A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

Yea someday I may experiment with more cents, for now for the sake of the wallet and since they are sooo many points I will just stay with 3 cents and the 2 libbies. Has anyone thought of mixing and matching the weapons load outs when using more centurions? It may be doable depending on the rest of your forces and what you are trying to accomplish. However, it would seem that making them uniforms makes it easier to determine targets for them without wasting half of them at a time. The only immediate idea I could see would be to use lascannons and grav weapons all with hurricane bolters for the chest. I don't know though...just thinking outloud.

As for BA allies, I'm not very interested in using marine rules outside the main book and what forgeworld puts up for free haha. However, Corbulo seems pretty neat indeed.

An interesting statistic ... Torrent of fire will tell you what armies are winning most often (ie, the best) If we want to Look at Allies, out of army combinations that have played at least 20 games. Thid is taken from more than a few tournaments:  

1.) Eldar + Tau winning 71.7%
2.) Tau + Eldar Winning 68.25%
3.) Tau + Space Marines winning 66.67%
4.) Space Marines + Space Marines 65%
5.) Tau + Tau 63%
6.) Chaos Daemons + CSM 63%
7.) Eldar + Dark Eldar 61.8%
8.) Necrons + CSM 61.8%
9.) Necron + Tau 60%
10.) Tau 59.2%

As you may note Tau dominate the top five but DelDar are certainly competitive. I was a bit surprised that Daemons did not make the top ten as a standalone army ( neither flying circus or screamerstar win enough despite screamerstar being very capable against Tau in particular). Now with grav SM entering the scene and the new smurf codex, SM are reemerging as a force.

Now we do not have the stats on Riptides, Wraithknights and Heldrakes but I would venyurev to guess that appear in a lot of these builds. I would also guess that DelDar has a few beastpacks in their winning lists but a seer council was most prominent. Necrons are way down now at eighth spot. They do not have a real deathstar or a dominant MC.

Bear in mind too, that what the top players choose will skew the statistics. If the majority of vets at tournaments decide to go Tau/Eldar then of course its percentages will be up there. Many experienced players will avoid daemons at large events opting for a list that is less random and that can self implode, lol. That said I believe this is a pretty good approximation of power rankings among the various codex forces.

If we look at raw numbers without considering allies we get this as the top five codex.


1 Eldar (63.96%)
2 Tau Empire (62.81%)
3 Chaos Daemons (59.42%)
4 Necrons (54.6%)
5 Sisters of Battle (50%)

This interesting. DE do not rank at all without Eldar. Space Marines are not in the list either. Here is an app that will show some results ...

http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/stats/armies

register for free at Torrent of Fire if you want to keep updated.

What are tourneys this sample is gathered from?

Torrent of Fire takes the most recent tournament and GT resukts from all over th world. Check out the website. Here are the last two event results ...

Indiana 40k championship won by NOVA Invitational winner Aaron Aleong with his Seer Council Eldar/DE beat Team America 2013 member Alan Bajramovic. Eldar again won the day, going 12-2 as the most represented army.

In Australia, Kirby of 3++ fame Kirby came in second (using Tau/Eldar), with Jason Collins and his Tau/Eldar taking home top honors. Overall, Chaos Space Marines were highest in attendance, but finished 8-11-3, while Eldar were 13-3-0.

http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/

Hope that answers your questions.

On an entirely different note we were discussing in chat whether BA was still viable ...

BA HQ: Mephiston 250

SM HQ: Tigerius 165
BA Elite: Corbulo 105
SM HS: 5 Centurion Devs, Grav Cannons, Omniscope 420

SM HQ: Chapter Master, Artificer Armor, Jump Pack, Shield Eternal, Power Axe 230
BA Elite: Sang Priest, Jump Pack 75
BA Troop: 10 Assault Squad, 2 Meltagun, PF 235

SM Troop: 3x Scout Squad, Snipers, Heavy Bolter, Camo Cloaks 270
SM Fortification: Aegis Defense Line, Quad Autocannons 100

So you have your hammer and anvil here. You are dividing your army into three groups. Although Meph cannot join the asault squad he can and will be right on their heels. The Cents will walk up behind with Tiggy and Corbulo. The list will cause some problems for a lot of the current meta. Tigerius and Cents are beastly - make no mistake about it and they have an average of 27.5" range. They will be firing full steam by turn two. It really is a pick your poison list. you will have to focus fire on something and pray that something else does not destroy your whole force. Now grav spam will be a threat. But hey ... you will always run into something that is rock to your scissors even playing TauDar.

So I was told in chat that Ork Flash Gitz are actually better than cents with Tiggy ... I had mentioned that making a fun and yet competitive list for Orks is proving hard. Not impossible. So the challenge was to find a use for Gitz. With enough of them and ignoring cover (no jink save on flyers, 4+ on vehicles etc.) and with the Kaptin and a Boss well ... that is one expensive deathstar. Not much left for troops, lol. So they better be durable!

So I made a list ... truly it is a bad list. Shootas and Lootas outperform Gitz by a wide margin, point for point. I would not play it against any serious competition. It will get rocked. But it is fun and has some merit here and there.


Bad Moon Rising Deathstar Gitz


HQ: Warboss, Mega Armour, Attack Squig, Cybork, Bosspole
-Sweet! Tough! Stick with some Mega-nobs

HQ: Warboss, PK, Eavy amour, Cybork, Kombi-Scorcha, Bosspole
- Them Flash Gitz may need da backup! The Kombiskorcha will help with the hordes and cover saves. He goes with them in wagon

Elites: 9 Lootas
Elites: 9 Lootas
- Always take 9, as either way the enemy will have to do 3 wounds instead of just 2 for morale tests.

