Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Speaking of her statline, I notice that (at least in terms of base stats) DE haven't gotten any faster.

I guess Lelith herself can at least Advance and still Charge now but given that this is a special rule almost certainly unique to her I doubt we'll be seeing it anywhere else.

Would be nice if we weren't worse than the other eldar factions even at the thing we're supposed to excel at, but I guess that's just asking too much of GW.

I think it's too early to call that yet. Our mobility will be decided with our special rules.
In theory, we could get some good obsessions, PFP abilities or stock special rules that address the issues (in mobility) that we have.

Even if all units across our codex get +1" or +2" movement, our core issues would persist.

My hope was that unlike with Blood of the Phoenix, they would actually use established lore and advice from playtester’s like Lawrence and the Splintermind guys to inform the rules and game mechanics for our factions. Lelith’s stats are melee Kabalite dumb and truly confirm that teams who write each codex work totally independent of one another and have no idea what’s in the other codexes, as there is no conceivable planet where the truly meta-warping DG or DA rules make sense when compared to Lelith’s.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Speaking of her statline, I notice that (at least in terms of base stats) DE haven't gotten any faster.

I guess Lelith herself can at least Advance and still Charge now but given that this is a special rule almost certainly unique to her I doubt we'll be seeing it anywhere else.

Would be nice if we weren't worse than the other eldar factions even at the thing we're supposed to excel at, but I guess that's just asking too much of GW.

I think it's too early to call that yet. Our mobility will be decided with our special rules.
In theory, we could get some good obsessions, PFP abilities or stock special rules that address the issues (in mobility) that we have.

Serious question - what mobility rule are you expecting us to get?

We know that our infantry aren't getting any extra movement (or else we would have seen it with Lelith).

We also know that we're not getting 'Advance and Charge' and/or 'Fall Back and Charge', otherwise Lelith wouldn't need her own special rule to gain access to those.

What's left?

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Even if all units across our codex get +1" or +2" movement, our core issues would persist.

Sure.

But those core issues will also persist in the absence of us getting +1-2" of movement. The only difference is that we'll also be that much slower.

The presence of her special rules tells me that the obsessions have changed ... like all of them ... Lelith used to be able to get those rules from obsessions and a stratagem, if they are now unique to her through the command phase stuff then they aren't in obsessions or stratagems anymore ... so I wonder what they picked as general druhkari obsessions

Soulless Samurai wrote:

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Speaking of her statline, I notice that (at least in terms of base stats) DE haven't gotten any faster.

I guess Lelith herself can at least Advance and still Charge now but given that this is a special rule almost certainly unique to her I doubt we'll be seeing it anywhere else.

Would be nice if we weren't worse than the other eldar factions even at the thing we're supposed to excel at, but I guess that's just asking too much of GW.

I think it's too early to call that yet. Our mobility will be decided with our special rules.
In theory, we could get some good obsessions, PFP abilities or stock special rules that address the issues (in mobility) that we have.

Serious question - what mobility rule are you expecting us to get?

We know that our infantry aren't getting any extra movement (or else we would have seen it with Lelith).

We also know that we're not getting 'Advance and Charge' and/or 'Fall Back and Charge', otherwise Lelith wouldn't need her own special rule to gain access to those.

What's left?

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Even if all units across our codex get +1" or +2" movement, our core issues would persist.

Sure.

But those core issues will also persist in the absence of us getting +1-2" of movement. The only difference is that we'll also be that much slower.

I do expect that we get the "Assault Vehicle" rule in one form or another. Maybe it will be an obsession, maybe it will be a stock rule on transports. But I don't think that's actually enough to ensure that our T3 melee models don't get shot off the board (since you can't charge). However, it will help our Kabalites and Wracks to hold onto objectives.

Overall, I would expect more abilities that coincide with advancing which will replace "Eager to Flay" from PfP. Perhaps something like "you can advance and shoot rapid fire weapons", "your minimum advance distance is 3" or add +1" to advance and charge rolls.

They could turn our transports into Assault Vehicles and give Wych Cults special rules that allow them to charge after disembarking. Now that would make a difference.

