Finding the Most Compeitive List Possible

eris wrote:

autopilot wrote:

I'm personally not a huge fan of the fire prism, and with all of your lances on other things, do you feel like the Night Spinner would be better suited?

I'm very tempted by the night spinner, with the doom weaver being barrage and with the potential to 'rend' it has the ability to sniper characters from squads, as well as threaten vehicles with it's s8 hits on side armour. The prism is still tempting tho.. it's s9 lance is better than anything we naturally have. the small blast can help thin termies before my dissies finish them off and the large blast being ap3 means that marines don't like coming out of cover which usually makes them static or slower which suits my long range shooting list. I'll probably try the spinner for a while, but at the moment i feel like the prism can contribute to whatever i need it to if any part of my army need a helping hand on a given turn.

The Firm Prism does look really nice on paper. I just hate that the S9 lance is Heavy 1. A 33% chance to do nothing that turn really turns me off. Especially without Guide. The blasts are great, though!

Assuming av12 it's more like 55% to fail with the single shot. But in 40k terms that's actually pretty good. A dark lance is at like 67% to do nothing. It's not that the prism is all that amazing at any individual thing, but it can contribute to whatever's needed. Maybe with more experience with the list i could replace it with a more refined unit which excels at a specific role.

One other thing about the prism tho.. people do seem to pecieve it as a threat. given that there's only that 12% difference between a prism and a raider in terms of effectiveness vs av12, the prism is a much bigger fire magnet. Odds wise, your opponent's probably better off just knocking down those av10 open topped lance platforms, but instead the av12 prism is the one that's often chosen. I'll admit that I sometimes help my opponent to chose the prism as a target, making sure to mention with a smile that it's a s9 lance or playing up the fact that it's ap1. I'm not sure I could as easily offer the spinner as a comparabe threat, and if i can't it'll likely up the risk to my other units.

I just prefer more weight of fire than one shot. Failing to hit with one shot is just discouraging. A ravager is a perfect example of something I really like, and its cheaper than the fire prism and 3x more shots. Naturally, its paper-thin, but at least its not AV10. Hah.

You're a clever one for bluffing your hand, though. =P

I might give it a try in a future game. I've yet to try the Night Spinner as well, but I think it looks very effective and reliable. I'm just too partial to my war walkers.

autopilot wrote:

a 4+ Night Fighting chance first turn

Night fight is another liability, tau practically ignore it, necrons can turn the lights on if they so wish, and Imperial armies have search lights (another reason mech isn't dead and people should bring some dirt cheap rhinos).

autopilot wrote:

Is there something I'm missing (besides Night Shields) which helps DE when we're going 2nd?

Ironically I don't bother with night shields, though they do help against some armies, they provide little to no protection against others, they also seem less effective in hybrid lists. They are pretty handy against Tau, Necrons and GK though.

What helps DE go second?

-Reduce your army's footprint. It gives you more space to hide things and keep units out of range, reducing the incoming fire you will take. This can also be done by reducing the foot print of fragile units, warriors in cover for example don't need to be hidden if they have area terrain to camp in as it makes them quite resilient.
-Run units that can be effective coming in from reserve if need be. This can free up more space to hide the rest of your army. Reavers and flyers come to mind.
-Run units that are very resilient, are a threat if ignored and draw a lot of fire. Grotesques, beasts and talos are good for this.
-Have tougher troops. 10 warriors going to ground in cover are surprisingly annoying to shift and put out more shots than a venom at 24". They also force dual role units (units that can take out tanks and infantry) to make a choice.
-Cover saturation, make sure every single one of your units is in cover, that way even your opponent's cover ignoring weapons will need to pick their targets wisely.

Those are all the points I can think of off the top of my head. When you don't depend on your fragile transports so much a DE list can become quite resilient. I think it's one of the problems with the venom, it's very fragile and in a lot of lists it's the main workhorse. If you lose four raiders you lose four dark lance shots. If you lose four venoms you lose 48 poison shots. Which affects you more? A list is far more likely to depend on venoms for AI than it is to depend on Raiders for AT (raiders being mediocre AT, and venoms being amazing AI).

