Mandrakes!!

i just like to spend my points elsewhere, where it can function better.
Pray, tell me what is irrational in an out of date unite beating the up
to date unite, in all case scenarios? They both have s4, they both get a
leader, one has more potential, and yes, its the CWE one.

I am not saying they are utterly useless, but there are meny-meny more options for their task with better results.
And since i play assault themed DE, results are everything for me, for
the only thing i dont charge - thanks to the pw nerf - are hammernators.

Efernux's comparison, while is probably not the most accurate putting them head-to-head, let's see what it yields. There are three separate points Efernux has made, and I'd like to address them individually:

(Also, if reading this just seems daunting, make a quick skip to the end of the post, I think there is an interesting discussion to be had, given what has been said by a number of earlier posters to this thread).

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Enfernux wrote:

i just like to spend my points elsewhere, where it can function better.
Pray, tell me what is irrational in an out of date unite beating the up
to date unite, in all case scenarios? They both have s4, they both get a
leader, one has more potential, and yes, its the CWE one.

Let us look at a realistic situation-- by T1 each game, my mandrakes are sitting in cover (of some sort) with one pain token and are set-up in cover (usually it's a 4+,but let's say 5+ for a less than ideal situation). Further, any scorpions left in cover would be ignored, not charged (or just shot), so this set-up is the most common and realistic starting point I've seen in the last 500 or so games, let's look at similar unit set-ups:

9 Mandrakes: 135 points
8 Striking Scorpions, Exarch, Infil, Move through Cover: 181 Points (have to give exarch for infiltrate and mtc, innate abilities the mandrakes have)

There is a lot of math here, and you can check it if you like, but I'm just going to list results for the sake of time:

Note: this is assuming a 50/50 chance of a successful charge for the purposes of this analysis.

Mandrakes get first turn, and their charge succeeds:
Mandrakes: Shooting and CC attacks (striking second): 4 1/3 dead Scorpions
Scorpions: Overwatch and CC attacks (striking first): 3 2/3 dead Mandrakes

Mandrakes get first turn, failed charge:
Mandrakes: Shooting, Overwatch, CC (striking sim.): 5 1/6 dead Scorpions
Scorpions: Shooting, Overwatch and CC (striking sim. + exarch first): 3 2/6 dead Mandrakes

Scorpions first turn, charge succeeds:
Mandrakes: Overwatch and CC (striking sim.): 2 dead Scorpions
Scorpions: Shooting and CC (striking sim. + exarch first): 6 dead Mandrakes

Scorpions first turn, failed charge:
Mandrakes: Overwatch, Shooting and CC (striking second): 3.5 dead Scorpions
Scorpions: Shooting, Overwatch and CC (Striking first): 5 dead Mandrakes

For these scenarios I use a "Contested points efficiency rating". Essentially, Average points per wound over the 4 scenarios combined, cumulative rounding per phase. (lower is better)

Mandrakes CPE: 9
Scorpions CPE: 10

So Mandrakes are actually the more efficient squad here, though honestly not by much. That is, of course, assuming the Mandrake player makes the tactically poor decision of charging. In a less than great scenario for the Mandrakes where the player acts intelligently (SS go first, failed charge, Mandrakes don't move), mandrake damage goes way up. Further, if the scorpions are more than one move and charge away, and Mandrakes go first, they're wiping to floor with the scorpions. NOTE: this is not the case vice-versa.

It gets even better when the Scorpion Exarch is given the claw (as in most set-ups). He actually only adds another kill for plus 15 points (thanks to 5++, mandrake saves are only partially ignored (loss of FNP)). So the Scorpions CPE actually increases,while the Mandrakes will remain constant. Making the mandrakes even more consistent and efficient than the Scorpions

There are also less than ideal circumstances for the 'drakes. What if, by some highly unlikely circumstance, they don't get the PT? Scorpions are more efficient by a point to a point and a half or so. All in all, it's not that big of a difference, and there are a ton of variables to be considered in a game that could give an edge to either squad (still assuming no other units), therefore....

Contested Efficiency:
Draw

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Efernux wrote:

And since i play assault themed DE, results are everything for me, for
the only thing i dont charge - thanks to the pw nerf - are hammernators.

Mandrake Upsides: Let's not forget about power weapons! PW ignore the SS save of 3+, but don't touch the 5++/FNP. Same thing goes for a number of AP 3 weapons. So actually, against different opposing units, the Mandrakes have more upside than the Scorpions. Also, the Mandrakes have the ability to get furious charge AND become fearless (which is less damaging now).