There is lots and lots of design space. But I doubt GW is creative enough to use it and they rehash their design toolkit. Then they put the real innovation into Marine codices which come down the line. It has happened too often...

Silverglade wrote:

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

No way. She will fight twice after killing a model. No way a whole unit just to get that ability off. Just no way.

ummmmm. no one was saying that.   Not sure what you're reacting to with this post?

You might want to re-read the post directly above his.

Archon_91 wrote:

The presence of her special rules tells me that the obsessions have changed ... like all of them ... Lelith used to be able to get those rules from obsessions and a stratagem, if they are now unique to her through the command phase stuff then they aren't in obsessions or stratagems anymore ... so I wonder what they picked as general druhkari obsessions

I've got a hunch, and it is only just that, that there will be a kabal obsession to turn Splinter Cannons to rapid fire.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Speaking of her statline, I notice that (at least in terms of base stats) DE haven't gotten any faster.

I guess Lelith herself can at least Advance and still Charge now but given that this is a special rule almost certainly unique to her I doubt we'll be seeing it anywhere else.

Would be nice if we weren't worse than the other eldar factions even at the thing we're supposed to excel at, but I guess that's just asking too much of GW.

I think it's too early to call that yet. Our mobility will be decided with our special rules.
In theory, we could get some good obsessions, PFP abilities or stock special rules that address the issues (in mobility) that we have.

Serious question - what mobility rule are you expecting us to get?

We know that our infantry aren't getting any extra movement (or else we would have seen it with Lelith).

We also know that we're not getting 'Advance and Charge' and/or 'Fall Back and Charge', otherwise Lelith wouldn't need her own special rule to gain access to those.

What's left?

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Even if all units across our codex get +1" or +2" movement, our core issues would persist.

Sure.

But those core issues will also persist in the absence of us getting +1-2" of movement. The only difference is that we'll also be that much slower.

All Wyches for like 18yrs could Run and Charge. so... that.

GreyArea wrote:

Either way, at least we might see some new Drukhari rules in this campaign book preview.

Let's hope its something a bit more inspiring than sidegrading our splinter cannons and acting like its a revolutionary gift from the gods XD

I know this is several pages back but I just wanted to reply to this:

While I obviously hope we get all kinds of neat and tasty things with supplements and our codex, for anyone who is struggling to understand where most of the negativity around Dark Eldar stems from, I still remember back in 7th edition where they released an Apoc Campign book with Dark Eldar, Craftworld Eldar, and Tyranids. The story was neat, and has since CONTINUED into our codecies as this was the event where the Dark Eldar teleported an entire planet full of tyranid through the webway and into the skies of Commoragh.

Now, as awesome as that bit of storyline is: Dark Eldar were literally the only reason that battle was an Eldar victory. We got a few apocalypses formations from it, but there were a few things the other two got that we did not.

Now if that was all, it'd be unfortunate but fine. No, what I can't seem to forget is that about 3 months after this campaign book released, the Dark Eldar 7th edition codex landed and completely rewrote the rules on Power from Pain, and thereby made a good half of the formations we got useless as they specifically interacted with pain tokens from the 5th edition codex.

Oh, and when the Ynnari were first released and they came with their big formation-detachment that could combine all of the eldar, including all of the 7th editions formations they came with? Well...the only formations Dark Eldar had were a single from the codex, and then the haemonculus coven supplement. Which of course, coven couldn't be Ynnari back then either. But luckily for us, we were granted the right to include a formation that increased the effective turn for PfP by 1 for units in the formation.

...except for the part where by joining the ynnari detachment, dark eldar lost their power from pain rule...

Also, I still remember when we were straight lied to during the previews to the very start of 8th edition. The Drukhari previews specifically mentioned the wych's new ability to hold down units, and even mentioned the Tau Crisis battlesuits they had previewed earlier, including the 8e fly rules, would make excellent targets for this tarpit ability.

...except for the part where wyches can only use that ability on infantry, and Crisis suits do not have the infantry keyword...

Oh and while I agree that we cannot know everything until the book is fully released, we have also gone through at least one period of "don't worry, just wait for your next codex" to which the end result was...subpar and unsatisfactory at best.