Troops: 3 Mega Nobz, Kombi-skorcha, Trukk, Reinforced Ram
Troops: 3 Mega Nobz, Kombi-skorcha, Trukk, Reinforced Ram
- Again, we are talking about a morale test at one dead at 3 or 4, may as well save a ton of points and go with 3. These are like tactical nukes anyway! Put on a Reinforced Ram, best upgrade for a trukk imho as the fastest way from point a to point b is a straight line. So you can hide it in cover if you get second turn, or race it screaming through terrain right into that squad of Long Fangs
Troops: 10 'Ard Boyz, Nob, PK, Bosspole Trukk
- Now they all have trukks and speed, which means more tactical advantages. Even if you do deploy them on your home objective, you can use the empty truck as a mobile wall for your battlewagon. You can use it as a wall for the deployed MANZ, and a harassment unit, or to tank shock units off of objectives (remember that reinforced ram?)


Heavy Support: 10 Flash Gitz
More Dakka, More Shooty, More Blasta, Painboy, Cyborks, Ammo Runts x3, Kaptain Badrukk
Battlewagon, Deff rolla, Big shoota x2, Kannon

- In defense of Gitz - and this is ignoring the fact that they are full of fail in general -

This is a 745 point unit WITHOUT the Warboss. Ammo runts, give you rerolls that Flash Gitz desperately need. The Gitz need the wagon and they need all the weapons so an immobilized weapon does not totally take it out of play. We are looking at the Ork paladinstar here. Over the course of a game expect to lose two of those Gitz to 'gets hot'. But the unit itself is tough as nails. All its shots ignore cover too and many will bypass meq saves (66% chance each turn). You have 50% chance to bypass even Teq saves. Of course their BS is atrocious like most Orks but you are playing Orks. Like most of my crazy lists there is some method to the madness.

You will take out flyers with the combination of Lootaz and Gitz. You will take out tanks if you get close with AP2 Nobs. But the list has holes. A lot of holes. You have very few troops tough as they are. You are relying very heavily on a unit that with the Warboss is 825 points to take out your opposition. It is unlikely to do that much damage ... but it can tie up 1200 points of opposition trying to deal with it hopefully.  

The Lootas and Ard boyz and Mega nobs are very important to this list. Those lootas have to distract and hopefully destroy a few units all game. Those meganobs and ard boyz should be cleaning up remanant squads all game and grabbing objectives. That Gitzstar needs every unit in the list supporting it. So the units that support it have to be capable of damage on their own.

... How useful is psychological warfare …

This is a high risk tactic at times. Experienced tournament players rely on good positioning movement, and proper deployment. They will quickly realize what needs ro be deployed and what needs to be reserved. Therefore you need to bait him into taking a risk by taking a risk yourself when faced with a bad match up. We use deception to accomplishthis. We feint our intentions trying to make the opponent react to a move that he thinks we are trying to pull off when we are working towards a different long term goal. We hope to get him to pre-emptively position his forces that we are actually manipulating. It is mantra oft repeated by me … bait … then crush. It does not always work.

How do we play on an opponent's mind?
1) scout a scary unit turn one that is bait - Bloodthirster, WK, etc.
2) play drop pods with plenty of melta/plasma
3) threat overload - 'MTO'
4) bring some big scary units - Riptides, WK, GUO, Draigo, Calgar, CM on a bike
5) cover the board in disposable troops
6) have some scary units in reserve to fly on or outflank - 50 conscripts, screamers, heldrake
7) unit saturation - lots of MSU 'must be dealt worth units
8)field your transports empty
9) field only very fast units - refuse flank or reposition quickly
10) place objectives in strange spots

These are a few of the tactics you 'can' employ. DE/Eldar are very adept at fielding lists that can take advantage of many of the above tactics. Beast packs, WKs, Talos, fast skimmers, flyers, 'mto' lists … Think about it when you design your lists.

4a. Please refrain from double posting. You may "bump" a post every 48hrs if you feel you are not getting responses. Double posts in project logs are acceptable. /Your friendly mod SS[/color]

As always Eg provides some good words to read.  Today I am going to talk about a unit I don't see used much and one that I'm hoping to try to use in my future Marine list.

The unit in question is the Scout Bike Squad (SBS). So these guys I would say are just as good if not better than regular bikes. The only real difference is wargear, saves, and special rules. In these regards this essentially makes them equal...a give and take between these three things. However, the best part is that they are 3 pts cheaper per model which is nice.

Diving into their wargear, you can take up to 3 astartes grenade launchers, can take cluster mines, and come stock with bolt pistols, shotguns, and the bikes twin-linked bolters. Lots of yummy weapons there. The nade launchers I believe are pretty sweet and could easily lay down some punishing fire. They have lots of utility with 3 weapons to choose between and the best part they are still T5. You are best off getting them close and screwing with your enemy, perhaps even assault  a weaker squad. (If you go white scars you get hit and run which makes this tactic much more viable).

Lets also take into account you get to cluster mine a piece of terrain after deployment...this is amazing and allows you to score potentially easy kills without much effort. Furthermore, you can infiltrate/scout them into a good forward position. This is especially useful if you want to deepstrike units since you can take a locator beacon.

Ultimately they are a decently priced option that gives some tactile flexibility and can potentially scare your opponent into focusing on them if you put them close. Depending on what chapter tactics you want to use you get other tactile abilities out of them. For me I would use a squad in my ultramarines detachment so I could get the bonuses where I could not for my red scorpians portion.

What are your thoughts on scout bikers?