Cover was always our best friend, but with Tau and Eldar bringing so many tools which ignore cover, we are getting more and more put into "weak army" position in tournaments. Eldars and Tau are in many list now, at least as allies. Other big combo are Necrons/GK/Chaos which are also not our best matchup.

autopilot wrote:

Between The Baron's +1 to go first, a 4+ Night Fighting chance first turn, and the ability to counter-deploy, I hardly feel the disadvantage of going 2nd when building my list. (I don't bring Vect, but I suppose you could include his 4+ seize in this paragraph). Counter-deploying is the biggest factor.

I don't have the codex in front of me right now but isn't the Baron's ability +1 to choose your deployment zone, and not +1 to go first?

Exort1 wrote:

autopilot wrote:

Between The Baron's +1 to go first, a 4+ Night Fighting chance first turn, and the ability to counter-deploy, I hardly feel the disadvantage of going 2nd when building my list. (I don't bring Vect, but I suppose you could include his 4+ seize in this paragraph). Counter-deploying is the biggest factor.

I don't have the codex in front of me right now but isn't the Baron's ability +1 to choose your deployment zone, and not +1 to go first?

It was FAQed to go first roll

Before I write anything up I wanted to make it clear that I'm not arguing or anything, even if it seems like I'm writing directly back and forth with a few people. This is simply a friendly topic about DE competitive aspects. :-)

Mush wrote:

Night fight is another liability, tau practically ignore it, necrons can turn the lights on if they so wish, and Imperial armies have search lights (another reason mech isn't dead and people should bring some dirt cheap rhinos).

Against many other armies, Night Fighting is an excellent tool to have in every game. I know its 50% chance, and some things ignore it, but you know you smile inside when you see that '4+' rolled for Night Fight.

Against the armies you listed:
Tau - You can out range marker lights first turn quite easily. Especially with Night Shields. That'll significantly reduce firepower. Tau in general are a hard match-up, though. S5 guns everywhere. *shudder*
Necrons - Their range is so pitiful (again, I can't go without my Night Shields). And often times they'll have fliers sitting in reserve. I'd almost give necrons first turn. What're they going to do? Move their wraiths into charge range of my beasts?
Searchlights - I have no rebuttal against this. Searchlights are too good. You do still have the Flickerfield on the Venom, for what its worth.

Mush wrote:

Ironically I don't bother with night shields, though they do help against some armies, they provide little to no protection against others, they also seem less effective in hybrid lists. They are pretty handy against Tau, Necrons and GK though.

Also the new Eldar. Shuriken Cannon range reduced is gravy, as well as Shuriken Catapults, and the very nasty Warp Spiders. Melta range becomes pitiful.

The big thing with Night Shields, however, is protection when going 2nd. You don't have your jink saves yet, and you're just a sitting duck. Night Shields really helps protect you from more fire than you think. And, you're right, when building a list, you either go all NS - or no NS. I generally only put NS on my venoms, then deploy my ravagers behind them. Generally.

Mush wrote:

-Reduce your army's footprint. It gives you more space to hide things and keep units out of range, reducing the incoming fire you will take. This can also be done by reducing the foot print of fragile units, warriors in cover for example don't need to be hidden if they have area terrain to camp in as it makes them quite resilient.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean by going 2nd you are able to deny flank by deploying in a corner? If so, I completely agree.

Mush wrote:

-Run units that can be effective coming in from reserve if need be. This can free up more space to hide the rest of your army. Reavers and flyers come to mind.

Do you typically run some sort of Reserve manipulation, or do you rely on your 3+ on Turn 2?

Mush wrote:

A list is far more likely to depend on venoms for AI than it is to depend on Raiders for AT (raiders being mediocre AT, and venoms being amazing AI).

I suppose that's a true statement.

So you're saying that if you bring raiders full of kabalites (deployed outside the transport in cover), you're spreading your threats out among two targets. If you bring a Venom with warriors and a blaster, you have a weak unit outside the transport, and only one target for your opponent if they stay inside.

There is a lot of merit to that, and I think that changes my view slightly on Raiders. However, having 48" threat range poison shots is very, very good. My list relies on its ability to alpha strike hard, and I need the range early. Make sense?