Scorpion Upsides: The Scorpions w/Exarch will kill an extra MEQ per turn. However, with a second pain token, the mandrakes surpass this bonus if they get a second pain token (which they usually do-- and it's free, points-wise). They also have grenades (but that's been taken into account above, and one AP4 blast v. all AP4 shots), Mandrakes still have the greater upside.

Upside Advantage:
Mandrakes

Let's also look at the intangibles:

USR:

SS: Infiltrate, Move through Cover
Mandrakes: Infiltrate, Move through Cover, Stealth, Power from Pain, Night Vision (let's not forget 56% of games w/DE, at least, start with night fighting), Invulnerable Save (discussed above)

Six useful rules to two, and for 5 points less per model. (Since SS require exarch for their Special Rules, if you spread out the cost of the rules among the squad, SS actually cost about 20 points per model).

Advantage: Mandrakes

And their shooting weapons:
Scorpions: 12"range, S4 AP5, Pistol (+1 Catapult if the exarch has the claw, +1 scattering small blast plasma grenade).
Mandrakes: 18" Range, S4 AP4, Assault 2, Pinning.

+6" range, +1 AP, x2 shots, pinning. 5 points less / model.

Advantage: Mandrakes

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Efernux wrote:

I am not saying they are utterly useless, but there are meny-meny more options for their task with better results.

@Efernux, if you are willing to oblige me, I would like to work through something with you (or anyone else who can join in). What battlefield roles do you imagine scorpions fulfilling? What roles do you see Mandrakes fulfilling?

Anyone who is reading this, please take a few minutes to make a list (or two) and post it. I have my lists of what I use each unit for, and I will post later on. However, I have to be off and I would like to hear what others contribute before I put up a list.

i was merely using scorpions to represent a not so powerful assault unite. If i wanted a comparison, that i know will show drakes to be - in my eyes - mostly degraded, then i would have compared them to incubi.
As for lists, for fluff reasons, i like the biel-tan, but i was using saim-hann, so i dont really assault, except with the JSC.
Hmm...biel-tan painted GJB...i know what i will be doing

in turn 1 if i go first, you will be sitting in cover, but unless you deployed then normally, i either wont be able to charge you and you get a pain token before i can, or you deployed them using infiltrate and will not get the pain token.

Efernux wrote:

or you deployed them using infiltrate and will not get the pain token.

As a straight forward points comparison then yeah buddy, this would be true, but as I mentioned (and Roc too) the current method for obtaining the pain token means that the Drakes start in cover 12" away from a Raider with a Haemie on board, who on turn 1 moves up 6", disembarks and joins the drakes. The Haemie can then leave in turn 2 or stay (depending on whats happening elsewhere).

I enjoy the mathhammering - and I certainly can see your point of view Efernux; working out in a competitive environment what units will yield you the best return is one of the most effective ways of making a list. However, as was mentioned earlier by Roc, it depends on the situation, from my own humble point of view:
- most dark eldar elite slots are 'elite' ie. very good at one role (eg. Incubi = combat monsters)
- mandrakes are a 'jack of all trades' unit: survivable vs shooting and power weapons (invuln & good cover saves), have a good shooting attack (the space marine bolter comparison is not quite true: yes a 12" rapid fire range and 6" move will yield the same number of shots. BUT, an 18" range becomes an effective 24" if moving as well as being AP 4, Pinning and can assault the target being shot at - these make the comparison less clear).

I think that it very much depends on your style of play: for me, yes you are correct in one way - mandrakes are not very points efficient on their own: no pain token etc. BUT with the pain token and good cover they can become a very useful utility tool for a variety of purposes. However, they require support or will be supplying a supportive role for other units (eg. aiding a warrior unit in rapid firing a unit to death or by pinning down an enemy heavy weapons squad or by assaulting at the same time as a wych squad or Talos to help 'swing' the combat in your favour...)

To clarify: I do not think that there is a 'right' and 'wrong' point of view here, but a preference in play style: I do think that Drakes can be playable and effective and even competitive as an elites choice (from my limited experience of 6th) but that they lack focus and dedication to one role - thus, they require support.

Roc is being very patient and understanding by all accounts, and like me, is keen to have an open discussion about this topic - it is certainly a complex area however regarding Mathhammer as Mushkilla points out, and indeed keeping things in a vacuum is not very realistic, however it is hard to try to compare the relative points effectiveness in any other way. Hence, in my opinion, the best plan is to simply get some games and try them out in a variety of ways - you may be pleasantly surprised, or you may have your suspicions confirmed.