Edit: There are a bunch of options in the FA department for marines and it really depends on your list to be honest. I want a unit that can have a locator beacon but remain versatile if I don't end up needing it for my future centurion combo. The grenade launcher has frag or krak rounds: F:S3/AP6 rapidfire, blast and K:S6/AP4 rapidfire. I really like this weapon, especially rapid firing krak rounds, useful against tougher models and even against light tanks. Furthermore you could give the sarge a meltabomb and have you're marry way with a tank. You can see my last marine list for a way in using them as a simple squad of 3. However I'm thinking that squads of 4-6 would be ideal as you can take all 3 grenade launchers and have an effective squad size. If you go 10 you can combat squad them AND mine two terrain pieces which would be awesome. If you manged to fill your FA slots with 30 scout bikes you could mine a potential 6 pieces of terrain and make your opponent cry with the random death.

I'd be worried about the not scoring part. Since SBS is compared almost always to regular bike squad. All the other parts are equal somewhat but not the scoring.

Ability to take three special weapons regardless of the squad size is also a good thing.

So I have a game coming up this weekend at 1000 points and I want totest how good grav guns perform and if a storm talon is a good buy. I will be playing Necs ... I will use my IH as a standalone as it is too difficult to fit in allies at 1000 points.

Iron Hands  

250: Chapter Master; Artificier Armour; Shield Eternal; Auspex; Power Fist; Bike  

120: Dreadnought: 2 TL Autocannons; Smoke Launchers; Searchlight

145: 5 Bikers: 2 Graviton Guns; Combi-Graviton
154: 4 Bikes: Melta, Flamer, Attack Bike, Multi-melta
084: 5 Scout Squad: 4 Sniper Rifles; Missile Launcher; Camo Cloaks

145: Storm Talon Gunship: Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Typhoon Missile Launcher

100: Thunderfire Cannon

As you can see it is NOT tailored for beating Necs. But I want to use a tac list and see what it does. I wxpect that the Ani barges will cause me headaches but meh. I wil;l try and immobilize them. Warriors I'm not too worried about. Wraiths will be fun to play against. Night Scyhtes will have to be my target for the storm. We will see. At 1000 points I'm just not a good list maker. I'm so used to playing at higher levels. I'll post a report later in the week.

---

Batrep summary

HQ: Imotekh the Stormlord

Troop: 10x Immortals
Troop: 5 Warriors w/ Night Scythe

Fast Attack:5 Wraiths, one w/ coil, the rest with pistols

Heavy Support: 2x Ani Barge

As soon as I saw his list I was happy. I was fine going second as well. He put Imotekh with the Immortals, and the Wraiths and Barges central. He rushes forward at my troops and decides the Thunderfire is trouble. He targets all his shooting there . I'm sitting in ruins and the scouts are in terrain, btw,. His shooting does nothing. It's nightfighting but I do et to target those Wraiths regardless with the thunderfire and the bikes sp[eed forward and target one barge. Bloody nightfighting put in a bad position but meh. What could I do. I had to get close. I kept moving my dread up and firing, kept trying to shoot the warriors and barges on the far side of the wraiths and kept targeted the wraiths another time with my thunderfire - amazing as it also scatters and nearly finsihes off the immortals. When his scythe comes on my Talon does too and that was it for the scythe. By turn five I've lost a squad of bikes but my CM squad has taken down both barges, his immortals are gone and so are his warriors. We call it a game. Honestly never felt threatened at all.

- future revision -

Overall I was well pleased with the iist. I plan on adding th following units for 1250 if I can get in another game ...

MotF, Conversion Beamer; Bike - 130
5 Tactical Squad, Plasma Cannon, Rhino

I will field the rhino empty and just have it cover my bikes as i advance  and/or as cover only for my plasma cannon squad. The MotF just belongs in an IH force. He brings an extra thrat to the table and can join either bike squad to cover his butt.


@ Ligs ...
So I've seen Tiggy used with 3 cents in a strom raven as a possible mini-deathstar. You have POTMS on the raven (2 targets) and split fire on the cents(2 targets) and it costs 460. Also if they try to skyfire the raven it happens after you drop off the cents - assuming they pen the raven anyway. So no S10 hits.

I've also been considering Assault devs (if i can manage to magnatize the kit) and use them in a storm raven with tiggy. That way I can still confine it to the ally contingent. The best part is that its an assault vehicle so you are golden to go full tilt into anything you want. If I did still take Loth he would go do his own thing.

Sorry guys been out of it a while.  Was asked on my reflections so far so….

A LOOK INTO MADNESS

For the past 2 months i've been working a 2k DFOC list and of course theories that go with it.  I've noticed that it's a freaking lot of boats.  I mean, jesus, check page 9 of this thread if you haven't seen them.  A lot of the noticed weaknesses are also benefits.

MSU is pretty much an auto lose when it comes to kill point games we all know this, but the amount of fire power that this list brings to the table is stupid.  Also this list mitigates the amount of damage it can take and the threat levels of each transport with sheer numbers.  In a few games after some of my transports had been popped or injured and some squads of wyches had died, i noticed i was using screening tactics combined with a hide the marble type of game.  Quite a few of my MSU units died so fast that my opponents were more often than not left out in the middle of no mans' land ready to get shot.  And if they didn't have a follow up unit to take care of my injured unit, they had to deal with random haywire grenades and another objective capper.

I also never realize the killing power of a venom + 5 warriors, to any infantry type unit.  Like I knew what they did, and what was average, but when you have a 5man warrior squad (all rifles) and a venom backing them up.  I was getting as many wounds from the warrior squad (double tapping) as i was getting from the venom itself.  the little things

With the mass fire power of this list, I noticed that I wasn't pumping out a whole lot of AP2 weaponry.  I've considered putting some dizzies on the raiders.  Which would have made 2 of my games a TON easier on my end, stupid horde marine lists.

