Mandrakes!!

So you have one squad which is like with the mandrakes on the turn ( or near ) in the venom ( or raider, whatever ), I don't know whyt i though you'd take the haemy alone.
And no for the wyches, someone gave a tip so that on small squad of wyches would give a good cover o the one charging ( + grenades ), then that second unit would charge after without ovewatch, and I reall think that's a good way when you really want to go CC with something else than incub/wracks/grotesques.

I'd really love seeing them getting a up even a small one that's make them actually viable, to atm, I really see too many constraint for what they do, even though they seem much more resistant in this edition. I mean, If I want a cc unit, I have my archon + Inccub, and they may get an AP2 boost even though they are already much better in CC, but let's wait for the faq, I hope mandrake get something ( which I kinda doubt though >< )

I think the thing about Mandrakes is, what are they replacing? You (usually) have 3 Elite choices. Can you honestly say, 'I'm leaving the Trueborn / Bloodbrides / Incubi / Grotesques / Harlequins on the shelf, because Mandrakes are a better choice'? Those guys are all able to do things on their own and get better in support, instead of just being 'a halfway decent distraction if you support them, but only if you send a haemonculus out to them, and your wyches are assaulting nearby during nighttime and not through cover and your kabalites soften up the enemy first and they don't have any friends nearby.'

At 2000 points when you get another 3 Elite choices, maybe. But even then they're still taking up a spot from some other elites who actually thought to bring weapons to a battle. It isn't just us: Apparently Phil Kelly isn't too pleased with how they turned out.

Not to say that you can't use them, and fair play to you if you can make it work.

Well, i dont really see the need to fill all Elite slots right now.

I feel more need to fill all troops slots right now, and heavy support and fast atack maybe.

The way the Mandrakes play were a disappointment to me as well to be honest. Though they still fill a very useful; niche in certain army builds (WWP and balanced lists). Though they really don't work in Venom-spam, super-speed, or full-tilt jetbike lists.

As for the two-wych squad tactic, it really is a great strategem. However, what concerns me about it is the need to stack the wyches in the same line, and making one about 1-2" further from the enemy. With another squad (a lone haemonculus, mandrakes, grotesques, whatever) you have a much greater flexibility in your attack vectors. It's a great tactic for sure, and can really maximize the PGL, but for consistency's sake, I'd still prefer a different unit.

As for what they are replacing? Azdrubael hit it on the head for me. I run out of FA and Heavy Support fast, and run one or two elites in most of my lists. It's actually one of the cooler parts about DE IMO, that their FA and HS are so strong.

I'm not really part of the discussion here, but I have to say, Roc, your argumentation is inspiring. Even though you're being attacked from all sides, you keep calm and offer points explaining your point of view beautifully
I for one was anyway going to build and convert at least one squad of every unit in the book, but believe me, you made me consider using them ingame, without feeling bad.

Roc wrote:

or full-tilt jetbike lists.

This whole discussion has made me want to try them, when I run a haemi in my list he often doesn't really have anything to do with his pain token, he has a transport too, hmm sounds perfect!

Roc wrote:

As for the two-wych squad tactic, it really is a great strategem. However, what concerns me about it is the need to stack the wyches in the same line, and making one about 1-2" further from the enemy. With another squad (a lone haemonculus, mandrakes, grotesques, whatever) you have a much greater flexibility in your attack vectors. It's a great tactic for sure, and can really maximize the PGL, but for consistency's sake, I'd still prefer a different unit.

As the person who suggested that tactic, I agree completely, it's cute, and DE can pull it off thanks to their speed, but you will lose raiders/venoms on the way, so it not something you can ever really count on. That doesn't make it bad, it's a great tool to have, but it's one you use when the opportunity arises rather then all the time.

I think Mandrake smight eb an ok sacrificial unit for overwatch. Infiltrate them near the enemy, and move em into position to charge something you want to charge with Wytches. If the enemy shoots them, they just shot a pretty useless unit instead of something important. If they didn't, they cna charge before the Wycthes and take the overwatch shots for them.

So I've been mucking around with some theory-hammer and rolling dice (out of boredom LOL) and I've concluded that Mandrakes are pretty good at assaulting vehicles, esp on T2 if positioned correctly.

A full sqaud of 10 should be able to shave off 3 HP's (they are Str 4 after all) and if you have 10 models you've got a good chance of surrounding the transport and thus eliminating the squad embarked. There you go, pts made back.

As for deployment, well, starting the game 12" away from your opponent and OUT OF LINE OF SIGHT is a big thing. You've achieved 3 things here by deploying this way 1) closed the gap, and applied some heat right on T1, 2) your opponent may divert some fire power away from Raiders/Ravagers/Venoms in order to shoot them or even be forced to move a tank away, thus preventing it form firing and 3) if he gets a mean assault unit out of their ride, to charge the Mandrakes, you've then got an opportunity to point all your big guns at his hammer unit earlier than expected. Win!

Static tanks are the best targets. I'll be running 2 units of 10 in my next games, will report the findings