So at least for me, and I believe for some others, the problem right now isn't "the previews aren't anything crazy powerful awesome yet, so the codex must suck" and more "GW has previewed nothing yet that excited me. Please don't let this continue to be the level at which our codex will sit upon release."


TLDR: I understand there is a level of pessimism that goes too far, but some of us remember actually getting emotionally punched in the gut by decisions, rather than just not having the shiniest toys.

So I have a question for everyone who's upset about Lelith's statline and rules...
What would you have liked to have seen instead? Not just "something better", but what actual concrete ruleset would you have preferred to see?

And please, be at least somewhat realistic because the monday-morning wishlisting we've gotten into now is goddamn ludicrous. "Always 10+ attacks, re-roll everything, damage 2, and also ignore invulns, and every hit should be a mortal wound, and Kevin Rountree personally gives me fifty bucks every time I bring her, and..." Like, come on. She's ~80 points.
Look at other 9e characters and tell me what kinda Lelith you would've liked to see that actually fits somewhere in the game's current design sensibilities and power curve.

Ubernoob1 wrote:

GreyArea wrote:

Either way, at least we might see some new Drukhari rules in this campaign book preview.

Let's hope its something a bit more inspiring than sidegrading our splinter cannons and acting like its a revolutionary gift from the gods XD

I know this is several pages back but I just wanted to reply to this:

While I obviously hope we get all kinds of neat and tasty things with supplements and our codex, for anyone who is struggling to understand where most of the negativity around Dark Eldar stems from, I still remember back in 7th edition where they released an Apoc Campign book with Dark Eldar, Craftworld Eldar, and Tyranids. The story was neat, and has since CONTINUED into our codecies as this was the event where the Dark Eldar teleported an entire planet full of tyranid through the webway and into the skies of Commoragh.

Now, as awesome as that bit of storyline is: Dark Eldar were literally the only reason that battle was an Eldar victory. We got a few apocalypses formations from it, but there were a few things the other two got that we did not.

Now if that was all, it'd be unfortunate but fine. No, what I can't seem to forget is that about 3 months after this campaign book released, the Dark Eldar 7th edition codex landed and completely rewrote the rules on Power from Pain, and thereby made a good half of the formations we got useless as they specifically interacted with pain tokens from the 5th edition codex.

Oh, and when the Ynnari were first released and they came with their big formation-detachment that could combine all of the eldar, including all of the 7th editions formations they came with? Well...the only formations Dark Eldar had were a single from the codex, and then the haemonculus coven supplement. Which of course, coven couldn't be Ynnari back then either. But luckily for us, we were granted the right to include a formation that increased the effective turn for PfP by 1 for units in the formation.

...except for the part where by joining the ynnari detachment, dark eldar lost their power from pain rule...

Also, I still remember when we were straight lied to during the previews to the very start of 8th edition. The Drukhari previews specifically mentioned the wych's new ability to hold down units, and even mentioned the Tau Crisis battlesuits they had previewed earlier, including the 8e fly rules, would make excellent targets for this tarpit ability.

...except for the part where wyches can only use that ability on infantry, and Crisis suits do not have the infantry keyword...

Oh and while I agree that we cannot know everything until the book is fully released, we have also gone through at least one period of "don't worry, just wait for your next codex" to which the end result was...subpar and unsatisfactory at best.

So at least for me, and I believe for some others, the problem right now isn't "the previews aren't anything crazy powerful awesome yet, so the codex must suck" and more "GW has previewed nothing yet that excited me. Please don't let this continue to be the level at which our codex will sit upon release."


TLDR: I understand there is a level of pessimism that goes too far, but some of us remember actually getting emotionally punched in the gut by decisions, rather than just not having the shiniest toys.

I get it dude. With the exception of incubi and draz the previews haven't wowed me either. I'm also concerned that they will make some big slip ups as you describe and fail to address some of the core issues we have in our current book.

That said I'm also not emotionally scarred as I only came back to the game at the very end of 7th so didn't experience what came before.
I'm not completely sure if you were referring to the 8th edition book when you described a past codex as "subpar and unsatisfactory at best". If so, I disagree, we were one of the best armies on its release and in a rare example of longevity stayed competitive despite the release of other books (until the madness that was the second SM codex of 8th).