I did get a game in against an Eldar list that had 4 serpents 2 squads of war walkers, a knight, and a few other things. Hindsight, I think I deployed WAY incorrectly. i wanted to protect my Ravagers when i should have protected my wyche raiders. Serpent spam… hurts…

Wyches, they're awesome. I did have to juke over watch with these things a lot, they do die easily. But what in our codex says that we're gonna have an easy time? Most of my eggshell game was with these ladies. Don't forget that you can throw haywire grenades at jets!

I get to the ravagers, and they did their job. They threw out the lance where i needed it, but most of the time i was either using them to screen bolted fire or fail sniping distant targets. STill, they're a work horse.

The Dark Gate, aaaawwwww yeeeeeeaaaaa  this baby is my horde killer. I've racked up some serious kills with this thing, i'm ranking it as good as the Shatter shard (little over costed) but it happens.

*Still writing, stupid Mandrake Slave Drivers*

Just for those that do not know the DFOC is a raider rush/spam list with MSU troops. I love your analysis. Here is a DE list that harks back to 4th and 5th edition DE lists when vehicles were not as vulnerable overall, uses no aliies and still competes with all the new codexes out there. I am also intrigued that the dark gate is working so well. Thank you for the update.

Now another list that uses this many skimmers can be seen here as well.

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t8154-the-void-stalkers-claim-the-throne-of-skulls

Instead of raider rush this list uses the early 6ed venom spam approach and it also continues to wreck havoc. It appears that any of the lists we built when the codex was initially released are still valid, do not require ally support and are still winning even with the influx of the new Eldar, Tau and Marine codex. Makes one pause and think.

The only thing this list could have issues with is massed S5-S7 weaponry. My reason for this thought is that wyches die SOOOO quickly from a blown up boat if you are unlucky to get an explosion result. However, due to sheer volume of boats, and jink saves you will most likely wreck a lot of the time. However, if you go second and someone has the ability to throw some real firepower down range...no jink save you could be in deep crap. Imperial guard easily have this ability and I'm curious to see how their new codex will affect this. Otherwise though I like the boat spam because it looks awesome and as long as you go first I feel like it has a lot of fun potential.

A List for M'Lady

Dark Eldar 1200
105: Baron Sathonyx
450: 2x 15 Wyches, Haywire, Shardnet (on one squad), Hekatrix,  Agoniser, PGL
270: 5 Beast Masters - 10 Khymerae, 6 Razorwing Flocks
220: 2x Talos, TL Liquifier Gun, TL Splinter Cannon
155: Razorwing Jetfighter, 2x Dark Lances, 4x Monosythe Missiles, Splinter Cannon

So I was asked on chat how I would play DE at a lower points level. Above is the list I would use. So immediately it becomes apparant that you are playing a beast pack deathstar. The unit, even without a Farseer to make it fearless, is truly frightening. With the Baron it has stealth, hit and run, and PGL. I would when points go up add in a Farseer with Shard UP Ur Anus, a bike squad and a WK dropping a Talos.

Now wyches are much maligned in 6ed. But follow me here. They can assaut whatever the beast pack charges first ( so no overwatch) and finish off tanks, infantry and the like with ease. The Taloi flank the pack and hopefully get pain tokens when finishing anything off ... again charge with pack, hit and run, shoot with Talos and charge.

Now when played by Lady Malys it is imperative that you make zooming noises when coming in from reserve with your Razor ... this psychological ploy will freeze your opponent ith fear and lead to his undoing. Notice the SC on the Razors. Against most targets they are simply the better choice.

The list is full of little tricks you can pull off. Use them all and you have the means to win with it.

Thanks for the advice! I will of course be sure to report on the use of the special Zooming Noises Rule should I try this out

ligolski wrote:

The only thing this list could have issues with is massed S5-S7 weaponry.

Not 'could have', does.

With so many vehicles you HAVE to annihilate units to being maimed enough to not function, or destroyed outright. Use your stunned results only 2 armies have a reliable way to get rid of stunned from their vehicles. The rest have to invest 10 points or 15 (CSM 2+ negates).

With going second I've noticed that if i use the ravagers to protect the wych raiders i more often than not will save my raiders. I've also done raiders screening and that works too.

My only tip for using the Dark Gate, is to aim for the worst save you can find, (khorne dogs love it.)

M'Lady, zooming noises are paramount in fielding jets.

Zooming noises will have to be the first article I write when we get a big shiny blog :Pjk

I do a 2500 pt game on friday against a friend (different than lately). I will have to scale up my 1850 list. Due to this, I am going to try to pay special attention to the nuances of fielding up while trying to attain victory. I'd like this to be an article I post in the new blog though as it is a substantial subject.

On another note TJ (jesse from team SG) will be testing the Flash Gitz list and doing a video report some time in the future. We are going to see if it can beat TauDar (might as well pick the toughest list) - I will keep you guys posted once the game is played and the youtube batrep up. I'm curious how it will do in the hands of a very experienced Ork player (he has been playing Orks over ten years). Should be at lest interesting.

@ Ligs
You are starting a blog. Great. Post a link when it is up.

You are part of it silly!


Anyways...


So I've also have been looking at the new Inquisitor Dex and I like what I see. There are some really cool wargear options that can make an inquisitor pretty fun. I'm already thinking of trying to make a mini deathstar using an inquisitor, deamonhosts, and priests. Truly meant for close combat in what I'm thinking. However, the deamonhosts simply add the a better toughness to the unit and some neat abilities, all of which are nice in the right situations. The priests first ability to reroll all armor and invulns in CC is wonderful. I know everyone in their grandmother wants Coteaz but I like to do things my own way most of the time. I'm thinking Ordo Xenos to get a hold of rad grenades and psychotroke grenades to boost my CC and then use a power sword. My other thought is to use Ordo Malleus and use a deamonblade...because its hilarious thats why. Either way would be a lot of fun.