Zanais wrote:

Cover was always our best friend, but with Tau and Eldar bringing so many tools which ignore cover, we are getting more and more put into "weak army" position in tournaments. Eldars and Tau are in many list now, at least as allies. Other big combo are Necrons/GK/Chaos which are also not our best matchup.

I know. When the Chaos Space Marine codex was released, my eyes boggled at the Blastmaster gun. 48" S8 AP3 Small Blast, Ignores Cover.

I really hope, though sincerely doubt, something is modified to Ignores Cover weapons. I really think Jink saves should be able to be taken. Jinking is different than hiding behind a tree, you know? Hah.

Biggest threats are Eldar and Tau, or combinations of the two, in my opinion.

autopilot wrote:

Before I write anything up I wanted to make it clear that I'm not arguing or anything, even if it seems like I'm writing directly back and forth with a few people. This is simply a friendly topic about DE competitive aspects. :-)

In my experience TDC thrives on good discussion and open minded debate, don't be afraid to voice your opinion or question the reasoning of others. After all that's how we learn the most from each other, there are no absolutes in 40k (well other than mandrakes are terrible).

autopilot wrote:

Against many other armies, Night Fighting is an excellent tool to have in every game. I know its 50% chance, and some things ignore it, but you know you smile inside when you see that '4+' rolled for Night Fight.

All I was getting at is night fight, like going first is not something reliable to build an army around. Don't get me wrong it's nice when you get it and it works, but it's not something you can count on. I try and cut out as many critical dice rolls (like who goes first, and night fight) from my list/strategy as possible as they are not reliable enough to count on.

autopilot wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean by going 2nd you are able to deny flank by deploying in a corner? If so, I completely agree.

No I mean that 8 venoms and 3 ravagers is harder to hide/keep out of range than 4 raiders and 2 ravagers as they take up more space. The footprint of your army is important as it will determine how much of it you can hide when you go second.

autopilot wrote:

Do you typically run some sort of Reserve manipulation, or do you rely on your 3+ on Turn 2?

The 3+ has worked fine for me so far because I don't mind when the reavers come on (so passing the 3+ is not critical). Reavers are more deadly the later they come on (more likely to get an easy pain token, more likely your opponent has over extended, more likely the reavers will still have enough models left turn 5 to contest objectives). Even if they come on turn 4 they can still win you the game. Also generally reavers won't do anything on turns 1-2 anyway (other than move into position), so starting them in reserve doesn't change much. That being said I only reserve them if it's too risky for them to start on the board.

2k.

10 venoms (9 of wich have blaster toting warriors) 6 ravagers.

This is a list almost everyone would not want to face. (But it is not that fun to play either. Just shoot, shoot and shoot some more.)

autopilot wrote:

I disagree. The more venoms you have, the more target saturation you have, therefore - the more you overwhelm your opponent. Five warriors with a blaster in a venom is 125 points, 5 wyches with haywire in a venom is 125 points, throw in some splinterborn or blasterborn and you have all the utility you need. Each unit does something different.

You obviously don't understand what i mean by diminishing returns.

the difference between having 8 Venoms and 9 venoms isn't the same as the difference between having 5 rather than 4 and so on. loosing 12 shots when you then still have another 132 shots going the opponants way for example isn't much of a issue. however if you loose 12 shots and you only have 60 to begin with the amount of extra shots is more keenly felt. havng 14 vehicles instead of 13 will not give the same benefit as upping the vehicle count to say 6 from 5 and so on. The more you buy of something the less value each of those items has. This in economics is called diseconomies of scale and applies here aswell.

autopilot wrote:

You're not looking at it quite right. The wracks are brought because they are the cheapest option without any upgrades. Five warriors really can't do too much, unless you plan on giving them a blaster. As long as you bring at least 2 squads of wracks, you'll save points (assuming blaster warriors).

well i'd say a unit of 5 warriors is alot better than a unit of 3 wracks. Wracks won't give you anything unless you want a unit to fire a quad gun. a unit of warriors gives 5 splinter rifle shots. 2 units give 10, thats almost a venoms worth in splinter shots, that kicks out alot of damage. I think taking a blaster in a unit of warrior is the wrong way to go. Lances don't do much damage costs alot of points and means the unit is a jack of all trades rather than just tailor

autopilot wrote:

