What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th

Yes, that's my understanding of it, although theres a thread where someone says otherwise, I havnt read anything like that so far.

Enfernux wrote:

get a farseer and GJB for support if you want psy powers. Eldar are good for denying primary and winning or drawing secondary.
Masters of Stealth is not a conferable special rule, so haemi and farseer wont get stealth. If you are babysitting then they are...ok i guess.

Actually, they would get stealth (since the rule states Rangers have stealth USR conferred to them by their special rule, and if one model has it, all models in the unit get it). They wouldn't get +2 to cover tho (since Pathfinders don't have the shrouded USR, they just get an additional +1 to their cover, which is not conferred to any other models).

@Nomic yeah, had tor read that
allies: you can take allies at 500 pts to, so 1 hq 2 troop, 1hq 1 troop minimum, they are an addition

Poor Moodles!

The guy has only played a couple of games of 40k and is a self confessed new player: cut the guy a bit of slack - he's clearly doing something well if he's actually won a game or two! Frankly I'd have expected a better reception from you guys to a new forum member other than sarcasm and putting down his ideas straight off the bat - even if some of his ideas are a bit far fetched.

As for playing less than 2k that is down to him as a player - frankly my preferred style of game system is the bigger the better: it really begins to feel like the battle you are playing out actually has some relevance to 40k universe rather than some tournament point optimised list.

For those who talk about mandrakes and pain tokens - Moodles doesn't state that he requires 'infiltrating the IC' into his unit: you can have a haemi in Raider (with WWP if you're interested in experimenting about its viability) and move it forward, drop him out and have him move and join a unit of mandrakes that are sat 12" outside your deployment zone (preferably hiding most of the unit in some solid cover like ruins), then in the shooting phase you can drop the WWP (which depending on your rule interpretation: could provide cover to the haemie and 1 mandrake who are sat outside the Ruins - thus meaning the haemie doesn't have to roll for entering cover) and finally get a round of Assault 2 Str4 AP5 Pinning shots - which can be alright (not game winning, but not bad either!).

Anyway, rant over - I do think a couple of you owe him a sorry for being so harsh! But of course that is your own prerogative... 6th is still new and just because theoryhammer says something does not work does not mean that in the grand complexity of an actual game, something can't surprise you.

^ Well said, as I mentioned when I started this thread, I'd like it to be positive and investigate options of how to use things in 6th, not moan about how they can't be used anymore.

Moodles has actually played a couple of games and is giving us a brief on the result, which I for one am grateful for as I've not got a game in with the new rules yet.

I also am very new, but the unit that I have enjoyed the most is a unit of nine jetbike with three cluster calatrops and three heatlances. I add in a doom farseer on a jetbike with singing spear and kill thinks. I'm not sure how it would to at comp levels, but with my friend it's amazing, and loads of fun to use.

@beans & TBE: well then i hope your optimism winst tourneys
@beans: ok 1 hq 2 troops, 1 heavy 1 fast 1 elite ig and im 6k+.
@beans: that is overrisk even for DE...haems joining mands in the middle of combat dont ride on my words, for 5-7 rounds is combat
@beans: i ow noone an apology for reading 6th rules and watching batreps more than anyone on this forum and knowing a lot of the rules without a book.
@beans: if its new, dont you think making "minor" mistakes is acceptable, while going over what there is of use to us is a way to fail?
@TBE: meta can change what is viable and what isnt.
@TBE: i have played 28 so far and have lost 10 out of 12 DE matches, in comparison to my 95 win for 98 match 5th. Experimentation, true, but 10 for 12 is a lot. Have you done the same in 1 weak? Without a rulebook of your own and knowing the rules better than your opponents? I think not. Positive? Assault for DE is dead. Shooty stands. Most is AP5? well darn.
@ TBE so as i played more, are my ideas more viable??? I hope you get me

@Nomic ah, yeah, but they would only get a +1 sadly

Let's get back to focusing on what we can do better rather than resorting to having a urinating contest over who is the ultimate 5th edition general. Personal attacks will not make any of us better DE players.
It will probably take us more time to adjust to the new rules by virtue of the finesse nature of our army. Let's get back to talking about what works and how we can adapt.

knowing what you arent, helps you know what you are. I am not a shooter based player. Assault for us is a dead end. I cant be positive about this, sry, but ESE, you are right...just there are those things, that are "viable" and there are things, athat ARE viable.

