Finding the Most Compeitive List Possible

Hello fellow companions, I've been reading around this forum for a while now but never made a post until now.

I'm not sure if this is the right section to ask but I've been toying around with a variety of lists trying to find the most competitive one possible, but I figured it's always best to ask around. I'm not going to put up a list and ask for improvements, because I think it may yield better results to do it this way, as I'd like the answers to be as objective as possible.

So I'm going to be straightforward, here's the gage: I know that the performance of a list can vary depending on what you're facing, but if you were told to make the MOST hardcore competitive smash-your-face list possible with no restrictions whatsoever (doesn't matter if it's pure DE or with Eldar allies, and I do not remotely care about fluff), what would it look like? (at a standard 1500-2000 pts)

Looking forward to hear your thoughts

Depends on your local meta.

2 Trains of thought with this, Venom Spam so plenty of venoms and trueborn with splinter cannons, backed up by ravagers, potentially with a unit of beasts. Eldar Allies in this one.

Or you can go with the reserve list that Mush uses with Reaver bikes and a solid turn 2 alpha strike.

Youll be using plenty of ravagers/Venoms in either case.

I was going to make a list for this, but I don't think its possible to handle all of the threats in today's meta. Its better to focus on most of the threats and ignore a couple so that your list will have an advantage 80% of the time. Bringing something for every possible situation will leave you stretched thin.

So, the question then becomes - what threat do I ignore?

My opinion? Given how strong a DE alpha strike can be, I choose to ignore flyers. I put everything on the board, give my best shot at 1st turn (the baron), and blow them sky high. When their flyers come on, its too late.

The best competitive list for DE, in my humble opinion, will be a sound, hard-hitting, deadly alpha strike list. There is no staying power in the DE codex compared to the rest, and there is no reliable anti-air, and we bring the best alpha-strike around. Seems obvious, doesn't it? :-)

Canyoneromikos wrote:

2 Trains of thought with this, Venom Spam so plenty of venoms and trueborn with splinter cannons, backed up by ravagers, potentially with a unit of beasts. Eldar Allies in this one.

Or you can go with the reserve list that Mush uses with Reaver bikes and a solid turn 2 alpha strike.

Youll be using plenty of ravagers/Venoms in either case.

That was also my train of thought for the DE part, lots of Venoms with Blasterborn, Splinterborn and Warriors with Blasters or HWG Wyches, backed up by Ravagers and a squad of beasts with the Baron.
But I have a couple of questions:
- I'm less familiar with the Eldar codex, so what units do you recommend to bring as allies?
- If I don't bring beasts, what HQ do you recommend and where would you put him?

autopilot wrote:

I was going to make a list for this, but I don't think its possible to handle all of the threats in today's meta. Its better to focus on most of the threats and ignore a couple so that your list will have an advantage 80% of the time. Bringing something for every possible situation will leave you stretched thin.

So, the question then becomes - what threat do I ignore?

My opinion? Given how strong a DE alpha strike can be, I choose to ignore flyers. I put everything on the board, give my best shot at 1st turn (the baron), and blow them sky high. When their flyers come on, its too late.

The best competitive list for DE, in my humble opinion, will be a sound, hard-hitting, deadly alpha strike list. There is no staying power in the DE codex compared to the rest, and there is no reliable anti-air, and we bring the best alpha-strike around. Seems obvious, doesn't it? :-)

I also agree with ignoring flyers since our flyers are not really the best out there.
What would your list look like? Venom spam with Ravagers/Beasts I'm guessing? With or without allies?
Do you bother getting an Aegis Defence Line?

Like thor said, it depends on your area meta.

Where i'm from us DE players venom spam something silly, I've used 9 venoms in every list I've made since 6th killed my raider assault. I see batreps online where people have a lot of success with beast star and baron in a seer council, both require eldar allies mind you.

I still field a lot of Raiders, but my meta is still vehicle heavy.