Also, wracks aren't only brought because they're barely cheaper. Its utility. With my list (Haem, 2 wrack troop choices), I have 3 pain tokens to abuse. I have The Baron join a wrack squad at the beginning to ninja a pain token before he joins his beasts. The Haem joins the beasts and leaves his pain token there. This gives my beastmasters FnP, the whole unit Furious Charge (which is HUGE), and I'm ONE pain token away from Fearless. I'm hardly worried about paying 5 less points a unit for naked warriors when I can bring this kind of utility.

that was a usefull tactic in 5th when hellions could use the feel no pain and the furious charge to cause carnage. But beasts don't benefit from the tokens as they don't have power through pain just the beastmasters and the baron. So it's too much of a risk especially as it doesn't give fearless straight away. Want fearless? take a eldar farseer and give him the item that makes him fearless.

eris wrote:

The prism is still tempting tho.. it's s9 lance is better than anything we naturally have. the small blast can help thin termies before my dissies finish them off and the large blast being ap3 means that marines don't like coming out of cover which usually makes them static or slower which suits my long range shooting list.

no don't do that fire prisms are terrible. yes tey have a ap 3 large blast but dark eldar are very good at killing marines so that is not a issue. and as you rightly say if they stay in cover, you may aswell be shooting venoms at them instead. Nightspinners have so much utility in comparison. For your information, your more likely to get a tank kill from 2 bright/dark lances that you would from the 1 fire prism shot.

Canyoneromikos wrote:

The more you buy of something the less value each of those items has. This in economics is called diseconomies of scale and applies here aswell.

Not really. From my understanding (I didn't do economics) the main issue is duplication of effort, which is ultimately determined by your opponent's list. In a 6th, which is now a heavily footslogging environment, additional venoms will have targets and so the 14th is just as valuable as the 3rd. As long as there are infantry models standing at the end of the shooting phase, the venom's were all utilised 100%, they're not denying targets for one other and they're not killing models which have already been killed. You may notice the decrease in your firepower less if you lose 1 of 9 venoms, rather than 1 of 4 venoms, but if all have targets the next turn then the decrease is exactly the same, it's purely your perception.

Canyoneromikos wrote:

Wracks won't give you anything unless you want a unit to fire a quad gun.

I wouldn't agree with that at all. In my list with 6 lots of 3 wracks they can serve two roles. Firstly they can be incredibly annoying for my opponent.. he wants to spend his shooting killing my tanks as they are where the firs power lies, but while he's doing that 2-3 groups of wracks are creeping up on his squad. At some point he'll have to devote resources to killing them, usually with far more firepower than it takes to kill 3 wracks, so i'm forcing him to waste shooting. Don't think about a units power as purely what it can do, it's always worth considering what it can make your opponent do as well. The second role is to wolfpack small units which have been thinned by venom/raider fire but which i don't want to commit more significant shooting to. i.e. i don't want to fall into the same trap that I'm offering my opponent by fielding those 3 man wrack squads, and so I use some of those wracks to clear up those squads. 3 wracks doesn't sound like much, but when multiple groups assault together they can still put a decent amount of hurt on a unit.

Canyoneromikos wrote:

beasts don't benefit from the tokens as they don't have power through pain just the beastmasters and the baron.

Hmm i do recall this being in an FAQ once upon a time, however i've just looked thru the 1.4 DE FAQ and I can't see it for the life of me. The wording of PfP rule would mean that the beasts DO benefit, so without that FAQ entry (which seems to have vanished) I can't see why this wouldn't work.

eris wrote:

The prism is still tempting tho.. it's s9 lance is better than anything we naturally have. the small blast can help thin termies before my dissies finish them off and the large blast being ap3 means that marines don't like coming out of cover which usually makes them static or slower which suits my long range shooting list.