In that light, what do you believe IS viable that we can do? I believe that this thread is looking for people to contribute new ideas/tactics rather than simply lamenting what is no longer viable from 5th.

now that you ask:
archon: to expensive for its worth even with ONE blaster
succu: same
haem: cheap warlord, fnp is is down
named: lelith is "good" vs termies, vect is usable vs MEQ+, baron is for hellion troops, now the "best" we have, rakarth is waisted, drazhar goes with incu, but expensive, malys no, sliscus usable for 3+ instead of 4+ for ONE unite, decap: no
incu: good vs meq+
bb: good to tarpit, assault for us is bad overal
tureborn: static shooting
grots: soalk up dmg
wracks: no
mandrakes: no
warriors: gunboat is "better", but needs extra points to be used, blob is more reasonable
wyches: AT, nothing more, nothing less
scourges: glances kill vehicles, can kill IG vets and worse
RJB: fun but not worth it
hellions: as troops max
beasts masters: want them to be troops, but they are good in vound allocation
ravagers: cheapest lances
talos: no
cronos: no
void: flyer, thats a por and a con
rwjf: flyer, ^

wwp: forget it

what i think viable: baron list with hellions, warriors in gunboats, forget elite slots, one ravager, one voidraven, 1 rwjf, use beastmasters, forget hq unless the minimum 1 baron.
lelith is fun, but is hard to get her benefits of no AS. Shoot, shoot, shoot. Thats viable.

Enfernux wrote:

now that you ask:

I will provide my opinions based on your 'suggestions'

Enfernux wrote:

archon: to expensive for its worth even with ONE blaster

How so? Nothing has changed here and infact thanks to HP its actually more effective. He can get AP2 CCW and a 2++ save... how is he not worth it again?

Enfernux wrote:

succu: same

I tend to agree with this - the succubus suffers mainly from lack of options but thats the same case as 5th ed

Enfernux wrote:

haem: cheap warlord, fnp is is down

FNP is a mixed bag - we get it in more situations but with less potency. I would suggest it affects the other forces in 40k more than us.

Enfernux wrote:

named: lelith is "good" vs termies, vect is usable vs MEQ+, baron is for hellion troops, now the "best" we have, rakarth is waisted, drazhar goes with incu, but expensive, malys no, sliscus usable for 3+ instead of 4+ for ONE unite, decap: no

OK... big breath... Lelith is now probably worth her points so we agree here. Vect is still mental and even though he can't smash TEQ thanks to PE everyone he is still very viable. Seize is even more important now thanks to the new reserve rules. Hellions are far from the best troops we have but the baron still has a place thanks to the +1 to go first. I always found him medicore myself. Rakarth was always over priced but thanks to his regen and clonefield, dropping him in a unit of Grots and challenging the big nasty character in combat will ensure the grots wreck face. Draz should never charge in with a unit - always solo IMO but is now worth his price tag. Malys is the bomb for anti psyker duties and the redeploy is golden - good for her price. Slsicus got better with this edition thanks to the buffs on raider squads shooting and his weapons ignoring armour on a 5+. Decapitator... well, nothing new to see here

Enfernux wrote:

incu: good vs meq+

You just said vect was rubbish vs MEQ+ (which i read as TEQ) so how are incubi good here??? Incubi should never have been charging termies in 5th ed so i fail to see whats changed for 6th

Enfernux wrote:

bb: good to tarpit, assault for us is bad overal

You get to shoot before you charge (along side throwing a grenade) so that can mitigate overwatch... and we get our full BS unlike the intended victim

Enfernux wrote:

tureborn: static shooting

I like lanceborn but blasterborn are still more than useful - so why are they static again?!?

Enfernux wrote:

grots: soalk up dmg

And dish it out. With a pair of haemy or just rakarth this unit is scary. T5 and 3W means we will almost always get FNP and with S6 or even 7 they can wreck face and take it back no worries. combined with the changes to fearless they can now tarpit very well

Enfernux wrote:

wracks: no

Um Why? Apart from the tweak to FNP they are still good objective campers (all i ever saw them used for or used them for myself)

Enfernux wrote:

mandrakes: no

Nothing to see here

Enfernux wrote:

warriors: gunboat is "better", but needs extra points to be used, blob is more reasonable

Blobs are less durable now thanks to the cover changes so i am unsure why you think they are more reasonable. Gunboats are indeed better but the 'extra points' are hardly an issue - infact, most people can simply take off flickerfields and put on splinter racks (not what I would do but thats another issue)

Enfernux wrote:

wyches: AT, nothing more, nothing less

Same as the BB's... you shoot before going in which will help the overwatch and then the wyches can do what they always have done.

