6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)

Briefspite wrote:

When it comes to shooty termies, it really doesnt matter to me where the shooting is coming from. A Long Fang missile launcher kills my vehicles just as easy as a Cyclone missile launcher. Of course removing the threat might be harder with terminators, but this is partly why I play Dark Eldar. If I wanted easy mode I would have played grey, silver or red marines.

Differences is:
1) Long Fangs have two times worse save and dying relatively easy due to poison torrent, and every casuality diminish their firepower
2) Long Fangs are not relentless. And they really suck in close combat.

Rest of sentence is trash and nonsence. We were talking about "how useful ap2 power weapons were". You'll see more shooty termies, no doubt.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:

They are literally making us play "spam" "rush" lists which I totally despise - god I hate venom spam.

+1

Hijallo wrote:

Rest of sentence is trash and nonsence.

Perhaps to you mate

Hijallo wrote:

We were talking about "how useful ap2 power weapons were". You'll see more shooty termies, no doubt.

Probably, and then we might have to change our lists to compensate, but as I am trying to say it all comes down to how the meta changes. If we see more infantry based armies we might, as an example, be able to use more disintegrators than we do now. Right now there are no right answers because we don't know how things will change.

B.

You think it's freaking God granted us our Meta? I'm no Farseer, but i can predict: less Razor-spam due to their vulnerability (every freaking 5-ork squad would wreck them, 3 glances from any S5 rapid fire crap and they are gone). More Termies. More Battle Tanks - glance no more shuting them down, Weapon Destroy is random selection rather then "always rip off the main gun". And many, many Flyers. How would you deal against 3 Vendettas? 6? 9?

Briefspite wrote:

Hijallo wrote:

Rest of sentence is trash and nonsence.

Perhaps to you mate

Probably, and then we might have to change our lists to compensate, but as I am trying to say it all comes down to how the meta changes. If we see more infantry based armies we might, as an example, be able to use more disintegrators than we do now. Right now there are no right answers because we don't know how things will change.

B.

+1 to you for taking the high road I think that people will be a little touchy this weekend with the new rules changing our lists a bit and we at the Dark City appreciate keeping the tempers at bay while we sort through the changes
I'm with you on this. When introduced to new rules, our first reaction is to focus on how "everything that I used to do sucks!!". I agree that we will have to alter lists a little bit. I've played a WWP list A LOT[b] in the last year or so and am a bit disappointed by the inability to assault out of them, but I am sure that I can find a useful way to use them strategically. Much of what we did (Our "tricks") was based on the old rule set and I am sure that DE players are crafty enough(by nature and definition) to find new ones

I've gotta admit: I was never keen on charging Terminators before(even with Incubi) and will be shooting the Bajeezus out of them from afar even more!

Hijallo wrote:

You think it's freaking God granted us our Meta? I'm no Farseer, but i can predict:

No I don't think God grants us our meta, but I have been playing this game since the Rogue Trader era and I have been through plenty of changes on the way so I have learned to roll with the punches.

It might pan out as you predict, if that is true then we have three choices, adapt, change armies or quit.

If it turns out that DE lack the tools to thrive in the new meta then its little we can do about it, I don't like it any more than you do but that is how it is.

Personally, once I have digested all the changes and gotten a few games in against various opponents, I will make an informed decision on how I will proceed in 6th.

Peace,

B.

Briefspite - who is that in your avatar? If it is you or a loved one then excuse me but that is kinda how I look right now after seeing the FAQ. I mean no disrespect, just shocked at the moment trying to get a grip.

I do appreciate your words of patience, it was what I was preaching before the FAQ. Now, I am eating my words as premature in my assessment as I am without reading the rule book.

I am hoping there is some cravat in the rules somewhere that will make this nightmare go away - I offer my best slaves, finest grotesques and your choice of Talos to anyone who can sift through this train wreck and decipher what I can do with the portal and reserves.

Trying to keep my chin up, the answer has to be hidden in the rule book somewhere...

P.S. Not sure about the whole terminator thing, usually throwing 10 wracks with 2 liquifiers at 5 terminators was an easy win. It usually left 1 or 2 terminators to survive into the next round until the remaining terminators died to torrent of poison. Of course, that was wracks coming out of a portal.

Surely the internet venom spam deals with terminators very efficiently - can't imagine this being a very big speed bump.

Does anyone else think it's weird that everyone gets super-excited about an edition change, and then hits the pits of despair when the rules actually arrive, inevitably requiring adjustments in list and playstyle? And that this happens every. single. time.? It's as if everyone likes the concept of a new edition, but really just wants to continue playing under the old rules, without needing to adjust at all.

I dunno, perhaps I care less because I didn't play 5th enough (as in, a couple of 500pt games, so really literally nothing, so I'm a total n00b) to be invested in a particular way of engaging with my army, but isn't this an opportunity to rediscover everything? The lack of fixity in the meta in terms of how various armies and units interact with one another makes me excited, not depressed.