@Roc: I shall have a good long hard think about your list concept - I take it you mean Army List?

dangerous beans wrote:

Efernux wrote:

or you deployed them using infiltrate and will not get the pain token.

As a straight forward points comparison then yeah buddy, this would be true, but as I mentioned (and Roc too) the current method for obtaining the pain token means that the Drakes start in cover 12" away from a Raider with a Haemie on board, who on turn 1 moves up 6", disembarks and joins the drakes. The Haemie can then leave in turn 2 or stay (depending on whats happening elsewhere).

and as i said, if i go turn 1 you dont get it

How come? Blow the raider up? Forgive me if I'm missing something here...

it was compared that if you deploy anyway with the drakes, except without infiltrating, but you go second, then you wont get the pain token, for IC cant join infiltrating unites on deployment, there fore the comparison of 1st turn pain tokens for drakes isnt accurate, if the opponent goes first.

is this what you missed? I didnt say anything on blowing up a raider.

If my opponent spends his first turn shooting at drakes with a 3-4+ cover save, then as far as I'm concerned they have done a good job.

Mush, ever heard of Tau marker lights removing cover?
and again, i didnt say anything about shooting at them XD not shooting at raider, not shooting at drakes, not blowing up raiders, not denying the ability for them to get anything done...just that you dont get pfp token if you deploy with infultrate rule and the opponent gets first turn.

man...

First game turn, Enfernux.

@Agatha fair enough

Looks like I missed a lot of the fun!

@Efernux: Yes, if the DE player does not get first turn, the Mandrakes will be unable to start the game with FNP. For that reason in particular I usually place them somewhere out of sight, and have them move into the area terrain on the first turn to meet up with a 'monc or a chronos-gift. Alternatively, they can also go to ground to scoop up that 3+ cover at worst. Oh, and Tau markerlights? Those still exist? I see a Tau player on occasion, and markerlights are a major pain in the ass-- especially for my force (it's built around cover saves at this point). But thankfully, we usually have enough firepower and CC threat to drop them-- and the Mandrakes threat range for a first turn charge has gotten more devastating with the new rules. And if they wipe the 'drakes out turn 1... well, there's the entire rest of the army! In my experience, as long as 1/2 survives the first turn, the game is just clean-up from there with out speed. Of course Mandrakes are not the end all be all-- they just deserve more love than they get, that's all.

@Dangerous: I was actually thinking of a list of roles that a unit plays on the battlefield:
I usually have it at anti-infantry CC, anti-MEQ CC, anti-TEQ (terminator) CC, anti-vehicle CC, short range AI fire support, short range AT hunting, mid/long-range fire-support (AI, anti-MEQ, anti-tank (light/transport/heavy)), area denial, objective denial, 'emergency' redeployment (usually based on speed), opposition deployment alterers, forward units (important for timing issues), and speed bumps. I'm sure I've forgot a few from the top of my head, but I've got about 24 roles listed there. Mandrakes, while not the best at a given role, are passable support/back-up for roughly 15 out of the 24 roles listed above. There is not any other unit in the Dark Eldar list that can provide support for so *many* of those roles.

I really enjoy redundancy in my list building. If its good enough to take once, its good enough to take twice! However, at a number of points levels, it becomes difficult to build into certain lists. Mandrakes allow me to flexibly support any number of tasks should the primary detachment in charge of achieving that task fail, or need a little extra support. That was what I was talking about as far as list building.

@Efernux: I really appreciate the input and the difference of opinion. As I've said a number of times, Mandrakes aren't for every list. Given what you were saying about holding an assault oriented list, that sounds like it's designed to hit the enemy like a brick wall, all at once, and as fast as possible, and without a number of coven pieces (assuming) they don't sound like a good fit.

However, my point with the Scorpions was that you picked a mediocre unit to compare them against, and in that comparison the Mandrakes have come out clearly on top. And personally, as a DE player, I don't begrude anyone an old codex. We had the oldest of them all, and still found ways to win!

The Incubi comparison is also an interesting one. If you look at it closer, examining who does more damage on the first turn of an assault (assuming move, shoot, overwatch, successful charge), the comparison really becomes very interesting. Not taking into account the extra turn of shooting the 'drakes would receive from the range of their weapons (and giving one pain token to the 'drakes and the incubi both).