As an alternative loadout (but not deathstar) I could take Malleus and take a hellrifle and take a bunch of pychics...hide them behind and aegis or in cover and munch up stuff using 36" weapons that have the power to be quite devestating. If you went psychic and got lucky on your roll and got ignore cover in divination, you could reap terrible terrible havoc. This would actually be fun using Tiggy as well if you wished to buff the squad up to make it more durable. Furthermore, the Jakero guys can actually affect the psychic power since witchfire attacks are counted as assault weapons. You could potentially have a 48" super blast being shot out each turn. This does have some serious hitches though. The psykers' LD blows and you could easily lose the entire squad in one turn. But hey it could be worth it. 50 points worth of psykers is pretty cheap for such a powerful attack. Perhaps add in 1 more to get the AP1 if you want to go after tanks. Ultimately, you don't need an inquisitor to baby sit this unit if you don't want. I'd say spending 95 pts (6 psykers and 1 jakero) or 120 (6 psykers and 2 jakero) would be pretty fun to sit down range and blast stuff apart. Your inquisitor could join them or go for the CC route like I suggest above.

As a last thought I want to briefly discuss acolytes. They are pretty neat in the versatility in wargear they can take. Of course if you start loading them up they can get expensive, but there are some good choices here that you can make. You can make them 3++ tanks by taking storm shields on 3 of them. Or you can take special weapons on 3 of them. Furthermore, they all have access to some more basic weapons...which includes hot shot lasguns. You can essentially make storm troopers minus the special rules for pretty cheap. Heck you can even give them power armor if you want, though I'd only go to carapace to get around the large amount of AP5 out there. Add in a jakero or two if you want and now you have some decent AP3 fire power.


Lots of options in the book, so stay tuned as I eventually decide what to do with my old inquisitor from 4th edition!

Tournament obsevations  on Dark Eldar

So we are not discussing the list you take down to your LGS. It might be a strong list but we will look at what the top players are bringing. First you need to except that the best players are not fielding pure DE. Eldar has too much to offer to ignore. Then we except that there are two power builds commonly placing top ten. One uses a Seer council and one uses a beast pack ( the odd GT player will field a dual deathstar but they have yet to really shine).

Let's look at some of the HQs. By far the most common DE Hq is the Baron. Now he was under the handicap of not being fearless but now with a Farseer toting shard of anaris that problem has been solved. At 105 points he is too good for top players to pass on. Now OrdoSean (king of the Beastpack) has been toying with other Beastpack configurations using different HQs but overall he is still the most frequently fielded.

There is nothing wrong with an Autarch and Grots. Reavers are an excellent fast attack choice. But we are looking at results here. Top players are result driven. They look at what wins and incorporate it into their builds. Another example is Taloi. I like taloi. They can be fear inspiring sitting mid table. But a WK is worth the cost of two Taloi in every competitive build. That is just how the tournament scene works. Venoms are good, wave serpents perform, crimson hunter trumps razorwing. So all these elements are often fitted in.

When we look at units for competitive play we realize quickly the Warp Spiders are simply better than Scourges. So play Scourges at your LGS. At a tournament take Beastpacks or Warp Spiders. I'm sure this post will get some flak. Even I don't like playing builds that push me in a direction that fielding some of my favorite units are less than optimal. So go ahead. But I think that most top level tournament players will tend to avoid high risk/high reward builds. Let the discussion start.

When it comes to competitive play you need to be able to compete against the netlists effectively. Ultimately, this means you need to out outplay netlists. In rarer cases you can get away with something totally different because it may surprise someone. However if you stick to the general ways of competitive play, you will end up looking at your codex in this light: what units are always good, which are situational, and which are bad/not good enough? From here you build with the good perhaps touch the situational.

The same applies to allied forces you may or may not choose. What boosts my army for a good price point? or What can make a nasty combo that 99% of the time will do what it needs to do. Competitive play from my perspective (as a non-competition player) is what units do I bring that are always good, always do damage and do so at a justifiable points value, without other overly detrimental risks. There is little faith high risk/high reward armies in competitive play essentially. There can be but its tough to guarantee you will do well if some of your super units may require some good dice rolls along the way (deamons I think fall into this category from what I can gather).

So what DE units work well in competition? Depends if you want to main DE or ally them. Eg will tell you Dar with allied DE is the way to go...and the standings prove his point as well as the strength of the lists and Eldar in general...they are just too good to not take main when it comes to competition. As allies, you will see beasts, some token troop unit probably and an HQ that ices the cake such as the Baron. There are other options though I doubt you will see them much. Now going DE primary changes things up a bunch. The same units are viable as in the allied slot (beasts, etc), but now you need to fill up your toolbox to play the rock, paper, scissors game well.

What is in the DE toolbox? Poison...obviously, haywire grenades, beast packs, open topped transports, pain tokens, 2++ shadowfields, etc. Lots of options. I'm not going to tell you to always take x,y,z. That is for you to decide what you're list needs because each list and player is unique in terms of access to models and play style. There are some units I would tell you to generally not take in a list because I find them to be subpar in most lists...mandrakes, succubi, bloodbrides...though that is my personal opinion.

So what the heck am I saying after all this ranting... For competitive play you need to think long and hard about unit choices. Analyze the DE toolbox carefully and how one thing works with another. Your force needs to act as one to maximize its potential. Scattered thoughts will only serve to confuse your abilities and tactics. Every unit needs an first, second, and third plan. The list needs to be able to wreck Tau, TauDar, Dar but still handle IG, orks, and necrons if as easy a fashion. Of course this is hard...but you want to win the competition!  There are lists out there that focus on DE as primary and have done well, I will leave it to Eg or whoever to bring up a specific one for us to analyze.

