Hashmal's 'ard Boyz list - Venom SPAAAAAAAAAAAAM

Y'all are going to ask, as I continue to go on at length about this, that, and the other thing: what's this fool taking to 'ard Boyz?

Assuming I get the wind under my sails and soar, I will be fielding the following list.

HQ
2x Archons, Blaster, Venom Blade, Shadowfield

Elites
3x 4 Trueborn, Blasters, Venoms with 2x Cannons and Night Shields

Troops
6x 5 Warriors, Blaster, Sybarite with Blast Pistol, Venoms with 2x Cannons and Night Shields

Fast Attack

3x 6 Reavers, 2 Heat Lances each

Heavy Support

3x Ravagers, 3 DLs, Night Shields, Flickerfields

Pros:
Withering anti-infantry fire that will shut fire bases up in a hurry
Massive number of Lance weapons
Extreme mobility
Did I mention Lances?
Care not a whit if you torpedo my Archons as they're just another Blaster

Cons:
Absolutely no CC
Anti tank is generally shorter in range, thereby requiring careful positioning on my part to flank the opponent and limit return fire

Considering:
Dropping Archons, adding the Duke + 3 Haemonculi to give Reavers FnP off the bat and to give the list an annoying Deep Strike option. Will require fiddling with points, though, as that's more than I'm currently spending in HQ.

Spam list is spammy! I wonder how much use you are gonna get out of blast pistols in the warrior squads as 6" range is poor, unless you swap over to the duke for deepstrike disembark shennanigans. Which leads to the choice if you go for the duke then you can buy 2 haemies without altering your list all that much (or at all). If you stay as 2 archons then your spending 25pts extra per warrior squad for a 6" blast shot and +1 to ld, I think grisly trophies would serve you better. The only way to know is playtest it in both configurations and see how it plays.

You could switch an Archon and a unit of bikers or two units of bikers for a Court with dual flamers and sitting in a Venom.

You could also remove one of the archon's with a heamonculus with a crucible of malediction and a shattershard and then give all ravagers a torment grenade launcher.

Shattershard helps sniping independant characters and the crucible with the torment grenade launcher helps against grey knights and other psykers.

Helps make it a Take All comers list

I'm actually not sure if those kind of army should not go with Scourges... Preferably Haywire Blasters Scourges.

Yeah I had a list similar to this in my head with haywire blaster scourges and the duke

The Strange Dude wrote:

Spam list is spammy! I wonder how much use you are gonna get out of blast pistols in the warrior squads as 6" range is poor, unless you swap over to the duke for deepstrike disembark shennanigans. Which leads to the choice if you go for the duke then you can buy 2 haemies without altering your list all that much (or at all). If you stay as 2 archons then your spending 25pts extra per warrior squad for a 6" blast shot and +1 to ld, I think grisly trophies would serve you better. The only way to know is playtest it in both configurations and see how it plays.

The Blast Pistols are in the list to give each Warrior squad the potential to be a decent AT squad should I absolutely need it. The majority of the time, they will plink with Blasters. When they need to, though, I can zip forward 12", dump them, and unload with the Blaster and Blast Pistol. Think of it as insurance, rather than the focus of the list. I will not sit here and pretend that it's cost effective insurance. It, however, effectively doubles the amount of AT firepower a squad is capable of producing, even though range is a bit restrictive. Getting within 6" is hardly a challenge, however.

Grisly Trophies will not suit me very well as I could give a fig about the Leadership and I definitely will not appreciate leadership bonuses being present on vehicles that are being destroyed - especially since I'll only start taking those checks when the vehicles with that bonus go down.

Only reason I don't want to do 2 Haemonculi is totally OCD-related because I'd leave one Reaver squad nekkid and that makes me twitch. *twitches*

speedfreek wrote:

You could switch an Archon and a unit of bikers or two units of bikers for a Court with dual flamers and sitting in a Venom.

Absolutely not. The last thing this list needs is more anti-infantry.

tmonster wrote:

You could also remove one of the archon's with a heamonculus with a crucible of malediction and a shattershard and then give all ravagers a torment grenade launcher.

Shattershard helps sniping independant characters and the crucible with the torment grenade launcher helps against grey knights and other psykers.

Helps make it a Take All comers list

Pardon me for being a bit blunt, but I fail to see how stacking against one army helps make my list better at taking all comers. I have good answers to Grey Knights (Night Shields, incredible AI firepower best directed against small, elite armies, AT firepower redundancy to remove dudes from transports), and the Crucible of Malediction is questionable, at best.

The Shattershard is damned nice, though.

Perhaps you fear Seer Councils far more than I.

Local_Ork wrote:

I'm actually not sure if those kind of army should not go with Scourges... Preferably Haywire Blasters Scourges.

