding a different melee HQ.
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 22:33
I would love to see her as a little Solitaire with big buffs vs Characters. An Assassin-Solitaire. Where Drazhar would have been just raw power.
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Hanga Hellion
Posts : 28 Join date : 2018-09-17
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 22:50
I hope to see lilith get 3+ invul, full rerolls against characters and either +1 dmg if ome condition is met or ignore invuln saves.
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Dark Elf Dave Wych
Posts : 747 Join date : 2017-05-19
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 23:04
I’d be surprised to see +1 damage. The reason I say that is that even with all the whining on here, +1 damage would make Lelith a bit of a problem! She would one shot most unnamed characters and even a fair few named characters. That would be pretty cool don’t get me wrong.
It’s a shame she’s so few points. I think the points cost handicaps just how good she’s going to be.
For someone wanting to take a full Wych army then she’s a cool choice.
Soulless Samurai Incubi
Posts : 1921 Join date : 2018-04-02
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Tue Mar 09 2021, 23:19
What's our point of comparison here?
e.g. Ragnar is just 130pts and on the charge he has 10 S6 AP-4 D2 attacks. If Assault Doctrine is active he also gets the same exploding 6s ability Lelith does.
Plus he hands out three different buffs to nearby units.
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Dark Elf Dave Wych
Posts : 747 Join date : 2017-05-19
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Wed Mar 10 2021, 00:00
Soulless Samurai wrote:
What's our point of comparison here?
e.g. Ragnar is just 130pts and on the charge he has 10 S6 AP-4 D2 attacks. If Assault Doctrine is active he also gets the same exploding 6s ability Lelith does.
Plus he hands out three different buffs to nearby units.
Well that’s Lelith and a Succubus give or take for similar points.
Lelith is pointed like a Primaris Captain. Not Ragnar who is one of the more famous characters in the game.
Burnage Incubi
Posts : 1505 Join date : 2017-09-12
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Wed Mar 10 2021, 00:18
Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Soulless Samurai wrote:
What's our point of comparison here?
e.g. Ragnar is just 130pts and on the charge he has 10 S6 AP-4 D2 attacks. If Assault Doctrine is active he also gets the same exploding 6s ability Lelith does.
Plus he hands out three different buffs to nearby units.
Well that’s Lelith and a Succubus give or take for similar points.
Lelith is pointed like a Primaris Captain. Not Ragnar who is one of the more famous characters in the game.
She also has absolutely nothing on a Twilight Fang/Darkness' Bite Troupe Master, who's only 70 points.
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sekac Wych
Posts : 744 Join date : 2017-06-03
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Wed Mar 10 2021, 00:44
Burnage wrote:
Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Soulless Samurai wrote:
What's our point of comparison here?
e.g. Ragnar is just 130pts and on the charge he has 10 S6 AP-4 D2 attacks. If Assault Doctrine is active he also gets the same exploding 6s ability Lelith does.
Plus he hands out three different buffs to nearby units.
Well that’s Lelith and a Succubus give or take for similar points.
Lelith is pointed like a Primaris Captain. Not Ragnar who is one of the more famous characters in the game.
She also has absolutely nothing on a Twilight Fang/Darkness' Bite Troupe Master, who's only 70 points.
Exactly.
Our characters don't have to be garbage just because they have been for so long. It's okay for our characters to be good at something.
I converted the 5th ed metal Lelith into a generic succubus and have absolutely no regrets. She has never not been hot garbage. She continues to be hot garbage.
She costs the same as a squad of shredder scourges, but is worse at killing infantry and with much higher risks in the attempt. With regards to internal balance alone, she doesn't hold up.
She's really bad.
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Soulless Samurai Incubi
Posts : 1921 Join date : 2018-04-02
Subject: Re: Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex Wed Mar 10 2021, 01:06
Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Soulless Samurai wrote:
What's our point of comparison here?
e.g. Ragnar is just 130pts and on the charge he has 10 S6 AP-4 D2 attacks. If Assault Doctrine is active he also gets the same exploding 6s ability Lelith does.
Plus he hands out three different buffs to nearby units.
Well that’s Lelith and a Succubus give or take for similar points.
Lelith is pointed like a Primaris Captain. Not Ragnar who is one of the more famous characters in the game.
Okay. But why does she need to stay cheap? We've already got Succubi for that.
Surely, if anything, Lelith should be the other end of the spectrum?