Exort1 wrote:

I also agree with ignoring flyers since our flyers are not really the best out there.
What would your list look like? Venom spam with Ravagers/Beasts I'm guessing? With or without allies?
Do you bother getting an Aegis Defence Line?

Aegis Defense line isn't needed. Our skimmers hardly hide behind it since they're up in the air.

Lots of venoms, some ravagers, a beastpack, and Eldar allies with lots of S6 guns.

My current 2k list wrote:

Baron
Haemy /w LFG
Spiritseer

3 Wracks /w Venom (NS, 2 cannons)
3 Wracks /w Venom (NS, 2 cannons)
Haywyches /w Venom (NS, 2 cannons)
Haywyches /w Venom (NS, 2 cannons)
Haywyches /w Venom (NS, 2 cannons)
Haywyches /w Venom (NS, 2 cannons)
Dire Avengers x5 /w Wave Serpent (TL SL)
Wraithguard (cannons) /w Wave Serpent (TL SL)

Beastmasters /w 5 Khymera, 6 Flocks

Ravager
Ravager
x2 Warwalkers /w SLs

I'm sure plenty of people could argue the usefullness of several of the choices, but I find that each unit fulfills their role - and then some. I'm very successful against a lot of things with this list. Ask any questions you like.

silly newbie question time : why are Venoms always considered to be so good? i keep reading this on the forum and i'm curious as to why.

Because for the bargain bin cost of 65 points we get a fast skimmer that can move 12" a turn, belt out 12 poisoned (4+) shots at a 36" range after doing so, comes with a free 5+ invulnerable save (useful for screening other transports and with all that ignores cover nonsense kicking around), and can transport either a small scoring unit (as a 'tax' for the venom, essentially) or one that's pretty lethal in its own right (blaster-toting trueborn, haywire wyches). They're offensively good for what you pay for them.

I personally prefer to put my weaker units in the venoms and my nasty units in the raiders, giving my opponents a Solomon's choice of killing the shooty transport of death with a non-threatening unit inside, or the comparatively lacklustre raider that's full of face-murdering death.

neat me likey venoms!

autopilot wrote:

Given how strong a DE alpha strike can be, I choose to ignore flyers. I put everything on the board, give my best shot at 1st turn (the baron), and blow them sky high. When their flyers come on, its too late.

I agree on how strong it can be, and I use a similar strategy, except I keep 2 Razorwings in reserve, and put everything else on the board. Out flyers may not be the best, but they definitely get the job done, they soak up bullets and do damage at the same time. AV10 sucks, but most things don't have skyfire, and if they do, they're on of my top priorities. While alpha strike is great, you aren't guaranteed to take out all of the big threats first turn, and most times you wont, our flyers can give us that extra punch turn two, and can take out their flyers while out AT on the ground can continue to deal with anything that has been lucky enough to survive until T2.

Targetlock wrote:

neat :)me likey venoms!

You and I, I believe, are going to get along VERY well

glad to hear it

Kabal_of_the_Red_Shadow wrote:

autopilot wrote:

Given how strong a DE alpha strike can be, I choose to ignore flyers. I put everything on the board, give my best shot at 1st turn (the baron), and blow them sky high. When their flyers come on, its too late.

I agree on how strong it can be, and I use a similar strategy, except I keep 2 Razorwings in reserve, and put everything else on the board. Out flyers may not be the best, but they definitely get the job done, they soak up bullets and do damage at the same time. AV10 sucks, but most things don't have skyfire, and if they do, they're on of my top priorities. While alpha strike is great, you aren't guaranteed to take out all of the big threats first turn, and most times you wont, our flyers can give us that extra punch turn two, and can take out their flyers while out AT on the ground can continue to deal with anything that has been lucky enough to survive until T2.

Fair argument. My only rebuttal is that you have 280-300 points off the board Turn 1, or maybe longer, which significantly lowers your alpha strike potential. Opponents who bring fliers against you could have 300 points off the board, so having your full army on the board T1 is devastating. They won't be able to come back, even when their fliers do come on.