Enfernux wrote:

scourges: glances kill vehicles, can kill IG vets and worse

I think the scourges got a boost but not enough that i would put them in before RJB

Enfernux wrote:

RJB: fun but not worth it

Ok... this unit got a major boost - better saves, better T, better threat range all for no loss in effectivness and no increase in points... how are they not worth it?

Enfernux wrote:

hellions: as troops max

I think hellions are average at best for the most part and this edition did not help. The changes to terrain (5+ being the main cover save) means the stealth buff is less effective and they already sucked in combat... which makes them a shooty unit... which we can do better with other things...

Enfernux wrote:

beasts masters: want them to be troops, but they are good in vound allocation

They are actually worse for wound allocation now as the enemy can take out the masters to get the LD down and then break the unit or simply move to ensure your not getting the 4++ from the khymera. I think beasts took a hit overall

Enfernux wrote:

ravagers: cheapest lances

Nothing new here (and thats a good thing!)

Enfernux wrote:

talos: no

Um? Why? Changes to cover make it easier to get the ++ save. If it gets FNP then its even tougher and its good reliable AT weapons on top of a solid assault unit.

Enfernux wrote:

cronos: no

I tend to agree but thats the same for 5th ed.

Enfernux wrote:

void: flyer, thats a por and a con

To me its all Pros... harder to hit, faster, bomb is easier to use and more effective thanks to the blast changes - IMO still not as good as the...

Enfernux wrote:

rwjf: flyer, ^

Razorwing took a minor hit in th missile dump stakes but its still a fantastic bang for buck vehicle which is now harder to shoot down. Great!

Enfernux wrote:

wwp: forget it

It just needs to be a shooty force walking out now... its worse for sure but still usable

Enfernux wrote:

what i think viable: baron list with hellions, warriors in gunboats, forget elite slots, one ravager, one voidraven, 1 rwjf, use beastmasters, forget hq unless the minimum 1 baron.
lelith is fun, but is hard to get her benefits of no AS. Shoot, shoot, shoot. Thats viable.

Doom and gloom with a mono build huh... great

DE to me were always more shooty thanks to the whole, i can hurt you while you have to wait until your turn to hurt me so for me little changes, its a primarliy shooty force. That said, we still have a tonne of options other than a Baron/hellion blob with mixed bag units in support

I have to add one or two things for my ho,e girls the wyches. Before people complained that they weren't killy enough and just a tarpit, now they can shoot before charging and throw a S4 ap4 blast marker, and have had FNP nurfed after a sort so they are more killy and less tarpitty which is what I think they should have been to begin with.
Also you will have some wyches killed by overwatch, but almost every tactica I have ever read about wyches said to bring them in groups of 7-8. Since we will loose some to overwatch just bring ten and you'll have the numer recomended when you make contact anyways.
I thinks the boosts that wyches have gotten in being able to cap tanks left and right more than makes up for the nurf, since now they can take on most any unit besides aircraft and either destroy it or tarpit it untill you can get something else there to take care of it.

That should have been home girls lol my bad

archon 75 pts for a lance
haem: fnp was our safeguard
lelith: noth worth it, unless you assault termies to ingore AS, but the who you use to help her?
vect: meq is meq, not teq
hellions are better imho in a lot of ways than wyches for assault - faster and more, baron just gives an extra.
if grots are shot dow, thanks to the new shooty basic, how will they wreck face?
whats malys's unty-psy range vs runes of warding? and the points?
incu: vect is good vs meq, incu good vs meq, inco now fail vs teq, not meq, teq
bb: you shoot/grenade before you charge...out of range because of the nearest models, and then geting shot up? Yep
born: how meny hullpoints does a venom have? 2?
at max: stay out of range and shoot if able. With everyone advancing to mid filed...
let me see grots dish out damage to tau. 30 grots never got near me. You move 6, i move 12, if you focus on my piranhas, then even farther way. if not, you die fast.
wracks: apart from babysitting obj's with nothing and then getting killed y anything other than tau?
blobs are for aegis tacs, gunboats are for not aegis tacs. if you only put racks on to snapfire, then you will be in range of most of the enemies as well. Nightshields, racks, at minimum.
wyches: same as bb
scourges take 2 hwb for 5, almost fix 2 glances per turn not a great boost with ds...right.
rjb: duno about new save, better t is t4, already included in a nother topic for mathhammer, better threat range they can move 36" 5th ed they could move 36". What greater threat range?
hellions: only calculated them for math, never realy used them, math gave them huge advantages.
talos: tau? they are 4th ed and can kill a talos in 1 turn with 1 unite.
cronos: coven lists could make good use.
voidraven: in 5th i used them to hunt vehicles and with implo, hun teq.
rwjf: anti infantry roll for me.
wwp: you walk out, you shoot, then a leman russ kills 90% of the squad.