Canyoneromikos wrote:

no don't do that fire prisms are terrible. yes tey have a ap 3 large blast but dark eldar are very good at killing marines so that is not a issue. and as you rightly say if they stay in cover, you may aswell be shooting venoms at them instead. Nightspinners have so much utility in comparison. For your information, your more likely to get a tank kill from 2 bright/dark lances that you would from the 1 fire prism shot.

I get the impression that perhaps you haven't read all I've written in this thread on the subject of the prism (particularly due to you information about how effective it is compared to a dark lance).

On the subject of pure utility tho, I'd disagree with you with regards to the spinner being better (and perhaps with the prism being better! I'll explain). Against AV targets, the prism is clearly more effective due to it's s9 ap1, vs the spinners s8 ap6 (your opponent would be foolish to parking lot vs the spinner, so I'm assuming 1 hit per shot). Against 2+ save models, the prism provides a small blast from which all wounds ignore armour, the spinner has a larger blast which may seem better, but 2+ units are often small and so the large blast isn't of as much benefit as it would be against a higher model count, more densely packed target, and of the wounds it causes, only 1/6 will ignore armour. Against those larger, more densely packed squads, the spinner does have an advantage. It's s7/8 means it's wounding on a 2 rather than the prisms 3, tho i imagine the main benefit most people would think of is the ability to hit targets behind an aegis without them getting a cover save. This is highly variable in my experience, a squad of guardsmen behind an aegis would be significantly more vulnerable to the spinner as they could gtg and get back in the fight vs the prism, minimising losses. Against a spinner, they'd only get their armour save and you'd kill a reasonable number. However, lets take some marines behind an aegis.. with the spinner they'll get their 3+ armour and you might kill 2-3 depending on your 'rend' count. With the prism, they'll just get the cover save of a 4+, so they'll either lose half the successful wounds (putting the prism on a par with the spinner) or they'll go to ground without the ability to get up next turn.

Honestly, I don't think there's much between them in most scenarios. However the perceived threat of the prism is far higher than that of the spinner (at this moment in time) and so, as i mentioned in a previous post, it does afford the rest of my army some level of protection purely by it's presence.

Speaking of Night Shields, what's the consensus on them? Should you take NS on your vehicles? If so, on all of them or only a few?

I think it's not a bad idea to put NS on your ravagers and keep them shooting at 36", but then again that means they'll just shoot at your other vehicles, so is it really worth it? Is it wise to 'sacrifice' your venoms to keep you Ravagers alive longer? Or just put NS on everything? But how effective is NS if you move closer than 36" to disembark/shoot with the units you're transporting?

Another factor is if I'm taking Eldar allies (thinking of fielding Farseer on jet bike, cheap squad of scoring bikes, squad of Warp Spiders and 3x War Walkers for more S8 AP2 shots since they have the same cost per shot as Ravagers), the War Walkers won't be able to have NS, so if my opponent's 36" AT weapons can't fire at my Ravagers they can still fire at the Walkers, so it kind of makes NS worthless in this case.

I'm at a big dilemma regarding NS
Help me citizens of Commorragh!

In my experience with night shields you either go all or nothing.

Mushkilla wrote:

In my experience with night shields you either go all or nothing.

Pretty much agree on that.

If I've got 10 points spare and I can't fit a liquifier in somewhere then I'll take them on one of the ravagers, but otherwise I mostly steer clear with my current list. The problem is that with so many vehicles; taking them on everything very quickly becomes expensive and I could pay for another raider (and more!) by not taking them. Some moments I've wished I've had them, but mostly I've not noticed their absence.

There will be certain list types where they will be far more useful than in mine tho.

eris wrote:

Hmm i do recall this being in an FAQ once upon a time, however i've just looked thru the 1.4 DE FAQ and I can't see it for the life of me. The wording of PfP rule would mean that the beasts DO benefit, so without that FAQ entry (which seems to have vanished) I can't see why this wouldn't work

your'e right assumption is the mother of all er mess ups it seems

autopilot wrote:

This gives my beastmasters FnP, the whole unit Furious Charge (which is HUGE),

Sadly it doesn't, if you re-read the furious charge special rule you will find it only benefits the models with furious charge and does not affect the whole unit. The pain token doesn't give furious charge to the beasts, as they don't benefit from power from pain (see below).

eris wrote:

Hmm i do recall this being in an FAQ once upon a time, however i've just looked thru the 1.4 DE FAQ and I can't see it for the life of me. The wording of PfP rule would mean that the beasts DO benefit, so without that FAQ entry (which seems to have vanished) I can't see why this wouldn't work.