This is just my playstyle, though. When there's a chance for a flier to not come in until T4, thats an instant turn off in my book. I like something a little more reliable than that.

Bringing something to manipulate reserves is something I would need to do (personally). A reroll, or a +1, etc.

Venoms while brilliant suffer from diminishing returns, the more you have the more of the army they use up the less utility the units inside will have, having 9 venoms with wracks and trueborn and 3 ravagers while it will beat some armies itll loose terribly to others. there has to be a better variety of options available.

One thing i often see as see above oddly is people taking a haemonculus just to make wracks troops

Think logically here

Haemonculus + 3 Units of wracks = 140points
3 units of warriors = 135 points

Unless your using your haemonculus as a cheap warlord or to marshall a unit of grotesques, i wouldn't bother using him.

so you have the choice between 3 units that will never have an inpact on the game to 3 units that if they combine there firepower have another Venoms worth of splinter shots at 24 inchs and have 2 1/2 at short range.

Well if your going for the Alpha Strike there are just somethings a dark eldar army struggle with.

Killing an imperial guard blob who go to ground then get back in the fight. 9 Venoms while hitting out alot of shots just doesn't do the job (6 kills) adding 3 trueborn units with splinter cannons hardly helps it goes up to 8 wounds. By bringing in a Nightspinner (warphunter if its forgeworld allowed) you can get 8 in a hit due to its barrage ability. It also has a good go and damaging tanks and can instant kill things like broadsides and crisis suits.

Farseers also make alot of sense throwing out alot of offenixe spells that can help tip the balance of a fight. Wave serpents are obviusly pretty good and 10 guardians with guide are incredibly good at defensive punishment.

Warwalkers have the same points efficiency per bright lance as a ravager and are in some respects better (in others not as good)

Theres alot of options there to compliment our forces but remember allways go for alpha stike units none of the hard to kill eldar units..... why? you don't want to reduce damage output of a alpha strike army.

Canyoneromikos wrote:

Or you can go with the reserve list that Mush uses with Reaver bikes and a solid turn 2 alpha strike.

Thanks for the compliment. But I would hardly call my list competitive I haven't entered/won any tournaments with it.

Thor665 wrote:

I still field a lot of Raiders, but my meta is still vehicle heavy.

I believe a wise Dark Eldar Archon once said:

Quote :

I believe most players overlook that the Raider is fire support as well because the Venom lets you roll larger handfuls of dice, but then again I think there's a reason so many DE players had 'tough' matchups versus mech heavy lists in 5th.

Alas the name of the original author has forever been lost in the annals of time.

Canyoneromikos wrote:

Think logically here

Haemonculus + 3 Units of wracks = 140points
3 units of warriors = 135 points

Warriors side would still require a HQ choice.
Also;
Haem + 4 Units Wracks = 170
4 Units of Warriors = 180

Also, with their cheapest HQ option the Warriors would then be 230.

But that is all beside the point - the point of the Warrior/Wrack debate is about understanding what you're getting for the points and also about understanding what you need. Sometimes Warriors are a better bet, sometimes Wracks are. If the goal is affordable troop options in order to get Raiders/Venoms then the Wracks are blatantly superior if that's all you want.

I agree with you that it is foolish to have that be all you want, and always advocate Warriors, and indeed, Warriors with upgrades. But it's not legit to suggest Warriors are 'cheaper' they aren't. I agree they're a better choice in, almost, every situation, but they're not cheaper.

@Mush - I don't know who that is, but they sound smart and probably sexy.

Mushkilla wrote:

Thanks for the compliment. But I would hardly call my list competitive I haven't entered/won any tournaments with it.

i really think it's an army that will work very well, when i go to make it tho there allways seems to be something missing i can't put my finger on!

It's tough to win a tournament with dark eldar, not because it's impossible, but because there is a much smaller margin for error than that of say tau or heldrake chaos lists.