5 Incubi: 110 Points
7 Mandrakes: 105 Points

Assuming WS4 across the board (note: at WS 3 and 5 Mandrakes get a boost where Incubi do not, and Incubi receive a boost at opponent WS9 that the Mandrakes do not get).

Against MEQs: Incubi do substantially more damage (about 1.5 to 2 wounds).
Against TEQs: Essentially even, I think Mandrakes do about .03% more wounds.
Against T4 4+, 5+,6+: Mandrakes do more damage (about 1 to 1.5 wounds more)
Against T3 4+,5+,6+: Mandrakes do substantially more damage (over 2 wounds)
Against Vehicles in CC: Mandrakes do more damage due to more attacks (one pain token or two).
Against light vehicles (speeders, raiders, etc.): Mandrakes definitely (shooting and CC capability v. just CC for the incubi).

So if you're facing a WS3, T3, 4+ save or worse opponent, Mandrakes end up making substantially shorter work, and they're slightly better or at least competitive in every other scenario except for one.

In fact, the only situation in which Incubi are more points efficient at dealing damage than Mandrakes is against T4 or more, and an armor save of 3+ (they even out at 2+, and Mandrakes get a slight edge at 4+ or worse armor).

Also, Incubi are more survivable against a number of attacks, whereas Mandrakes are more survivable against another set of attacks (both shooting and CC). Now, this is in no way to belittle Incubi. MEQ models run rampant and are a very important thing to have a highly effective hard counter for (Incubi to a 'T') and Incubi can do more with less.

What about shooting? Running the numbers, you actually run into a very similar situation comparing them against a shooty-warrior squad for the points cost (warriors truly outperform against monstrous creatures and the like, and mandrakes outperform a shooty warrior squad at range (Well, rapid-fire range) against T3 units and T4 units with 4+ armor saves, and are very similar against 2+ and 3+). Even if they're not better overall, they are highly competitive in most situations, and absolutely shine in one or two.

Again, not saying Mandrakes are the most amazing choice. But they are, by most accounts, a very solid choice *IF* they fit your style of play, and you have an easy PT distribution system.

And they definitely do not get the amount of love they deserve. Truly now. They need more love.

Roc wrote:

There is not any other unit in the Dark Eldar list that can provide support for so *many* of those roles.

I think reavers would give them a good run for their money. Not as disposable though.

The models are all the excuse i need to take them and make them work for me.

Shame the models don't have more poses.

True, but I suspect that might get amended in the future, like the grotesques

Roc wrote:

Against MEQs: Incubi do substantially more damage (about 1.5 to 2 wounds).
Against TEQs: Essentially even, I think Mandrakes do about .03% more wounds.
Against T4 4+, 5+,6+: Mandrakes do more damage (about 1 to 1.5 wounds more)
Against T3 4+,5+,6+: Mandrakes do substantially more damage (over 2 wounds)
Against Vehicles in CC: Mandrakes do more damage due to more attacks (one pain token or two).
Against light vehicles (speeders, raiders, etc.): Mandrakes definitely (shooting and CC capability v. just CC for the incubi).

what in the world?!
t4 drakes do 1.75(7(mod)*3(att)*3/6(hit)*3/6(wound)*2/6(unsave)) unsaved, if opponent isnt 2+ AS, incubi do 5(5(m)*3(a)*4/6(h)*3/6(w+ap3) unsaved wounds.
t3 drakes do 3.5 unsaved - ws4, 4+as - incubi deal 6.66 unsaved.

t4 isnt a 1.5 nor a 2 increase, rather 3.25. worse save decreases this difference, but the incu will weather more damage down than drakes IN CC.


everything else is fine though and i get your point...and you are spot on on my tacs, hit'em fast and hard, all at once. Record is 6 unites and 2 parking lots multi assaulted and wiped out in two turns but that was a big lucker for me and i didnt dare to play 40k for a week, not to anger the dice gods and to not be on lady average's bad side

Mushkilla wrote:

Shame the models don't have more poses.

I still have those skinny leather-suit models w/the odd latex masks. I think those might have two poses? Maybe? Combined with the current models?

Enfernux wrote:

what in the world?!
t4 drakes do 1.75(7(mod)*3(att)*3/6(hit)*3/6(wound)*2/6(unsave)) unsaved, if opponent isnt 2+ AS, incubi do 5(5(m)*3(a)*4/6(h)*3/6(w+ap3) unsaved wounds.
t3 drakes do 3.5 unsaved - ws4, 4+as - incubi deal 6.66 unsaved.

t4 isnt a 1.5 nor a 2 increase, rather 3.25. worse save decreases this difference, but the incu will weather more damage down than drakes IN CC.

