What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th

NiteOwl wrote:

And when you charge other stuff like infantery you will get overwatched. That could kill some of your wyches, if they hit. After all, it is a 6 that they need to hit you , not that likely. If you are 8'' from the enemy you are charging and if you have PGL you get a 6+ cover save. If you have FnP it is a 5+ save instead. And now, you can shoot before you charge in. One thing that you never did before (see the old Fleet). So with 10 wyches you could get 9 splinter shots and one blaster shot before you join combat. You get the chance to kill some of the enemys models before he get to overwatch. Seems like everyone is forgetting that.

Yes, plus how to use plasma grenades in shooting. I am sorry I am always looking at my own list if I write something or think something, but here it goes...

So my 9 wyches have standard CCW and splinter pistol, another has hydra gauntlets (110 points minimal with no hekatrix, agonizer or haywire grenades). So 9 shoot, but the last one could not shoot with her CC weapons only, but the rules state that 'one model can throw a grenade', so... that's what she'll do instead!

That should hurt some!

Just don't kill too much or you'll be out of charge range.

One thing I thought got better are the forgeworld units ironically.
Since the buff to Haywire is huge the Reaper's Storm Vortex projector could take out a good variety of tanks if it gets lucky on the D3 roll. Idk how often killing units with multiple wounds is a problem but instant death vs anything with armor value 3 could make for a good character killer.

Also with the immediate likelihood of terminator spam it seems like the best time to take your Tantalus out of its display case, what with it naturally packing the equivalent of 4 disintegrator cannons.
Actually, now I'm obsessed with the idea of full fleet of Ravagers and a Court of the Archon with a Tantalus for some real marine killing firepower (what can I say, I like underdogs).
Even if the edition changes aren't enough to make the court more viable it still seems like something that'd be fun to try and crazy enough to work.

-Z

NiteOwl wrote:

If you are 8'' from the enemy you are charging and if you have PGL you get a 6+ cover save. If you have FnP it is a 5+ save instead.
[...]
And who was using FnP in combat? Why would you do that when you have 4+ doge?

I agree with your general point, but what's all this about 'instead'? Your remarks make it sound like you only get one or the other, rather than both. Before wyches had a 4+ dodge and 4+ FNP (with pain token). Now it's 4+ and 5+. That's straightforwardly worse, except that you can now use FNP against power weapons/AP1-2.

Ben_S wrote:

NiteOwl wrote:

If you are 8'' from the enemy you are charging and if you have PGL you get a 6+ cover save. If you have FnP it is a 5+ save instead.
[...]
And who was using FnP in combat? Why would you do that when you have 4+ doge?

I agree with your general point, but what's all this about 'instead'? Your remarks make it sound like you only get one or the other, rather than both. Before wyches had a 4+ dodge and 4+ FNP (with pain token). Now it's 4+ and 5+. That's straightforwardly worse, except that you can now use FNP against power weapons/AP1-2.

Oh I am sorry. I mean that either you will have 6+ cover from the defensive grenades, or you will have a pain token which will give you a 5+ save against most stuff. You are correct, of course you have both saves. My point was that you can only use one

Yes it is worse, our 4+ FnP is now a 5+ FnP, but that is nothing we can change. We just have to handle it
But in combat the doge save wins any day. Because the invulnerable save will not disappear against ID weapons

@Zaid

Yeah, Reaper is actually really nasty now. D3 haywire hits (plus a s7 hit, which is still enough to cause atleast a glance on AV13 or less) has a chanse of wrecking most tanks with a single shot. It still suffers from only having one gun, but it's certainly a lot more viable now than it used to be. Bonus points for working against Land Raider I Win (it might ignore lances and get -1 to all damage results, but it will still die once it loses its hull points).

NiteOwl wrote:

Ben_S wrote:

NiteOwl wrote:

If you are 8'' from the enemy you are charging and if you have PGL you get a 6+ cover save. If you have FnP it is a 5+ save instead.
[...]
And who was using FnP in combat? Why would you do that when you have 4+ doge?