I'd also say go to a tournament perhaps not the thrones of skulls but a swiss one and try yourself out against new people.

Thor665 wrote:

Warriors side would still require a HQ choice.
Also;
Haem + 4 Units Wracks = 170
4 Units of Warriors = 180

Also, with their cheapest HQ option the Warriors would then be 230.

But that is all beside the point - the point of the Warrior/Wrack debate is about understanding what you're getting for the points and also about understanding what you need. Sometimes Warriors are a better bet, sometimes Wracks are. If the goal is affordable troop options in order to get Raiders/Venoms then the Wracks are blatantly superior if that's all you want.

I agree with you that it is foolish to have that be all you want, and always advocate Warriors, and indeed, Warriors with upgrades. But it's not legit to suggest Warriors are 'cheaper' they aren't. I agree they're a better choice in, almost, every situation, but they're not cheaper

Your obviously going on the assumption here that the person implied here is taking a haemonculus as there warlord. Ofcourse if that is the case, the wrack option is a good one as it doesn't come with haemonculus tax.

However if you have an hq already say a archoan the baron so on, the haemonculus is essentially just adds 2 wounds to a wrack unit, get an extra KP, 3 man wrack units are easy to kill, just as easy as a 5 man warrior unit but they have 0 damage potential. warriors do a suprising amount of damage something people just don't see coming.

I've been messing around with a pure long range mech army as a lot of my local meta has drifted into full footsloggng and so by not giving them infantry targets I'm trying to waste as many of my opponents points as possible.

My 1750 list with eldar allies was:
Haemonculus.
2x 3 trueborn in venoms with dual cannons.
6x 3 wracks in raiders, 4 dissies, 2 lances.
3x ravagers, 2 with lances, 1 with dissies.
1x Jet bike mantle-tarch with lance and melta.
2x 5 Dire avenger squads in wave serpents with scatter lasers.
1x fire prism.

That's 14 vehicles that are fully effective while sitting at 36". I'm tempted to drop the autarch down to a spirit seer and add 3 reavers with a heat lance, but we'll see. the sheer number of things to kill is a defense in itself, while my opponent seemed to feel like he was being forced to commit far too much shooting to kill what are, by themselves, not particularly dangerous targets. The multiple infantry units meant i could use the furthest one to soak the overwatch shots, only ever losing 3 guys at most, letting the others wolfpack and take down targets together. I do fear a necron player using the stormlord tho.

Canyoneromikos wrote:

Your obviously going on the assumption here that the person implied here is taking a haemonculus as there warlord. Ofcourse if that is the case, the wrack option is a good one as it doesn't come with haemonculus tax.

Even with Haem tax, if I want 4 Troop options it's cheaper.

Canyoneromikos wrote:

Venoms while brilliant suffer from diminishing returns, the more you have the more of the army they use up the less utility the units inside will have, having 9 venoms with wracks and trueborn and 3 ravagers while it will beat some armies itll loose terribly to others. there has to be a better variety of options available.

I disagree. The more venoms you have, the more target saturation you have, therefore - the more you overwhelm your opponent. Five warriors with a blaster in a venom is 125 points, 5 wyches with haywire in a venom is 125 points, throw in some splinterborn or blasterborn and you have all the utility you need. Each unit does something different.

Raiders are great, but venoms are the best thing in the codex for poisoned shots. Theres just no denying it. If Ravagers didn't exist, then there'd be more of a toss-up.

Canyoneromikos wrote:

One thing i often see as see above oddly is people taking a haemonculus just to make wracks troops

Think logically here

Haemonculus + 3 Units of wracks = 140points
3 units of warriors = 135 points

Unless your using your haemonculus as a cheap warlord or to marshall a unit of grotesques, i wouldn't bother using him.

You're not looking at it quite right. The wracks are brought because they are the cheapest option without any upgrades. Five warriors really can't do too much, unless you plan on giving them a blaster. As long as you bring at least 2 squads of wracks, you'll save points (assuming blaster warriors).