I'm going to preface this response. Checking torrent of fire statistics - DE has not been played without allies twenty times yet. No stats are therefore posted on win loss ratios. However Eldar main w/ DE allied is winning at A 9:5 ratio. With Dark Eldar primary and Eldar allied they lose at a 3:4 ratio.

Ligs -

If you go back in the thread there are examples of tournament winning lists. There are a few points that have been glossed over in your response. First of all tournament players will seek an advantage and go after what is weakest in your list. Let me simplify an example. Say you are taking Eldar main. You are likely using 2 - 3 wave serpents. So if you are playing DE as your detachment to bring a venom? Simply put, no. It is easy to target it and gain first blood, you will likely lose the troops it is carrying. It is just too fragile to fit in the list by itself and really is not adding to the overall efficiency of the list.

If you are bringing DE main you might want to spam those venoms though and have the important ones shielded by others - an Archon in a transport will be prioritized as an example, as again your opponent can gain both first blood and warlord by doing so.

I love upgrades in casual play - shockprows, nightshields, etc. But realistically an AV10 vehicle needs to alpha strike. Once i start investing in too many upgrades for an overall fragile unit my points get eaten up quickly and my overall efficiency goes down. Dropping upgrades on your vehicles likely will get you an extra one and 12 extra shots a turn. It increases your alpha strike potential and your threat saturation. This is how tournament players think. Nightshields can be good but they are SITUATIONAL.

You discussed allies above. It is about synergy more than just what is or is not an efficient unit. Your allies need to increase the overall efficiency of the list. If you are going DE main you need Eldar allies that threaten from the first turn and and/or elements that buff your DE. This means bikes from reserves (these are so good that they are almost always targeted by tournament players on arrival from reserves), farseers ( our only source of psychic powers), wave serpents (doh) and warp spiders (they have the speed for early damage and can be DSed). With Eldar main you want an HQ that buffs a unit (hence Baron's [popularity), a cheap troop, and a hammer of some sort ( reavers/beast pack). Of course these are general observations but look at the winning lits and see how the follow this general template.  

We will look at the dichotomy of casual strong versus truly competitive in the future. I tend to field lists with units that do not follow the highly competitive tournament templates quite often but that does not mean i'm not aware of how a competitive list functions. My altered and new go to DelDar list is:


DelDar MTO List

Eldar Primary

155: Farseer, Jetbike, Shard of Anaris
102: 2x of 3 Windrider Jetbikes
061: 3 Windrider Jetbikes, Shuriken Cannon
220: 20 Guardian Defenders, 2 Brightlances
152: 8 Warp Spiders
480: 2x Wraithknight

Dark Eldar Detachment
105: Baron Sathonyx
200: 15 Wyches, Haywire, Hekatrix, PGL
270: 5 Beast Masters - 10 Khymerae, 6 Razorwing Flocks
105: Talos, TL Liquifier Gun, TL Splinter Cannon

(1850)


So no unnecessary upgrades here. In fact no DE transports at all. The list misses wave serpents but I have effectively neutered all my opponents AT/AA. This is not a terrible thing. But I've been hurt by list that use 8-9 Broadsides with high yield missile pods and SMS that can sit back and decimate my ground troops whilst baiting me with quick Eldar units that fall back quickly. TRi-heldrake lists are a pain to play against also. In truth a few wave serpents and some warp spoiders would be necessary to get the list up to a competitive level. But this list still does well because I have a brilliant deathstar that threatens early and sufficient dakka to make life difficult on my opponent and great psychic boosts. It is a threat overload list taken to a silly extreme that attempts to pincer and threaten both flanks.

Guardian Cup VI was won by Dark Eldar/Eldar. Remember how I prefaced this response? This list bucked the odds. Here is his list:

   Dark Eldar

   Baron Sathonyx

   x5 Warriors, Venom
   x5 Warriors, Venom
   x5 Warriors, Venom
   x5 Beastmasters, Clawed Fiend, x5 Khymera, x6 Flock
   Ravager, Nightshields
   Ravager, Nightshields

   

   Eldar

   Farseer, Jetbike, Spirit Stone, Shard of Anaris
   x5 DA, Serpent with TL-Scatter Laser, Shuri Cannon
   x5 DA, Serpent with TL-Scatter Laser, Shuri Cannon
   x7 Warp Spiders
   Wraithknight

So wave serpents, beast pack, warp spider, psychic buffs - very nice. I would have changed a few small things but who can argue with results? Expect the GT guys to review this list ... winning lists evolve.

So I played a 2500 pt game against space wolves with allied IG last night. It was short edge deployment with 5 objectives. We placed terrain using the placement rules (not my cup of tea honestly just doesn't look as nice). In the end I lost but I felt in general I played fairly well. I made a couple larger mistakes and had some bad luck in some cases.

Here's a few pics of the battlefield and our initial deployments.

So here we see that the table is fairly bare except in my area where I placed some bigger pieces for me to hide and prevent him from podding too much into my base.


His deployment in his zone is a classic IG castle with devestator squad with lots of missile launchers and a rune priest...who got ignore cover...that was bad.


Now for my deployment. The land speeder is a venom with wracks and the jump marines are warp spiders...yay for proxies! So I felt my deployment was alright, nothing really bothered me about it. In reserve was my 6 reavers and my razorwing (kitted out for AI). The purple flagged boats were empty of their warriors and the red one had my grots, haemie, and archon. The wave serpent help my 5 WG with cannons and a spiritseer.