Just to clarify on the math, note that I had taken into account approach shooting and overwatch casualties (which were negligible but gave the margin of error).

Against MEQ: Incubi's 5 shots adds about half a wound. (plus the 5, so roughly 5 1/2 wounds). Mandrakes' 14 shots add 1.55, plus the 1.75 is 3 1/3 wounds. Calculating overwatch and averaging that over several turns comes somewhere just under 2 wounds more for the incubi, depending on the calculation.

Against t3 armor 4+: incubi shots adds around 4/5 of a wound. Mandrakes add 4.7 wounds. so Incubi come out at about 7.5 wounds, mandrakes on the under hand drop solidly over 8 wounds. And again, overwatch impacts them less because the shooting comes before wounds (so their damage is less impacted over multiple charges), and it comes out to about just over two wounds more for drakes.

This is all assuming WS4, Mandrakes go up again against WS3 (as they even up the 3+ to hit with the Incubi). That's how I had come up with those numbers.

Again, not saying Mandrakes are better. Just solidly comparative as an assault element.

Incubi are like American Express-- you don't leave home without them.

Mandrakes are more like Visa-- they're everywhere you want to be.

Quote :

everything else is fine though and i get your point...and you are spot on on my tacs, hit'em fast and hard, all at once. Record is 6 unites and 2 parking lots multi assaulted and wiped out in two turns but that was a big lucker for me and i didnt dare to play 40k for a week, not to anger the dice gods and to not be on lady average's bad side.

That's fantastic. Especially the one week hiatus. It's funny how those games that you remember down the years in this hobby are often the ones that have to do more with luck. I still very clearly remember failing to roll a 3+ on 12+ dice to come in second place during the Armageddon tournament, and one game where I got the first turn and wiped out an entire 1,500 point Ultramarines army. 1 player turn. Before he even got a turn. (I think he did get a handful of strikes back in CC). His name was Kenny. This was the height of the South Park craze. You can imagine what I heard for the next week.

Roc, incubis shots?! They have klaves...Klaves! Klaivex may have s3ap3 stones, but thats all! If you are talking about that, then pardon me

Enfernux wrote:

Roc, incubis shots?! They have klaves...Klaves! Klaivex may have s3ap3 stones, but thats all! If you are talking about that, then pardon me

Hah! That's what I get for hurrying a response. I couldn't figure out why my numbers were off by about .3 to .4 wounds in each of those re-calculations. Guess I wanted to give the incubi their tormentor helms back. (They're in the fluff still!). The original number (and the point) still stands. Baleblast is an equalizer.

I think the best change to mandrakes they could make would be to give them scout (even if we have to drop infiltrate for it). It would give them massive synergy with WWP list, they could scout with the haemi deploy a portal and start with a pain token.

Offensive grenades and fear would be nice too.

Mushkilla wrote:

I think the best change to mandrakes they could make would be to give them scout (even if we have to drop infiltrate for it). It would give them massive synergy with WWP list, they could scout with the haemi deploy a portal and start with a pain token.

Offensive grenades and fear would be nice too.

Some sort of decent weaponry would be nice too. Power weapons would be OTT I think but poisoned wouldn't be too much.

They're never going to give you a way of deploying mandrakes with a pain token and still gain most of their benefits, I'm convinced that's why the Decapitator is not an IC. I agree though, not having some form of nastier close combat weapon is a shame, should perhaps have had rending, or maybe made them AP4/5 (or allowed them to charge first turn/immeidately after deployment - they are supposed to materialise out of peoples shadows after all, to then have to stand and stare at them for a turn seems, well, daft)

Well at least,

Bale blast: unit counts as armed with plasma grenades.
Deamonic: same as rulebook (so they have fear).

Any kind of weapon would be a little too much, and given them poison would ruin some of their effectiveness (they're made for taking out those T3 and T4 guys on a 2+/3+).

I would love to see scout added on. That alone would seal their awesomeness as a go-to unit IMO (especially given their original deployment scheme), though I understand why they don't do that (PfP).

As far as a weapon, either rending or 2 CC weapons would be solid. If they could pump out 4 attacks on the charge, with a 2x assault weapon with an 18" range, they definitely would begin to fill their own niche. Overall, 2 CC weapons would be the natural way to go with them.