Code:

Warriors /w Blaster in Venom (2 cannons) - 125
Warriors /w Blaster in Venom (2 cannons) - 125
Total - 250

VS

Haem - 50
Wracks in Venom (2cannons) - 95
Wracks in Venom (2cannons) - 95
Total - 240

Also, wracks aren't only brought because they're barely cheaper. Its utility. With my list (Haem, 2 wrack troop choices), I have 3 pain tokens to abuse. I have The Baron join a wrack squad at the beginning to ninja a pain token before he joins his beasts. The Haem joins the beasts and leaves his pain token there. This gives my beastmasters FnP, the whole unit Furious Charge (which is HUGE), and I'm ONE pain token away from Fearless. I'm hardly worried about paying 5 less points a unit for naked warriors when I can bring this kind of utility.

Canyoneromikos wrote:

Well if your going for the Alpha Strike there are just somethings a dark eldar army struggle with.

Killing an imperial guard blob who go to ground then get back in the fight. 9 Venoms while hitting out alot of shots just doesn't do the job (6 kills) adding 3 trueborn units with splinter cannons hardly helps it goes up to 8 wounds. By bringing in a Nightspinner (warphunter if its forgeworld allowed) you can get 8 in a hit due to its barrage ability. It also has a good go and damaging tanks and can instant kill things like broadsides and crisis suits.

Alpha Strike doesn't mean "being able to kill anything my opponent has." Really good Alpha Strikes knock out a portion of your opponents list so that they can never come back from it. Against this same Guard list, I would never shoot the blob first turn. They typically carry some sort of Space Marine ally giving them FnP or a 4++ and have a ton of wounds that just aren't worth shooting at. Their range isn't that spectacular. Guard usually have weapons platforms, or a quad gun, etc - thats where my poison goes. Kill all their heavy weapons and they can't kill your tanks.

You are very right about having a Night Spinner, though. Eldar allies in general help a ton against our hardest matchups - like mech guard.

Canyoneromikos wrote:

Farseers also make alot of sense throwing out alot of offenixe spells that can help tip the balance of a fight. Wave serpents are obviusly pretty good and 10 guardians with guide are incredibly good at defensive punishment.

Warwalkers have the same points efficiency per bright lance as a ravager and are in some respects better (in others not as good)

Theres alot of options there to compliment our forces but remember allways go for alpha stike units none of the hard to kill eldar units..... why? you don't want to reduce damage output of a alpha strike army.

Yes!

eris wrote:

My 1750 list with eldar allies was:
Haemonculus.
2x 3 trueborn in venoms with dual cannons.
6x 3 wracks in raiders, 4 dissies, 2 lances.
3x ravagers, 2 with lances, 1 with dissies.
1x Jet bike mantle-tarch with lance and melta.
2x 5 Dire avenger squads in wave serpents with scatter lasers.
1x fire prism.

This list is very threatening. I'm personally not a huge fan of the fire prism, and with all of your lances on other things, do you feel like the Night Spinner would be better suited?

autopilot wrote:

Raiders are great, but venoms are the best thing in the codex for poisoned shots. Theres just no denying it.

I certainly agree Venoms are better at generating poison shots than Raiders

autopilot wrote:

I disagree. The more venoms you have, the more target saturation you have, therefore - the more you overwhelm your opponent.

You don't need to spam the same unit to achieve target saturation. You just need to spam units with a similar threat level. If anything spamming venoms just makes your list unbalanced, sure you will do well against a foot list. But it's hardly going to overwhelm any of the popular mechanised Imperial Guard, Eldar or Tau lists. In fact against those lists you don't have any saturation until you pop a transport. Your ravagers are going to be downed first turn as your opponent doesn't need to bother with the venoms.

autopilot wrote:

Alpha Strike doesn't mean "being able to kill anything my opponent has." Really good Alpha Strikes knock out a portion of your opponents list so that they can never come back from it.