I agree with your general point, but what's all this about 'instead'? Your remarks make it sound like you only get one or the other, rather than both. Before wyches had a 4+ dodge and 4+ FNP (with pain token). Now it's 4+ and 5+. That's straightforwardly worse, except that you can now use FNP against power weapons/AP1-2.

Oh I am sorry. I mean that either you will have 6+ cover from the defensive grenades, or you will have a pain token which will give you a 5+ save against most stuff. You are correct, of course you have both saves. My point was that you can only use one

But my point was that you can have a save plus FNP. (At least, this was the case in 5th and, I assume, in 6th or it is a huge nerf that no one's commented on.)

The dodge is an invulnerable save, so you can't have that and the 6+ for your wychesuit. But FNP is not a save as such - it applies only to unsaved wounds.

So, in 5th, wyches (in hth, with a pain token) would get 4+ dodge and then 4+ FNP. Now they get 4+ dodge and then 5+ FNP.

Inrit makes an excellent point: You'll have to be very aware because - your shooting at his unit will reduce the nearest models, and his shooting to your unit (overwatch) will reduce nearest models.

This could VERY easily put you out of charge range.

Stupid ruleset

I think its far better to run small haywire squads and double tap those vehicles with glances. Focus 1 Darklance on that vehicle (or 2/3 or it has 4 hull points) in the shooting to ensure its death...

Ben_S wrote:

But my point was that you can have a save plus FNP. (At least, this was the case in 5th and, I assume, in 6th or it is a huge nerf that no one's commented on.)

The dodge is an invulnerable save, so you can't have that and the 6+ for your wychesuit. But FNP is not a save as such - it applies only to unsaved wounds.

So, in 5th, wyches (in hth, with a pain token) would get 4+ dodge and then 4+ FNP. Now they get 4+ dodge and then 5+ FNP.

I hope you're not complaining? Answers how to kill those termies for instance. The 4+ invulnerable wych combat is a good one! As this army is oh so fragile, I don't think it will hurt us as much as it would others.

Stunclaws might see more use, as you're going to want to pull that HQ-with-artificer-armor out into the open where you can light him up with darklight weapons or massed splinter-fire.

Ben_S wrote:

NiteOwl wrote:

Ben_S wrote:

NiteOwl wrote:

If you are 8'' from the enemy you are charging and if you have PGL you get a 6+ cover save. If you have FnP it is a 5+ save instead.
[...]
And who was using FnP in combat? Why would you do that when you have 4+ doge?

I agree with your general point, but what's all this about 'instead'? Your remarks make it sound like you only get one or the other, rather than both. Before wyches had a 4+ dodge and 4+ FNP (with pain token). Now it's 4+ and 5+. That's straightforwardly worse, except that you can now use FNP against power weapons/AP1-2.

Oh I am sorry. I mean that either you will have 6+ cover from the defensive grenades, or you will have a pain token which will give you a 5+ save against most stuff. You are correct, of course you have both saves. My point was that you can only use one

But my point was that you can have a save plus FNP. (At least, this was the case in 5th and, I assume, in 6th or it is a huge nerf that no one's commented on.)

The dodge is an invulnerable save, so you can't have that and the 6+ for your wychesuit. But FNP is not a save as such - it applies only to unsaved wounds.

So, in 5th, wyches (in hth, with a pain token) would get 4+ dodge and then 4+ FNP. Now they get 4+ dodge and then 5+ FNP.

Wait a second, do you say that you can use both saves at the same time? Like if I fail the first I can roll the other one? You will have to excuse me, I am bit confused

Feel No Pain is taken after you fail a armour, invulnerable or cover save, so yes if you have FnP you get two saves.

B.