With the massive jump in survivability of marines and DG I agree we need an exceptional book to compete this time round. My biased towards optimism comes partly from just who I am but also from looking how necrons book turned out. They got lots of strong and flavorful rules and if we get a similar treatment we could be in a good spot. I just don't want to continue to be relegated to being a aim to win on movement army that can't kill anything in the meta. That strikes me as very unDE.

mynamelegend wrote:

So I have a question for everyone who's upset about Lelith's statline and rules...
What would you have liked to have seen instead? Not just "something better", but what actual concrete ruleset would you have preferred to see?

And please, be at least somewhat realistic because the monday-morning wishlisting we've gotten into now is goddamn ludicrous. "Always 10+ attacks, re-roll everything, damage 2, and also ignore invulns, and every hit should be a mortal wound, and Kevin Rountree personally gives me fifty bucks every time I bring her, and..." Like, come on. She's ~80 points.
Look at other 9e characters and tell me what kinda Lelith you would've liked to see that actually fits somewhere in the game's current design sensibilities and power curve.

You know i can easily reverse the question to you that see everything as positive:
From everything we know so far (which admittedly isn't much) and taking into account the released 9th edition codexes that all have more or less big WOW sections. What do you think will make us able to compete in this environment and will make our opponents fear us... I dare you name ONE thing that you think makes us really strong.

mynamelegend wrote:

So I have a question for everyone who's upset about Lelith's statline and rules...
What would you have liked to have seen instead? Not just "something better", but what actual concrete ruleset would you have preferred to see?

And please, be at least somewhat realistic because the monday-morning wishlisting we've gotten into now is goddamn ludicrous. "Always 10+ attacks, re-roll everything, damage 2, and also ignore invulns, and every hit should be a mortal wound, and Kevin Rountree personally gives me fifty bucks every time I bring her, and..." Like, come on. She's ~80 points.
Look at other 9e characters and tell me what kinda Lelith you would've liked to see that actually fits somewhere in the game's current design sensibilities and power curve.

A mechanic like having a lot of attack and at the beginning of the cc phase, you can substract attacks to negate opponent's attack. To a minimum 1 of course.

A no-retreat rule that either allow her to strike fleeing units or just follow them to stay in close combat.

A taunting ability to force a character to assault her, or can't assault anuthing else.

a rule stating she always strike first.

DevilDoll wrote:

mynamelegend wrote:

So I have a question for everyone who's upset about Lelith's statline and rules...
What would you have liked to have seen instead? Not just "something better", but what actual concrete ruleset would you have preferred to see?

And please, be at least somewhat realistic because the monday-morning wishlisting we've gotten into now is goddamn ludicrous. "Always 10+ attacks, re-roll everything, damage 2, and also ignore invulns, and every hit should be a mortal wound, and Kevin Rountree personally gives me fifty bucks every time I bring her, and..." Like, come on. She's ~80 points.
Look at other 9e characters and tell me what kinda Lelith you would've liked to see that actually fits somewhere in the game's current design sensibilities and power curve.

You know i can easily reverse the question to you that see everything as positive:
From everything we know so far (which admittedly isn't much) and taking into account the released 9th edition codexes that all have more or less big WOW sections. What do you think will make us able to compete in this environment and will make our opponents fear us... I dare you name ONE thing that you think makes us really strong.

I dont know about really strong, but lets go through the reveals so far. Before we do, its important to remember that we are not comparing with how we were in 8th. 9th didnt drop and this is our rules a week later. We have been playing 9th with the old codex for a year now. So its not "can our new units kill 2 wound marines better than our old units could kill 1 wound marines" its "can our new units kill 2 wound marines better than our old units could kill 2 wound marines".

Drahzar and Incubi got better. No one is disputing that. So thats a +

Kabalites got a better save (yes!) and another melee attack (um... sure?).
Their wargear remained the same (boo! SRs were struggling with the increased saves in 9th already!) except for the splinter cannon, which went Heavy 3 (uh, mixed I guess? Bad for kabalites, but if it had stayed rapid fire, would it have been given...) AP -1 (nice, not great, but nice) and D2 (ok, so its a marine killer at max range, rather than a marine killer at mid range. Sort of. Maybe). And the Dark Lance, which stayed the same, except for the damage, which became 3+D3 (holy crap thats nice). So Kabalites got a general upgrade. Not an amazing one, but they are better than where they were before the codex.