So you can't assault out of a WWP anymore. This only makes it useless if you regarded assault as being the only possible value of the WWP, ignoring the tactical flexibility it offers. Sure, in general this edition has made certain things harder for us, but I just don't see how things could possibly be as bad as Grumpy Kwi seems to think they are.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:

Briefspite - who is that in your avatar? If it is you or a loved one then excuse me but that is kinda how I look right now after seeing the FAQ. I mean no disrespect, just shocked at the moment trying to get a grip.

No worries, its just a random avatar I found on the net. I do feel like that at times so I can relate to how you are feeling at the moment

I don't have any answers myself, I am reading the rules and the various FAQ's trying to get a grip on the new rules. However its no denying that the WWP of old are dead and buried. If foot dark eldar becomes viable in some form or another then WWP may find a place in a list like that, or perhaps in a hybrid raider/venom/ravager list with multiple beast master packs emerging from the portal.

Am I the only one that used to charge Terminators with beasts, kill all of them with like no losses and move on?

In Wych WWP lists, Hellions hit marines. Beasts hit terminators. Wyches hit Dreads. It was simple, effective, and would table a Marine in about 4 turns (Depending on his positioning). This has been nullified.

Whilst I like idea of riding Drazhar into combat (God I miss 3rd Ed Drazhar) against pretty much anything and having him do some decent damage, the risk/reward/ is just far too imbalanced.

If I not not mistaken, but nobody has said anything about psyker defence? (Like fantasy). If I'm wrong, please let me know. Whilst I want to work around the new Psyker stuff that just came spewing out of the Marine lists without a Farseer, I feel like I might need one at the higher tier's of play.

For things outside of assault lists, Terminators still aren't a big deal. They're a big points sink for the marine player, plus the transport (Although I find most to be drop-podded in). You just shoot them and they go away. It's all about target priority; it's the biggest mistake people seem to make. Things have to be killed in a certain order, even if your dice rolls go bad and you end up needing your whole army to kill it. (Not to say that T's are always the biggest threat and need to die ASAP)

De autoloses against IG vendetta spam. We can't deal with those aymore.

IG just got ridiculously strong.

Seelenberührer wrote:

dunno, perhaps I care less because I didn't play 5th enough (as in, a couple of 500pt games, so really literally nothing, so I'm a total n00b) to be invested in a particular way of engaging with my army, but isn't this an opportunity to rediscover everything?

Seelenberuhrer, I can't expect you to know or understand playing 7 years of WWP and suddenly, tell me you can't assault out of it and not affect the major component taking it in the first place? This is like telling a Tau Player they can not shoot on the turn they arrive from reserves.

Quote :

The lack of fixity in the meta in terms of how various armies and units interact with one another makes me excited, not depressed.

Um, wwp lists were not the meta - they were an exception to the meta. Now, we are being drawn into the meta (me kicking and screaming). Not sure what you meant with that statement I guess but GW just took away a method to play the army a different way and just threw them into the rest of the meta.

Quote :

So you can't assault out of a WWP anymore. This only makes it useless if you regarded assault as being the only possible value of the WWP, ignoring the tactical flexibility it offers.

Not sure if you quite get what the wwp did - there was no reason to take the WWP other than tactical flexibility. I used the wwp to get my units into close combat as quickly as possible, if you were just taking the wwp for you units to shoot from then why spend 70 points? Your experience of playing 500 point lists isn't going to reveal the benefits of a wwp.

Quote :

... but I just don't see how things could possibly be as bad as Grumpy Kwi seems to think they are.

How about I present my point a view in a way that a new player can understand:

If you wanted to play or have been playing a WWP - everything has changed.

If you are new to the army or just never played WWP - nothing has changed, no worries mate!

Ereshkigal wrote:

De autoloses against IG vendetta spam. We can't deal with those aymore.

It's not really a case of "we" can't deal with them but "no one"can. The most we could (reasonably) take in a game that doesn't grant the second FoC is three flyers, maybe four to seven if we ally with guard or marines. They can take 9 right off the bat, plus hydras. Admittedly they're in squadrons, but besides other guard armies or flying Nizilla, no army has the AA right now to handle that effectively. It'll come down to playing hide and seek with our 30" Move+Flat out for 5 turns and then grabbing objectives last second, maybe dropping points on a Quad Gun or two.

Also, Harlequins got a solid buff (although only in the Eldar FAQ for some reason ), Veil of Tears now gives Shrouded and Stealth. Shrouded says the unit will always have at least a 5+ cover save if they aren't in cover, Stealth confers a +1, so they always have a 4+ cover save if they are out in the open, while getting a +2 to cover if they are in it.

Okay, I'm done with the doom and gloom.

RIP WWP

Going to find a new way to play my pirates.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:

Okay, I'm done with the doom and gloom.

RIP WWP

Going to find a new way to play my pirates.

Use harlequins as allies now that they're good. Be cool, like me!

Grumpy Kwi wrote:

Okay, I'm done with the doom and gloom.

RIP WWP

Going to find a new way to play my pirates.

Atta boy!

at least my playstyle is unaffected.. duke's deepstriking ravagers/venoms are still good to go.

Killing Mepheston no longer gives a PT. Vect is sad.