Alpha strike is a liability as it only works if you manage to win the roll off and your opponent doesn't seize. Alpha strike is the reason so many players say dark eldar either win big or lose big (win big if you go first lose big if you go second). Dark Eldar already have an inherently good alpha strike why waste point making it better than it needs to be? Personally I think you are far better off investing in stuff that lets you win when you go second (one of our weaknesses), it makes for a far more consistent army list.

At least that's how I see it.

Thor665 wrote:

autopilot wrote:

Raiders are great, but venoms are the best thing in the codex for poisoned shots. Theres just no denying it.

I certainly agree Venoms are better at generating poison shots than Raiders

Aha, that wasn't a well written sentence. I was comparing them because they're both dedicated transports.

"Compared to other sources of poison, Venoms are the best thing in the codex for generating poison shots."

How's that? =P

Mush wrote:

You don't need to spam the same unit to achieve target saturation. You just need to spam units with a similar threat level. If anything spamming venoms just makes your list unbalanced, sure you will do well against a foot list. But it's hardly going to overwhelm any of the popular mechanised Imperial Guard, Eldar or Tau lists. In fact against those lists you don't have any saturation until you pop a transport. Your ravagers are going to be downed first turn as your opponent doesn't need to bother with the venoms.

I agree that bringing units of a similar threat level to be a variation of spamming. Keep in mind that these different units need to preform similar roles to threaten the same things, otherwise its not spamming. For example, bringing a couple gunboats and 3 venoms along side it. Thats still target saturation, lots of poison. I'd say thats spamming, even without bringing 6 venoms instead.

Bringing nothing but venoms would be setting up your list for a hard-counter, yes. If I came off that way, then I didn't mean to. I'm advocating bringing Eldar allies! Bring your venoms, your ravagers, but don't spam them so much. Drop a handful for the Eldar. You need them for those bad match-ups, because just bringing another venom isn't going to cut it - like you said.

I think we're in agreement. The only thing thats up in the air is what to bring along-side the venoms.

Mush wrote:

Alpha strike is a liability as it only works if you manage to win the roll off and your opponent doesn't seize. Alpha strike is the reason so many players say dark eldar either win big or lose big (win big if you go first lose big if you go second). Dark Eldar already have an inherently good alpha strike why waste point making it better than it needs to be? Personally I think you are far better off investing in stuff that lets you win when you go second (one of our weaknesses), it makes for a far more consistent army list.

Granted, it does help a lot to go first when relying on an alpha strike, you certainly don't need to. Going second has its advantages (which I'm sure you're aware of). Being able to counter-deploy out of range is entirely possible, especially with Night Shields. Also in objective missions, going 2nd is much more advantageous.

Between The Baron's +1 to go first, a 4+ Night Fighting chance first turn, and the ability to counter-deploy, I hardly feel the disadvantage of going 2nd when building my list. (I don't bring Vect, but I suppose you could include his 4+ seize in this paragraph). Counter-deploying is the biggest factor.

I do agree that creating a list based on going 2nd would be far more reliable. However, in this dangerous shooting game we're in now, and with how lightweight our vehicles are, how safe is it really? (I wish we could bring Imotekh ) Is there something I'm missing (besides Night Shields) which helps DE when we're going 2nd?

autopilot wrote:

I'm personally not a huge fan of the fire prism, and with all of your lances on other things, do you feel like the Night Spinner would be better suited?

I'm very tempted by the night spinner, with the doom weaver being barrage and with the potential to 'rend' it has the ability to sniper characters from squads, as well as threaten vehicles with it's s8 hits on side armour. The prism is still tempting tho.. it's s9 lance is better than anything we naturally have. the small blast can help thin termies before my dissies finish them off and the large blast being ap3 means that marines don't like coming out of cover which usually makes them static or slower which suits my long range shooting list. I'll probably try the spinner for a while, but at the moment i feel like the prism can contribute to whatever i need it to if any part of my army need a helping hand on a given turn.