Look again.

Q: When a unit comprised of some models with Power from Pain and
some without has a pain token, does the effect it gives apply to every
model in the unit or just to the models with the Power from Pain special
rule? (p25)
A: It only applies to the models with the Power from Pain
special rule.

Q: When a unit comprised of some models with Powerfrom Pain and
some without has a pain token, does the ef ect it gives applyto every
model in the unit or just to the models with the Power from Pain special
rule? (p25)
A: It only applies to the models with the Powerfrom Pain
specialrule.

that is in the FAQ

edit: aww beat me to it you bugger!

Ah, there it is. Innocuously hidden haflway down on the right of page 3. I swear i even searched on 'from pain' and it didn't find it! Oh well, live and learn (to read).

But Khymerae and Razorwing benefit from fearless as long as there is a Beastmaster alive.

exort1 wrote:

Speaking of Night Shields, what's the consensus on them? Should you take NS on your vehicles? If so, on all of them or only a few?

I think it's not a bad idea to put NS on your ravagers and keep them shooting at 36", but then again that means they'll just shoot at your other vehicles, so is it really worth it? Is it wise to 'sacrifice' your venoms to keep you Ravagers alive longer? Or just put NS on everything? But how effective is NS if you move closer than 36" to disembark/shoot with the units you're transporting?

Another factor is if I'm taking Eldar allies (thinking of fielding Farseer on jet bike, cheap squad of scoring bikes, squad of Warp Spiders and 3x War Walkers for more S8 AP2 shots since they have the same cost per shot as Ravagers), the War Walkers won't be able to have NS, so if my opponent's 36" AT weapons can't fire at my Ravagers they can still fire at the Walkers, so it kind of makes NS worthless in this case.

I'm at a big dilemma regarding NS
Help me citizens of Commorragh!

I'm gunna disagree with everyone here.

I have been on the no upgrades on any tank crew since 6th hit but my attitude has changed recently. Why? well Tau ofc. With the introduction of Tau onto the topurnament scene, the meta has shifted to a 36 inch game. By fixing night shields on the ravagers the opponants broadsides/Barges etc will have to come towards you, a situation you can use to your advantage especially if it means they have to walk past there own wall.

Would i put them on venoms too? no, that is too costly imo ifyou have 7 venoms that would be 100 points. Whereas 30 points is less of a loss. I'm off to the tournay at the end of the month which is stuffed full of tau guard and eldar. So well see how that pans out.

I played 3 games againts TAU last weekend with my Night shielded Force. It didn't work out. I ran out of room to maneuver in every game. The ability to run before shoot wrecks skimmers easily. Even though I avoided most of the pathfinders. Add to that Riptide with its 72" large blast ordnance which makes it more difficult to withdraw toward your own corner/side.

I'm lookin forward to your tournament report:) 

The only game where I felt night shields would have been useful on my ravagers vs Tau was when my opponent tried to blatantly tailor with a S7 spam broadside list (BR25: The Black Buzzards VS Tau Mass Broadsides - 1500pts). But that was only because he forgot to bring any weapons that could shoot over 36", still didn't need them to win, but they would have been nice. Though I would have thought a competent Tau player should have more than enough ranged or mobile threats to take out your ravagers regardless of night shields.

Mushkilla wrote:

The only game where I felt night shields would have been useful on my ravagers vs Tau was when my opponent tried to blatantly tailor with a S7 spam broadside list (BR25: The Black Buzzards VS Tau Mass Broadsides - 1500pts). But that was only because he forgot to bring any weapons that could shoot over 36", still didn't need them to win, but they would have been nice. Though I would have thought a competent Tau player should have more than enough ranged or mobile threats to take out your ravagers regardless of night shields.

yeah i read that one, forntunatly in the meta in the south mass str 7 is still big business.

The nightshields are definatly on the tweaking table im gunna post up my list later. not now tho its dinner time