Venoms got an extra attack too (O...K?). We know nothing else about them. If they are assault vehicles, great. If they got one extra space, great. If they got neither, then I guess its not really an upgrade, but its also not a downgrade.

And now Lelith, which, as I outlined, comparing like for like (we cant say she lots attacks from her hair, her hair is not on the bit they revealed, but is still barbed on the model - we cannot say she lost the character killing option, we havnt seen if they remove that yet), she is better or the same in nearly every respect, the exception being the loss of 1 AP. Again, its not about how she used to dice in 8th, its about how shes currently dicing in 9th. She is now better than she was.

So yeah, its not making me jump for job, but I should be able to kill (especially with DLs) a few more of my friends models each turn (AdMech/CSM/Demons/Thousand Sons/Tau) in pretty much all phases.

Which brings us back to us being competitive. We are, by all accounts, doing well in tournaments already. Those that have been going ahead at least. The trick, as many IN THIS THREAD have pointed out to me, is that we do so by effectively ignoring the other team, and focusing the objectives.

For me, thats not fun, but none of what we have seen makes that play any weaker. The save on the Kabalites actually makes it stronger.

What I want out of the codex is more killing of my friends armies. Especially as none of us (me and my friends) are liking the objective focus of 9th, and will be moving to either narrative play or the module that makes it more about killing (Eternal War Mission pack?).

So yeah, nothing spectacular, but I will take an increase in killing power, however minor.

amishprn86 wrote:

All Wyches for like 18yrs could Run and Charge. so... that.

Not just Wyches.

Unless I'm mistaken, every non-Coven DE unit could run and charge.

mynamelegend wrote:

So I have a question for everyone who's upset about Lelith's statline and rules...
What would you have liked to have seen instead? Not just "something better", but what actual concrete ruleset would you have preferred to see?

Personally, I'd like to see her put on a show:

So, Lelith always strikes first. After rolling to hit (but before rolling to wound) she can convert any hits of 3+ into automatic saves for this round of combat. Any dice not used are lost at the end of the round.

For example, she rolls 7 attacks and gets 6 hits. She decides to take 3 of those hits (that rolled 3+) and sets them aside. She rolls the remaining 3 dice to wound, wounds twice, and her opponent saves 1 (with an invulnerable 4+)

Then her opponent attacks, rolls 4 dice, hits with all 4, wounds with all 4. Lelith automatically saves 3 times (the dice she set aside), and rolls for the 4th wound. She gets a 3+ and saves again.

Also, you cannot fall back from combat with Lelith unless you roll higher on a D3 than she does on a D6. If you fail, the point is still lost.

Just an idea, off the top of my head

GreyArea wrote:

My biased towards optimism comes partly from just who I am but also from looking how necrons book turned out.

That's precisely the trouble. Many people are basing their expectations on what they did for the Necrons (and to be fair, they needed it!), but we won't get the same treatment, and if you expect it you will only be terribly disappointed.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Speaking of her statline, I notice that (at least in terms of base stats) DE haven't gotten any faster.

I guess Lelith herself can at least Advance and still Charge now but given that this is a special rule almost certainly unique to her I doubt we'll be seeing it anywhere else.

Would be nice if we weren't worse than the other eldar factions even at the thing we're supposed to excel at, but I guess that's just asking too much of GW.

What do you mean? Our blisteringly fastTM raiders are, ok, they are two inches slower than wave serpents, but we got a kabal for that

And our strikingly fast wyches... can't advance and charge BUT we got a cult for that

And our planes may not be able to do 180s infornt of the opponent, BUUUUUUUT damn they are fast
A hole 6" extra movement speed. For a worse save and worse bs than craftworld flyers.

Barking Agatha wrote:

if you expect it you will only be terribly disappointed.

They should just print this on the cover of our codex and be done with it.

mynamelegend wrote:

So I have a question for everyone who's upset about Lelith's statline and rules...
What would you have liked to have seen instead? Not just "something better", but what actual concrete ruleset would you have preferred to see?