NiteOwl wrote:

Wait a second, do you say that you can use both saves at the same time? Like if I fail the first I can roll the other one? You will have to excuse me, I am bit confused

FnP is NOT a save. It's applied to UNSAVED wounds. So you take one of your armour, invul or cover save (is you have any) and, if you fail the save, you could make a FnP attempt. In 5th ed you nullify the unsaved wound with a 4+, now it's 5+

G

NiteOwl wrote:

Wait a second, do you say that you can use both saves at the same time? Like if I fail the first I can roll the other one? You will have to excuse me, I am bit confused

That's what I'm saying. It's possible that I'm the one who's wrong, but my understanding has always been one save (either armour, invulnerable [dodge] or cover) plus a FNP roll. Otherwise FNP would confer no advantage on anyone in power armour. So in this respect, Wyches are indeed worse - but I still think they're perfectly viable. As I said elsewhere, HWGs will mince vehicles...

Garion wrote:

NiteOwl wrote:

Wait a second, do you say that you can use both saves at the same time? Like if I fail the first I can roll the other one? You will have to excuse me, I am bit confused

FnP is NOT a save. It's applied to UNSAVED wounds. So you take one of your armour, invul or cover save (is you have any) and, if you fail the save, you could make a FnP attempt. In 5th ed you nullify the unsaved wound with a 4+, now it's 5+

G

Aha, now I understand. Sorry for being slow, I didn't know Stupid me have been playing it wrong, my wyches could have survived a little more....

And yes, the change is bad for us, but as I said before. We can't change that, we have to live with it and come around it in some other way

There is something that's nagging me about Beast and assault.

The general consensus it that they ignore difficoult terrains and so could charge trough one with no malus to their Initiative.

What's it's troubling me is the wording of the rules (please keep in mind that I'm translating from Italian to English so the wording I use here could not be the same as the ones on your books).

Under "Types of units" they say that Beasts "are not slowed down by difficoult terrains (even when they charge)"

The rules of the assault phase state that "if at least one models of the unit has gone through a difficoult terrain" all the models are reduced to I1

Not being slowed down it's not the same thing as not going trough so ...

What do you think?

G

NiteOwl wrote:

Aha, now I understand. Sorry for being slow, I didn't know Stupid me have been playing it wrong, my wyches could have survived a little more....

And yes, the change is bad for us, but as I said before. We can't change that, we have to live with it and come around it in some other way

Well, your Wyches just got more survivable than how you had been playing!

Garion wrote:

There is something that's nagging me about Beast and assault.

The general consensus it that they ignore difficoult terrains and so could charge trough one with no malus to their Initiative.

I didn't think that was the consensus. Some have hopefully suggested that, but I think you're right to say that it's not correct. I suppose one could argue that striking at I1 is being slowed (in terms of strike order, rather than movement), but I think Beasts through cover is I1 unless FAQ-d otherwise.

Hi!

Just getting started so I'm reading this thread for some inspiration. As many of you, I'm bummed about the WWP changes since such army really appealed to me. I realize it will take some time before we know what will work or not during the meta game, but it seems like people expect to see lots of Terminators. I wonder; shouldn't Grotesques be a reasonable counter to Termies? They're quite cheap for their resilience (sporting 3W), they now get FNP saves, they're immune to S8 Insta-death, and with liquifiers / loads of S5 Attacks they should stand reasonable chances of racking up a few kills as well.

Setomidor wrote:

I realize it will take some time before we know what will work or not during the meta game, but it seems like people expect to see lots of Terminators. I wonder; shouldn't Grotesques be a reasonable counter to Termies? They're quite cheap for their resilience (sporting 3W), they now get FNP saves, they're immune to S8 Insta-death, and with liquifiers / loads of S5 Attacks they should stand reasonable chances of racking up a few kills as well.

Well, while the high strength might seem appealing you will not negate any saves. If you want to kill termies in CC, you should do it with a talosi. D6(rerollabel)+2 +S7 (S8 if you have 2 pain tokens) AP2 on the charge. You can also have a TW heat lance on the talosi, to wreck any land raider that might carry the termies.

You are correct, any unit that moves through difficult terrain without assault grenades will be initiative 1. Yes, beasts will be initiative 1 if they charge through cover without grenades.

If this was 5th edition then, yes, they would get to fight at initiative but that is not true now.