Contemplated. However, I don't view Blasters as excellent AT - merely good. The Heat Lances provide me the "Thank you sir, may I have another?" punch for busting a transport, gunboat, or Holo-field when I need it busted. Additionally, the Reavers are a damn pain with Bladevanes (don't forget those!) and can provide my vehicles with a cover save whenever I want it - Scourges cannot.

Flickerfields make Cover Saves less important, but a 4+ is better than a 5+.

Liberame wrote:

Yeah I had a list similar to this in my head with haywire blaster scourges and the duke

Not saying it wouldn't work. I also have no Scourge models at the moment, but am 3 jetbikes shy of having all the Reavers ready. From a dollars standpoint, the Reavers are going to win.

Side Note: Am I missing something, or is there no multiquote feature? I would love one, to best reply to you fine gents (and possible gentesses).

Looks cool, and should work on about 80% of armies.

Green Tide, Mech IG, and Mech Eldar will give you fits, however.

I like the Reavers, and I used an Archon as a Blaster delivery system before. They're cool, but your Archons are being geared up to survive, and maybe melee a little, for some reason. If it was me, I'd scrap everything besides the Blaster on each one. That should free up around 70-80 points, in order to allow you to purchase some other cool toys.

I swear by blast pistols, but only in a Duke army, where I know each one will fire 1+ times before dying. Enough on the table, all within range of something, has an impact. I'm not sure if, however, 25 points for +1 leadership and MAYBE a blast pistol shot one day is efficient.

Blaster/Blast Pistol squads should be aggressive, in-your-face AT. If you hang back, they're definitely going to be stranded, most of the time.

Ravagers are Ravagers.

Venoms are cool, until you realize each one only kills 1-2 Orks in cover. Then, you go, "Oooooh, so it's NOT going to liquefy entire squads, even if I focus-fire them.. " And you start missing your extra Darklance on your old boat. Or at least I did.

No one rolls the perfect average in this game (or even approaches it consistently), because 6 turns isn't enough for the odds to balance themselves out, you know? Plan for below-average results with everything, and build accordingly.

Hashmal - indeed, Haywire Blasters are CRAP when it come to actual destroying vehicles, however they have longest range and may harm (disarm) Monoliths/Blessed Raiders.

Note one thing - this army want to shoot, so Reavers kinda don't fit - they get targeted waaaay too ofen to live and tell tale. This is main reason why I don't want to take them, even tho I would like (small ships + jetbikes = natural mix).

Veldrith wrote:

Looks cool, and should work on about 80% of armies.

Green Tide, Mech IG, and Mech Eldar will give you fits, however.

Green Tide has a host of other issues that I'll be able to capitalize on, so I'm not worried about them.

Mech Guard have given me fits for years. There isn't a list out there that'll change that. At least Hydras don't auto-win against my vehicles.

Veldrith wrote:

I like the Reavers, and I used an Archon as a Blaster delivery system before. They're cool, but your Archons are being geared up to survive, and maybe melee a little, for some reason. If it was me, I'd scrap everything besides the Blaster on each one. That should free up around 70-80 points, in order to allow you to purchase some other cool toys.

One of those "Hey, I have the points and nothing I really want to spend them on" moments, so I figured I'd throw a hit of survivability in there just in case I wanted to launch one at something. People go nuts when they see an Archon and dedicate way too much to killing him.

Also, it's 70 points total and I don't have anything else I want to purchase.

Veldrith wrote:

I swear by blast pistols, but only in a Duke army, where I know each one will fire 1+ times before dying. Enough on the table, all within range of something, has an impact. I'm not sure if, however, 25 points for +1 leadership and MAYBE a blast pistol shot one day is efficient.

As I said, I'm toying with the idea of the Duke. I've played Daemons way too long to rely on Deep Strike.

Veldrith wrote:

Blaster/Blast Pistol squads should be aggressive, in-your-face AT. If you hang back, they're definitely going to be stranded, most of the time.

100% agreed.

Veldrith wrote:

Ravagers are Ravagers.

Good. I was afraid they'd be mistaken for bananas.

Veldrith wrote:

Venoms are cool, until you realize each one only kills 1-2 Orks in cover. Then, you go, "Oooooh, so it's NOT going to liquefy entire squads, even if I focus-fire them.. " And you start missing your extra Darklance on your old boat. Or at least I did.

2 Orks on dice.

Veldrith wrote:

No one rolls the perfect average in this game (or even approaches it consistently), because 6 turns isn't enough for the odds to balance themselves out, you know? Plan for below-average results with everything, and build accordingly.

This advice just doesn't work. What do you assume the opponent rolls? Above average? Below average as well, to be synonymous? Direct odds?

Of course the numbers won't approach that - the most fallacious reasoning in probability exercises is the person who tells himself the odds have to balance out. The entire point of probability is that they may never balance out.

However, in order to intelligently build lists, one has to have a reasonable expectation of odds - on both sides of the battlefield. Moving the slider either way weights your army unfavorably towards one aspect over another. For example, if you're that convinced that massed Venom shots will not do anything and pack more Splinter fire in to deal with infantry, you're likely going to fall down on AT as you only have so many points to play with.