Something that isn't just "Drazhar, but a lot worse". He is better than her in every single way except that he can't fall back and charge (unless we spend 2 CP). He's better at clearing chaff, he's better at killing characters, he's harder to kill, and he can attack twice even if he starts his turn on a transport.

I can't see a single reason to be optimistic about her. She's bad. The issue isn't that she's not as strong as I'd like, the issue is she's bad.

If you're playing a Primaris army, just use her as area denial in case they have deep strike or eradicators in strategic reserves. She offers so very little in this matchup otherwise that you'll wish you had taken something else.

If you're satisfied with using a special character as an expensive court model, have a blast.

I'd prefer one that is someway, somehow a legitimate threat. She is not with what we know so far. Her use is extremely specific and nobody was wondering "How am I ever going to kill 7 to 8 guardsmen a turn?!" She solves a problem we don't have.

Sekac is dead on. The only possible hope we have is that we do not know all the rules yet. People are saying "It is an improvement! stop complaining!" but in reality, it is a foreshadowing of the codex to come.

IF lelith is our supreme commander, should she not be as powerful as the Silent King? As Mortarian? As Gulliman?

The stat line alone is so unimpressive and uninspiring it just sucks the hope right out of you, not only for her, but for the direction our entire codex seems to be headed.

Zero thought.
Zero effort.
Exactly what most of us had feared.

Hope is not gone.. but it seems to be dwindling.

I am still not sure she will be the supreme commander for us. I dont know who will be. I dont know if we will get one, despite what they said (wouldnt be the first time they said something and forgot we are an army).

Shes not as good as Drazhar. But she is less expensive. I dont know about anyone else, but I am struggling to build 2000 pt armies of a reasonable size. If I wanted a character, I would be looking for a cheap one. Shes it. It used to be that Drazhar was it. They swapped.

albions-angel wrote:

I am still not sure she will be the supreme commander for us. I dont know who will be. I dont know if we will get one, despite what they said (wouldnt be the first time they said something and forgot we are an army).

Shes not as good as Drazhar. But she is less expensive. I dont know about anyone else, but I am struggling to build 2000 pt armies of a reasonable size. If I wanted a character, I would be looking for a cheap one. Shes it. It used to be that Drazhar was it. They swapped.

i have a feeling , call it a fools hope, that we will get Vect with the Campaign book...
Not sure how that will works exactly but isnt it something like psychic aweakening or am i completely wrong here?

albions-angel wrote:

I am still not sure she will be the supreme commander for us. I dont know who will be. I dont know if we will get one, despite what they said (wouldnt be the first time they said something and forgot we are an army).

Shes not as good as Drazhar. But she is less expensive. I dont know about anyone else, but I am struggling to build 2000 pt armies of a reasonable size. If I wanted a character, I would be looking for a cheap one. Shes it. It used to be that Drazhar was it. They swapped.

Take a generic succubus for a cheap HQ. If you're paying just to fill a slot, pay less for the dead weight.

sekac wrote:

albions-angel wrote:

I am still not sure she will be the supreme commander for us. I dont know who will be. I dont know if we will get one, despite what they said (wouldnt be the first time they said something and forgot we are an army).

Shes not as good as Drazhar. But she is less expensive. I dont know about anyone else, but I am struggling to build 2000 pt armies of a reasonable size. If I wanted a character, I would be looking for a cheap one. Shes it. It used to be that Drazhar was it. They swapped.

Take a generic succubus for a cheap HQ. If you're paying just to fill a slot, pay less for the dead weight.

1. I might want a character (personally, I probably wont)
2. The succi might be so much of a downgrade on Lelith, at not a great point reduction, that Lelith is better bang for my buck.

We don’t know all the rules and different players will have different expectations.

If she keeps the re rolls vs characters it will be useful and we don’t yet know the cult special rules either as yet. I think it’s likely she will keep her 3++. The jury is out. What I liked the most about the reveal was the choice of the two special rules.

What should Lelith be able to do? Should she one shot a Primaris Captain for example? Or should she one shot an average HQ? Is it ok that if she keeps the re rolls she would still kill the Primaris Captain...but it would take two rounds. Or do you think she should just one shot everything?