My friend went first and brought in 2/4 of his pods right on my right flank...perfect that is where my best units were ready to pounce. He didn't do much damage with them at all. However his devestators with ignore cover launched flak missiles at my wyches...and destroyed all of them but the hekatrix. That hurt. His manticore hit my serpent hard stunning it and taking 2 hullpoints off. He also wrecked both my empty raiders...yay for not putting warriors in them!

Here is where things got good and bad. I launched my army on the right flank at those pods and shot them up. And of course...they broke at the end of that phase and fell back...both of them...putting me out of assault range...epic sad face.  And now for large mistake 1: I had my WK throw himself out towards the IG line putting himself in area terrain but right in view of every freaking lascannon and missile launcher saying, "Hey shoot me!" Turn 2, he died...simple as that barely doing anything for the game.

Turn 2 on come the reserves he has guys that manage to outflank from behind...redmaw? and bunch of doggies and some other squad. His termies come in by a pod as well right where the wyches started. I dealt with them accordingly using my WG but my backfield at this point is a mess and I'm taking heavy casualties up front because of the 2 squads that survived and the long range fire power being thrown at me.

This continues I beat up all the guys in the pods eventually except for his last pod that came in turn 4. My reserves only came on T4 as well which sucked, I could have used them previously. Ultimately, it kept playing out till I was dead.

I made a few mistakes, some units did well others did not but it did highlight some stuff I'd like to do with my army in the near future.

*******************************
I like warp spiders, they were fun and very agile on the board, they lasted until the end virtually. Also I feel that a farseer would be very beneficial in many circumstances over the spiritseer (obviously) and am now thinking of converting my reavers into windrider jetbikes (or be able to magnetize between the two) and then get beasts. Beasts have been found to be very effective this edition and it fits my 'M-O' with my army. Beasts, warpspiders, grots, and talos sound like a lot of fun. I'm gonna be working through a list tonight and see what I can come up with with this in mind. I'll be digging for good beast layouts that aren't too overly large and point heavy. I'm thinking of using space wolve puppies for my beasts


********************************

So here is a new 1850 list I'm thinking about trying to achieve. Something to change things up in my army which will be fun modeling, collecting, and playing I hope.

Furthermore, if I go this route I will not need to do too much more collecting except for the beasts and warp spiders. I think I will convert my own farseer using bits from WG and 1 of the 3 reaver jetbikes I have yet to put together. That leads me to my other jetbikes, I will convert those to Eldar bikes for the troop choice(s) I need for the allied slot. I think this is reasonable...all I need to do is swap the guns ideally and probably the heads as well so they don't look like full on reavers.

So here is the new list idea:

DE Primary:
Archon (VB, shadowfield, huskblade)
Haemie (liquifier)
4 grots (liquifier) in a boat
2x 10 warriors (SC)
5 wracks (liquifier) in Venom (dual SC)
Beast Pack (2 masters, 10 kymerae, 4 flocks)
2x Talos (SC, liquifier)

Eldar Allies
Farseer (jetbike, shard of anaris)
2x 3 jetbike squadron (s. cannon)
10 warp spiders
Wraithknight (dual cannons)

So I dropped the WG for the beasts, which I think is fine and with a Farseer potentially way more dangerous. In larger games I could add the WG and their serpent and mess around with the points to get what I want. I am fairly light on the troops and they are on foot, except for the jetbikes which would be in reserve for lat objective grabbing. I have MTO (multiple targets of opportunity) which Eg. and I believe to be a solid method at list building. My AT is lacking for sure, but WK will work that problem out hopefully and grots can help as well. The only thing that is nagging me about this list is my choice to use wracks...it is strange and I'm not sold. I feel bad not using them since I just got them though I need to put them together and paint them along with their venom. Is there such thing as a guild addition to a list? Though the haemie does add the nice extra pain token for the grots which love a little extra beating ability. Ultimately I feel that the wracks can be a unit that just gets ignored and go tie something up and be a little tougher while holding an objective.


Thoughts?

ok gents, I saw in chat asking how I did in my tournament today. For those of you who dont know, it was.

baron
beasts with 9 kymerae and 6 razorwings
3x 5 wyches with HWG in venoms (1 with trophies)
Farseer
9 Warp Spiders
5 DA in Wave Serpents with scatter lasers.

First game was against Space Marines he had 2 squads of vangard vets whirwind a trip las pred 2 razorbacks with 5 guys in each. Was an enteresting game, I missed an assault with the beast star which later caused me to lose them. But on the plus side, being overly aggressive with the wyches caused my opponent to lose a razorback, the whirlwind, and the las pred. Giving me the win.

Game 2 was against a friend of mine that I rode with to the tournament. 3 riptides 3 broadsides with 4 missle drones. Mission was Kill points... yea. NEXT!

Game 3 was against orks. 2 squads of 20 shoota boys, 9 flashgitz (decked out), biker boys with a nob, 2 squads of 1 deffkoptas. I won the roll off and set him to go first, i deployed to counter and let him come to me. Worked more or less, bikes and koptas ate it. Farseer assisted the beasts with halucinations on the bikes. Warp spiders decided to call it early since flashgits gave them an overly warm welcome (11 on the check, 18" on the flee). rest of the game was a bunch of me learning how to use a farseer, and wish that he was on a bike.

MADNESS WITHIN

Deere god Warp Spiders throw some pain! I do think that this was a very destructive list, the problems I ran into were mostly my unfamilarness with it. I had never use a farseer before, or a psyker in general. This caused me to not get the most out of the farseer, nor the Dire Avengers.

I will look into seeing if I can work this into a larger sized list. I noticed that if i lost one star it actually reduced the effectiveness of the other.