I assume odds and also understand the unlikeliness of rolling them. Likewise, I expect my opponent to roll odds. Indeed, the very tenets of balance between armies assumes such things, so it's not exactly unreasonable.

Local_Ork wrote:

Note one thing - this army want to shoot, so Reavers kinda don't fit - they get targeted waaaay too ofen to live and tell tale. This is main reason why I don't want to take them, even tho I would like (small ships + jetbikes = natural mix).

If they're targeting my jetbikes, that's a-ok with me. First turn, the only thing in range will be AT fire. If you want to zap my Jetbikes with autocannons, go ahead! I beg you to do this!

The list is designed without a single lynchpin in it. If you kill anything, I'm okay with that. Multiple layers of redundancy assuage my feelings.

edit: Do want multiquote function. I may also move this list to Raider spam over Venom spam, as I own no Venom models and 6ish Raiders. Overall pricetag might keep me away.

I think no cc is interesting. It's gonna suck if you get caught in a CC you don't want.

I like your list.

I think the Duke is a good choice. I know you aren't a fan of deepstriking Dark Eldar, but it's nice having the option to. I think that the deepstriking list would get the best mileage from your blast pistols (and the Duke's).

Plus, the Duke is awesome. Everyone knows that.

Xelkireth wrote:

I think no cc is interesting. It's gonna suck if you get caught in a CC you don't want.

On the plus side, it'll be over damn quick.

I'm looking at this and trying to get a more out of it, but it is darn efficient.

What I would ask as a thought,

drop all sybarites and blast pistols. From games played ( and I am not an expert) not much for me is within 6 inches unless I intend to assault.

I don't know but you might have enough points to add more reavers into one unit and add a 3rd heatlance.

yes, you lose 6 six inch blast pistols, but gain a bigger reaver unit with a 3rd 18 inch melta shot. Does the trade off make a difference.

You would have to get within 6 to capiltalize on the blast pistols, which may or may not be a good thing, it is situationally dependant.

However, the extra reavers do add extra 'drive by' attacks and wil make 1 of your reaver units have more AT punch for those pesky Land raiders or leman Russ'.

I'm not a fan of the duke for deepstriking. it can have its advantages, but it can bite you hard as well if the reserve rolls don't go your way. Also, IG master of the fleet or whatever he is adding +1 to your reserve rolls will drive you mad. In a double tourny we are preparing for, my partner has one and it makes a huge difference.

my thoughts for consideration. You know your play style much better than I do ie.not at all , so just something to consider or not to.

I am very curious to know how this plays as I hope to go to "ard boys myself and a list very similar to this was something I was also considering.

It's a nice list, nothing that makes one (nor do I believe it was your intention) go "wow that's an interesting combination". Very straight forward in your face, no gimmicks.

Outside of that you do have a good amount of points you could trim off with little impact as mentioned before, that being those Sybarites with Blastpistols. I understand your thought for them but are 6 necessary, at best its debatable and there is limited synergy with the Nightshield upgrade on their Venom. So you either don't get a lot out of the 25 point upgrade or a 10 point upgrade either way I feel its points working against each other for some or all of the battle.

Now the big question is "if you trim" where does it go, because if there isn't room or a better place to spend the points then you're back to square one. I would like to reiterate L_O's suggestion regarding Scourages.

Replacing 1 unit of the Reavers still keeps that units redundancy (i.e. 2x6) but it now opens up an an additional tactical and emotional option for you.

Add in one unit of 6 Scourges with x2 Haywire Blasters. Are they the best AT unit? They are one of the best; now I define AT (Anti-Tank not Anti-Transport) as not just destroying it but effectively removing it as a viable threat and the Haywire Blaster does that 83% of the time regardless of AV and that's best in class. It gives a general an effective means to silence any Tank of your choosing which is a huge advantage and shouldn't be taken lightly. Now the emotional part, it is amazingly frustrating to an opponent to take their best vehicle and have it shut down even more so than Destroying it (as they get over it and adjust their tactics and move on). Round after round of having their vehicle only being able to drive around (typical result) and not shooting while his other units go up in smoke is highly demoralizing. This experience comes from years using a like weapon, the Eldar Vibro cannon. You may be surprised at the amount of players that have never faced one and by the end of the game they hope they never will again. Is this an "I win button" no but it's definitely "An Ace up one's sleeve". IMO they also have great synergy with your Heat Lance equipped Reavers, as well as freeing up those DL's to focus on cracking open transports early on to give your Splinter Cannons something to shoot at, at distance vs Mech-ish lists.

PS. You could also drop it down to 5 Scourges and upgrade one to a Solarite with Blast Pistol (just keeping in theme )

The crucible is just handy to always have available. Against JOTWW space wolves. All librarians and the dread seer council on jetbike.(which are indeed present in my meta). Its just 20 points to get an easy chance to remove psykers.