shoot'dar were a 1/5 chance at least in mid/easter europe.

@Bibity: i lost my briliant post to a net dc, i will only say i calculated and read, and watched, and played and wyches will die.

Rjb can move 12 then turboboost another 36.

This may have been said fifty times by now, but I think three main units gained substantial improvement.

1. Hellions - Some of the changes give the Hellions some really cool tactical choices. Since they have fleet AND are jump troops, they can get 12" movement and 2d6" charge with re-rolls. General jump troops either get 12" or the re-roll on charges, but not both. Granted, you can't get the I10 hit with this method. So, 14"-24" Assault WITH normal shooting attacks. In addition, Overwatch grants some interesting fire-power. This lets you spend your shooting phase to dump 40 (we'll assume max squad number) poison shots at 18". If assaulted, dump Overwatch into the opponent, deny their extra attacks with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, and cut them down with your already high initiative. If there's any left, use Hit and Run at the end of combat, rinse and repeat. The "Challenge" rules are also an interesting thing with Hellions. Imagine if you had 20 Hellions, the Baron, and Helliarch with the Stunclaw. Pull away their IC and have the Baron challenge him to a duel. While the Baron is not a monster when it comes to close combat, he now gets a re-roll (usable in combat) for every 5 members in his squad. Couple that with "Look Out, Sir!" to deny the enemy IC from scoring against the Baron. These new rules can help make the Hellions an even bigger pain for opponents (I personally enjoy getting the other player raging...they make more mistakes that way).

2. Scourges. Not a big surprise here. Hull points have made Haywire Blasters the new black. At 260 points, you get a 10 man squad with four haywire blasters. They have the best basic armor in our army (not that this says all that much) and are almost guaranteed to wreck a vehicle (even as strong as Land Raiders) each round (as long as nobody rolls a 1). I'm planning on taking at least 2 of them per game. On a personal note, I'm happiest to see these units become effective, because I think the models are the best in our already-gorgeous line-up.

3. Voidraven bomber. With the new flying rules, our mighty aircraft are limited to 2 weapons fired per turn (as we can't Hover and Aerial Assault was revoked in our FAQ) plus a bomb. What this means is that the Razorwing Jet Fighter won't be able to even use most of it's missiles and weapons very quickly. It would take you 2 rounds to get all the cool "One Shot" ordinance away. I dabbled a lot with Jetfighters in my 5th edition lists and they had a giant "KILL ME" sign on them. In 5th, this didn't matter as long as I dumped my payload. In 6th, the Voidraven becomes a more competitive choice than it previously was, as you are able to use every one of its weapons per turn (provided you didn't pay for missiles). I don't think that 6th has made the Voidraven the best of our fliers, but it has brought it into competition with the Razorwing (whereas in 5th, the Razorwing was an obvious choice over the Voidraven).

I dont know why hellions get praised
in 6th ed
They have less cover save and FNP
Their charge range change from 12 + D6 + 6 to 12 + 2D6 (reroll) , that's not an improvement
They can overwatch but also be overwatched
close combat : hard time against those new 2+ save IC , ofcoz hit and run with stun claw "may" be a solution

Hellions aren't really jump infantry... they work more like bikes, so that sucks... Do the hellions really land, run with their board for a bit, and then jump on and boost into assault? i dont think so...

Anyway, you can only move 6 + 2d6 (reroll) if you want HoW, if you move 12 + 2d6 you lose the extra attack, just want to make sure that's clear.

New member, but long time lurker. From what I've read is there anything preventing you from DS with a wych squad then chucking a haywire grenade blast at enemy vehicles. I know you can scatter into the vehicles and the grenade can come back on a scatter as well, but it seems a fun little dirty trick most people won't expect.