Jesus vendettas are going to be vile. .SM character challenges and auto wins now. Agonisers . Bin.them

Husk blade WTF 35 pts WTF! ? The Faq is awful they hardly bothered. Archon gets caught in a cc with a marine Character or anything else with 2plus save its all over.

I'll do a blog post later when I have had a good think/calmed down.

Oh and vect is worthless too ....

Sorrowshard wrote:

Jesus vendettas are going to be vile. .SM character challenges and auto wins now. Agonisers . Bin.them

Husk blade WTF 35 pts WTF! ? The Faq is awful they hardly bothered. Archon gets caught in a cc with a marine Character or anything else with 2plus save its all over.

I'll do a blog post later when I have had a good think/calmed down.

We get 2++ saves, so it's more like they hit each over and over until one of them gets tired. Unless you have your archon without a shadowfield but still being CC focused for some reason.

calm down sorrow.

huskblade is still good because we're still getting a ridiculous amount of attacks on the charge and if they fail so much as one save.. POOF. they die.

I think agonizers wold still be fun. I have two hellions with them, but now I'll probably run one in a hellion blob and use the other as a beastmaster.

We can STILL go ballistic with the ravagers to get close enough to vendettas OR I can just drop right behind them and glance them to death.

and if all else fails... ally with tau and make the vendetta face a hammerhead with a railgun. guaranteed he'll try and focus on that instead.

Captain Mayhem wrote:

at least my playstyle is unaffected.. duke's deepstriking ravagers/venoms are still good to go.

You are wrong, you cannot reseve more then half of your army. Suddenly, Marines still can go all-drop: coz all models who MUST be placed in reserve, don't count toward this rule.

And for people who gives "awesome" advices to shoot down Termies...

just imagine: 30 Termies w/ FnP. shooty termies.

If you want to destroy them by Venoms... ok, 1 termie have got 2+ then 5+ - so 2/3*1/6 = 1/9 chance of failing the save.

You need to score 90 wonds to completely kill the squad by splinter fire. Which means - 180 hits for one squad, then - tripple.

Okay, may be we should use our Dissies...
Singe Dissie: 3 shots, 3+ hit - 2 hits. 3+ wound - 4/3 wounds. 5+ cover, 5+ fnp = 5/9 chance of negating this wound. [you understang now why fnp works against ap1-2, yeah?]. So single Dissie scores an average ~20/27 wounds.

If you are fielding Raider Spam with all-dissies, and three ravagers, and some guys w/ plasma in your allies - may be you can do it. But for my poor vision, it's a deadend.

Other way is snipers. Unlike Assault Termies, only guys w/ Big Guns are threat, so allied farseer and 2 squads of Rangers (7-10 eldar) w/ Signaute Divination (and perhaps Ignore cover) will get rid of this guns.

Hijallo wrote:

Captain Mayhem wrote:

at least my playstyle is unaffected.. duke's deepstriking ravagers/venoms are still good to go.

You are wrong, you cannot reseve more then half of your army. Suddenly, Marines still can go all-drop: coz all models who MUST be placed in reserve, don't count toward this rule.

And for people who gives "awesome" advices to shoot down Termies...

just imagine: 30 Termies w/ FnP. shooty termies.

If you want to destroy them by Venoms... ok, 1 termie have got 2+ then 5+ - so 2/3*1/6 = 1/9 chance of failing the save.

You need to score 90 wonds to completely kill the squad by splinter fire. Which means - 180 hits for one squad, then - tripple.

Okay, may be we should use our Dissies...
Singe Dissie: 3 shots, 3+ hit - 2 hits. 3+ wound - 4/3 wounds. 5+ cover, 5+ fnp = 5/9 chance of negating this wound. [you understang now why fnp works against ap1-2, yeah?]. So single Dissie scores an average ~20/27 wounds.

If you are fielding Raider Spam with all-dissies, and three ravagers, and some guys w/ plasma in your allies - may be you can do it. But for my poor vision, it's a deadend.

Other way is snipers. Unlike Assault Termies, only guys w/ Big Guns are threat, so allied farseer and 2 squads of Rangers (7-10 eldar) w/ Signaute Divination (and perhaps Ignore cover) will get rid of this guns.

30 Temrinators are 1200 points, and are Elites, so the most you can have is 15, unless you are deathwing, Chaos, or GK.
As we have seen, Termi armies and Deathwing have been weak because they are slow and cannot maneuver. Get your head of the "kill all"mentality." Every vehicle in our army can move 30' a turn, most of the missions are objective based. Outmaneuver. Play keep away. Hide. You have a 6 by four table to handle 3 to six units that will have a threat range of 30 inches for most of their weapons, and will have to move from objectives if they want to chase you.

We didn't have an abundance of power weapons in our army last edition, and Terminators where not an issue, they will not be here either.

Uhm vendettas are now flyers you need sites to hit. They can take nine. Three TL cannons are much better than Dl 's all for what 20 points?

And no the huskblade is ass, it was ok when you could force a bunch of 3++ saves on them when you were lucky enough to roll more than one five on the wounds... yes Draz is a bit better but he'll still loose to most generic marine chars with a 3++

I Think I'm mostly happy with the core idea of the system. Our faq is frankly lame. Will expand soon.