Beasts get to go 12" and are not slowed down.
Move through cover for them means they pass all dangerous terrain tests in the movement phase.
They are not slowed down when charging so they get a 2d6" charge with a re-roll of 1 or both dice for fleet of claw.

So putting the Baron in with them is even more enticing not only for giving them all assault grenades but anyone they charge they will have stealth against overwatch.

@NiteOwl; Yeah, talos would make good sense for CC.

Starting up I'm now most interested in filling my Troop choices. What do you think about Warriors in 6:th edition? I'm not sure if the gunboat approach will be popular in 6th edition or not, but would it be immensely stupid to bring a unit of 20 Warriors with 2 Splinter Cannons? At only 200 pts that unit should put out a torrent of shots either stationary or on the move, especially since the SC can either be fired in Heavy or Assault mode. Overwatch should also be... fun.

I am thinking blasterborn are even better now. Move the venom forward 6, move them six, shot the blasters at one target and assault another with haywire you could blow up two tanks a turn.
You could do something like it with a unit of wyches with a blast pistol in a raider. Just move six, then move six with the wyches, shoot the raiders darklance the blast pistol and throw a haywire. You stand a chance of being able to blow up one in the shooting phase then assault another and wreck it too.

Setomidor wrote:

Starting up I'm now most interested in filling my Troop choices. What do you think about Warriors in 6:th edition? I'm not sure if the gunboat approach will be popular in 6th edition or not, but would it be immensely stupid to bring a unit of 20 Warriors with 2 Splinter Cannons? At only 200 pts that unit should put out a torrent of shots either stationary or on the move, especially since the SC can either be fired in Heavy or Assault mode. Overwatch should also be... fun.

I think that warriors are great in 6th. Now you can move and fire up to 24 inch, very good They are alot more mobile now I think that a raider with splinter racks packed with warriors will be good. But of course I will have to try them out on some realspace inhabitants first A big blob? Hmm that could be interesting. If you give the sybarite a PGL they will be pretty decent for holding objectives. Maybe you should deploy them trough a WWP, just run out and shoot whatever there is and then they will be able to reach almost anywhere (depending on where you have your portal). Could be a really good finisher in the later game
Personally I would go with gunboats, your threat range is 36 inch and you have the additonal (protection ) of the raider. In the boat you can get into position fast and you can zoom in on objectives in the last 2 turns. The splinter racks will help you alot when moving 12 inch with the raider.
But I think that you should try that big blob and see how it goes It could be great! Just remember that you are T3 with an 5+ armour save, not a marine

I like the idea of Kabalite Deathblob, ie. 20 Warriors with allied Eldrad/Farseer and maybe a Haemonculus too. The Farseer needs to be on board to use the new powers (they need los and most can't be used from vehicles. RAW he can't enter our vehicles anyway), so you want something to stick him in. Warriors are one of the few of out units that can contribute to the game even when sitting on an objective (alternative would be to give the Farseer a jebike and have him join Reavers. Won't work with Eldrad tho). There's a few Farseer powers that make the Warriors quite nasty (with luck you can get 4++ saves with counter charge and overwatch at their own bs. Hell, Eldrad getting 4 out of 6 powers, tha isn't even that unlikely). Charging a unit that fires ocer 40 poisoned shots at bs4 at you face, then hits before you with 40 attacks (even if they're only s3) gives anybody pause, especially since with PLG they lose the benefit of charging. Cover shouldn't be that big issue; ruins aren't exactly uncommon on most tables, there's the aformentioned 4++ psychic power, Another divination power lets you roll 3D6 and pick what you want when determining the type of a forest (increasing chanses of getting the one that gices you 3+ cover), or you can just spend 50 points and buy Aegis defence line terrain (gives 4+ cover).

Liking the ideas for the 6th edition I've seen in here. Think of keeping my army shooty and mobile, mabye using my wyches as tank killers and some beasts to harrass from the back. Its a shame that WWPs and Mandrakes are still a pile of ***, but with a few razorwings and a lot of skimmers it will be more about keeping out of the way and peeling the termies appart from range.