XOgreWarHulkX wrote:

New member, but long time lurker. From what I've read is there anything preventing you from DS with a wych squad then chucking a haywire grenade blast at enemy vehicles. I know you can scatter into the vehicles and the grenade can come back on a scatter as well, but it seems a fun little dirty trick most people won't expect.

Welcome to the forum.

From what I've understood so far of the rules you can do that. But you'll need a Raider with the appropiate upgrade or the Duke.

I'd prefer DSing with a squad of Scourges and 4 Haywire Blasters. That's the effect of chucking 4 grenades...

Haywires are sssweet in 6th!

Haywires equal must have. All ten pages of this thread have definitely reinforced that fact. I'm very disappointed about Mandrakes still being 15 point sacrificial units for me to keep people from shooting my other units for a turn.

But beyond that I can't really offer any ideas or advice that hasn't already been brought up. Also a lot of my questions have already been answered.

The grenade was my only real idea on something that hadn't been brought up yet.

Enfernux, please try to make your posts more easy to read. No capitalization and hitting enter after every sentence to form a wall of text is really straining on the eyes, no offense intended.

As for most of your points, many things you name were already a reality in 5th. So what if a Venom has 2 HP, I've both my Blasterborn Venoms bite the dust turn 1 just as much as I've had them run free and wreak havoc. Yeah, if they get shut down, they will be only so mobile their little legs allow, but that's how mech works.

Some of what you say also obviously stems just from personal experience, which is a double edged sword as it isn't always quite accurate. I haven't played Hellions at all and I still don't see a place for them in my army, but I wouldn't claim that they therefore are horrible. For a long time, my Ravager did diddly squat all game, either missing or doing miserable glancing hits while my Blasterborn cleaned up the parking lots. Based on my empirical data alone, Ravagers wouldn't be "worth it", but we all know that's far from truth. I could go on with more examples but I hope I've illustrated the point about personal experience not necessarily painting an accurate picture.

I would disagree about Haemonculus being only there for FNP. I am very fond of the Liquifier gun, and it is the reason why I also really like wracks. It has 1 in 3 chance of turning termies into soup, while regular marines are gooped 1 out of 2 times. Liquifier is one of our few template guns, and is probably the best for the points, it shouldn't be underestimated.

I strongly disagree about RJBs. They became faster, tougher, do more damage and comparatively have better cover saves than any other bike unit bar our cousins. How would they still not be worth it? I would guess it is only true in the case where their application still isn't quite clear. Indeed, in 5th I wasn't really sure where to use them so they always underperformed and died quickly. I'd blame myself more than the unit itself. Now though, they are almost a whole new unit, and getting the hang of them will take some time, but I'm sure it will be greatly rewarding.

All in all, the game is heading down a more tactical route. It is no longer sufficient to just charge headlong in the ranks of the enemy (that wasn't a very good idea even in 5th), now we simply have to prep it up more. The idea of RJBs taking the brunt of an Overwatch to be followed by Wyches is a great example to this, and it's just something that came up only a week after 6th launched. We have plenty of time to sit and think about how better approach the new ruleset, so we should do just that instead of lamenting the tactics that are no longer viable.

After all, were any of our first games with the Dark Kin great? Mine were horrible, agonizing defeats. But I learned from those mistakes and developed tactics based on that experience. As the haemonculi say, to deal pain you must first experience great pain on yourself.

Siticus the Ancient wrote:

the Liquifier gun ... has 1 in 3 chance of turning termies into soup,

Not exactly. It has a one in three chance of rolling AP 1 or 2, which I suspect is what you refer to, but half of those occasions it will also turn out to be S3 or less. Not saying I'm not a fan, just that you over-state the case a bit. (Mind you, last night I got shot with two of those, both S6 and one AP1 - very nasty when that comes off.)

Ben_S wrote:

Siticus the Ancient wrote:

the Liquifier gun ... has 1 in 3 chance of turning termies into soup,

Not exactly. It has a one in three chance of rolling AP 1 or 2, which I suspect is what you refer to, but half of those occasions it will also turn out to be S3 or less. Not saying I'm not a fan, just that you over-state the case a bit. (Mind you, last night I got shot with two of those, both S6 and one AP1 - very nasty when that comes off.)

You only roll for the AP of a Liquifier, not the strength. It's S4.