- Ligs

Well, that was a rough match for you but it looks like you actually had a chance to pull it off. A few mistakes can hurt when playing DE primary though. Nice to see you enjoyed using those Warp Spiders. I see in your new list you opting for standard WK too. If you are intent on using the beast pack you might consider taking the the Baron. I would drop a Talos for him myself. I think you should have another look at the new list. Small walking warrior squads seem a bit iffy to me but hey ... if you think you can get them to work go for it. I would go one larger squad myself with a sybarite. It is your bikes that claim objectives and linebreak anyway.

- Seer

I did mention in chat that if you ran into Tau with broadsides and riptide at that point level it would get very messy. In fact, i believe I said not to even place your models on the table, lol. The list is good but as you said, you need to familiarize yourself with it after playing raider rush lists. I believe with practice and proper terrain even that Tau list is beatable, tbh. You do need a bike seer though for the pack.

Also interesting that flash Gitz brought you the pain. I did also mention that I am quite fond of them and that my list with them is being tested. When they work they are really devastating. But they cost so much at that level that you are limiting what the rest of the list can do.

The gitz were surprisingly resilient, and 'bloody' is putting it lightly.

Looking at Deathstars for DelDar

Now there are a lot of deathstars out there. I have a screamerstar I use which has some serious buffs and is very hard to put down. Others play the Tau bomb which can be brutal. Now we are seeing centurians buffed by corbulo and a libby (or tiggy). But DelDar have two main contenders. We have the beastpack which consists of one or two Farseers ( I prefer two), the Baron, many Khymerae and some Razorwing flocks. If you roll fortune (you have two Seers) and with Baron and a Shard of any Deathstar unit aroundis a lack of mobility, which limits their influence on a game. Now beastpacks are fast but the number one deathstar remains the Seer council.

A note of fortune - against assault armies you need Fortune even more, because you end up in combat and are stuck relying on the 3+ (or 2+) normal and the 4++. Against shooty armies (which don't ignore cover) then you can usually manage with the 2+ cover, and once you hit assault you no longer need defensive buffs because you just murder people before they swing. So the jetseer council needs fortune more than the beastpack which will regardless do a lot of damage in assault with razorwings and khymerae. When we get Fortune a 4++ rerollable and max coherency means that even ignore cover pie plates don't hurt that much). You can take on and Oves'aStar with a Seer council. Two Farseers and eight Warlocks even if they take a few casualties on the way in can take out Oves'a. The Baron, who is up front against any unit to tank hits with Fortune on a 2++. So both the beastpack and the Seer council want the Baron.

So why are Seer councils not used as much lately? Matt DeFranza's Seer Council build was runner-up to Justin Cook's Osheva'star at Adepticon. At the recent DaBoyz tournament, Alan Barajmovic, took 1st with his seer council. and Tony Kopach.running a seer council build took 2nd. However, the way comp was set for the tournament it did favor those lists. It is arguably one of the strongest builds in the game still. But Beastpack also won a GT lately so the debate is on. Ther beastpack is cheaper a bit than the Seer council but both are expensive when using double Seers and Baron. Get dual deathstars for now out of your mind. There are not enough Seers and Barons to go around.

So when deciding on your next build consider both these deathstars. They have been the strongest archtypes of late. Despite them being beasts the council still has better mobiity although both are pretty good. Bothe have the Baron for hit and run, 2++ tanking wounds (dependent on what you run) jink for the bikes and just stealth shrouded for the pack. Both have grenades as well. . A warlock council is nothing to sniff at but a well designed beastpack can hurt about anything on the ground.

So let us summarize this ...

Beast packs are spectacularly well priced and do better in assault against almost everything except maybe monstrous creatures nd are not sloches there but when using DelDar with Eldar main require a tax of one troop. This may or may be not a con. Also they do not get the buffs that a Seer council gets. Ignore cover weapons even with fortune will hurt the beast pack ( fortune/invisibility is needed against wave serpent spam for one).

The Seer council is more expensive but can get fortune, invisibility, protect, jinx, terrify, hallucinate and other pretty decent buffs overall. So even without invisibility they fare better against ignore cover. They will also handle MCs better than the beastpack. The Baron is not as much of an auto include in the council ... it plays well without him so here you can shave off a few points and play a seer council deathstar with Eldar only comfortably.

There is a fairly common consensus that the Seer council is amongst the top two or three deathstars out there still. As DelDar we have a pretty enviable position of choosing between two very good candidates. I have been queries a lot on the efficiency and viability of beastpacks and now feel we need to step back and look at both our options closely.

In the end the beastpack will make a very good edition to a list but the Seer council is OP in many ways and certainly is the better of the two deathstars. So it comes down to support units and the rest of the build. Why is Seer council better? Quite simply they are a force multipl;ier with all their psychic buffs from both the farseers and the warlocks. You have jinx/reveal, terrify/hallucinate, protect/conceal, renewer for WKs etc. Certainly 450 points is a lot. But it does a lot too.

But before totally dismissing the beastpack as second best we should consider this ... the list of characters that Eldar/Dark eldar have to support it is staggering. You can run Karandas and Vect instead of Baron and Seers. There is no clear distinction on who is best to join it and which combo is best. There are a wealth of options available. You can change the combos from tournament to tournament. With the new eldar codex and the shard of anaris option you can run a second beast pack. Fearless is the single most important feature for the pack, and this option is available to a dark eldar based army that includes a farseer for support. So Vect and Karandras can be in one pack and a Shard Seer in another. A fortuned and invisible beastpack with two Seers flanked by WKs is quite frightening. Now I mention this because OrdoSean (the master of the beastpack) uses Vect and two Seers over the Baron. If you get your powers you do not need the PGL, stealth or hit and run. He also uses the Karandras/Vect beastpack (which is nigh unbeatable in cc).