Wych Cult. What do they need.

I think that would make them far too expensive for what they're supposed to do. They're a Troops choice. They shouldn't really be 3++ with an option for 3 Agonisers.

Really, all Wyches need is a little buff to allow their dodge inv to work on overwatch, Wych Weapons with a bit more bite/utility and if we're lucky a little bit of a points decrease. WS5 would be nice though, and very fitting.

Perhaps 1 Wych Weapon that is killy, another that is tactical and maybe one inbetween. Old Shardnet, one that conveys Fleshbane and one that conveys Rending? Gives each weapon a niche, and gives Wyches a little flexibility about what they can handle.

For Bloodbrides, just keep the convention of allowing them more Wych Weapons. If the Wych Weapons themselves are worth it, then Bloodbrides become worth it to be able to take more of them

Massaen wrote:

Gladiators are not elite heavy infantry killers (we have incubi for that). Wyches should not get rending - I think they should get the bladestorm version. Basically its rending but only works against T values. They are not tank hunters afterall - they are gladiators.

Giving them a standard rule that removes the 2CCW bonus is also a neat and themed idea.

Giving them an extra attack base (or maybe rage instead?) seems fitting.

Wyche weapons should again, not be AP related - but going back into 3rd edition and handing the unit a cost to equip wyche weapons (say 1ppm) and giving the unit shred(fists), defensive grenades (net), counter attack (flails) could work.

Have you been reading my homebrew? Pretty much all of the above is in there.

amorrowlyday wrote:

Unless it has the GMC tag.

Cheap fleshbane on Bloodbrides would both resolve our lack of efficient means of dealing with GMC's and differentiate between them and wyches.

Soooo you want to try to tie up a jump-gargantuan creature (aka Wraithknight) with T3 models that first have to cut through its 4+ and FNP? Not to forget stomp.

Fleshbane or not, good luck with that.

Is there a real need to separate two entries? What does bloodbrides get? More Wych Weapons, +1 atack? Does that really justify new unit?

Troops can be killy. Look at Harlies book.

Something definitely needs to be done to Bloodbrides. If they become an elite choice you want them to feel like one.

I disagree. They're not at all specifically designed to be a tarpit unit. They ACCIDENTALLY became a tarpit unit because they suck at actually killing anything, but have an OK save once they're actually in combat.

Let's not mistake that for them being designed to tarpit. They aren't. They were more able to tarpit when they had multiple wych weapons that lowered the number of attacks each opponent in base contact got by 1, AND had a 4++, while having the ability to carry haywire grenades on an entire squad(justifying their presence in the game to begin with). Without the haywire grenades, there was little reason to field them BEFORE. And they were better tarpits BEFORE.

Making a T3 unit with a 10-model unit cap able to survive overwatch won't make them good. It won't even make them good tarpits. You could give them banshee masks and the fearless special rule, and they still wouldn't be very good. Certainly better than now, but not good, and definitely not able to do what wyches do in the fluff.

I know people think it's "boring", but often, the most simple answer is the most effective, and I think that is the case here. Rending would make wyches the swiss army knife of close combat. They'd be able to deal with just about anything on some level, while being best against things without crazy good armour saves. Incubi would still outperform wyches against 2+ armour by leaps and bounds. That honestly fits the fluff, which says wyches are pitted against every type of enemy you can imagine, from wild animals and warp beasts to space marines, terminators, dreadnoughts, and carnifexes. Rending is the ONLY rule I've heard so far that allows them to fit the fluff, being able to POSSIBLY kill one of each of these things, while not being overpowered on a 10 point troop.

I'm not looking for a wych to be able to reliably down a carnifex. But based on the fluff, some HAVE, and some CAN, and rending represents that extreme skill that allows a skinny space elf to find the weakness in a suit of terminator armour with a knife, or strike a soft spot in a huge behemoth with a distinct lack of soft spots like a carnifex.

So, it is my sincere hope that wyches get the rending special rule, and further, get haywire grenades back. There is nothing stopping wyches from fighting things like dreadnoughts in the arena, and many wych cults fight as much in the battlefield as in the arena, with spectators watching from floating barges above, so the tired old excuse that wyches shouldn't be fighting tanks is silly. The haywire grenades force occupants from their vehicles without killing them, allowing for the wyches outside to make a spectacle of their death in the ensuing melee combat. Nothing could be more appropriate than haywire grenades for wyches.

So...how about Shardnet that reduces enemy attacks, Razorflails that convey Rending (or Bladestorm?) and Hydra Gauntlets that convey Fleshbane (or give +2 attacks at AP5 instead of +1), coupled with a price decrease and the 4++ working for overwatch.

If we work with the kit that's already provided they need to have weapon options that do something. Just giving them Rending full stop means there's no real reason to give them any upgrades (which I feel is a shame).

Plus, as I said, fix the upgrades and you fix Bloodbrides. If the upgrades are worth it, then so are the people who can take more of them.

I don't agree with that at all, if they got all that they'd be great vs mass infantry, great vs high armor saves, a very effective tarpit to boot and even a tiny 50 point unit would reliably knock out landraiders in a single charge.

vs

Points reduction to around 7~
4+ Dodge in combat AND vs overwatch.
Better specialist weapons, including Nets -1 attack back.
and a better, far more useful combat drugs table.

How would they knock out a landraider in a single charge? You can only use a max of 1 grenade in combat any more, and their rending attacks couldn't even hurt a land raider. So at best they'd put 1 hullpoint on a landraider, and they would only have about a 50% chance to do that.

You're severely overestimating the results of adding rending and haywire grenades to a S3/T3 unit.

Also, they wouldn't be "great" against things like TEQ. They wouldn't be completely SCREWED by being in a fight with TEQ, but they also wouldn't fare as well as equal points of Incubi either. Incubi, point for point, will still be better against both 2+ and 3+ armour opponents. Rending will mostly just make wyches better at killing poorly armoured things, while capable of not running away crying like girls the first time they run into TEQ. With no ability to KILL anything, they lose combats and flee. They need some OFFENSE to be able to even tarpit effectively, in the absense of fearless, or something that prevents them from fleeing combat. Further, wyches as a tarpit unit is the most unfluffy thing we could possibly do. They need some teeth.

Making them the swiss army knife: A passable tool in multiple situations but not what you'd pick to melee a bear, makes them both fluffy and effective. Incubi are still the greatsword you take to fight the bear, but they don't come with a corkscrew for the afterparty.

I disagree that Wyches are good vs hordes or mass infantry. The 4++ they get would be more effective vs low numbered specialty units. Without it being 2 or 3++ in combat mass attacks vs them is bad..very bad. TheI killing potential vs hordes is another matter. This has been my experience anyway

Wyches are currently really poor against pretty much every target and they desperately need a boost to their offensive capability. Bouncing off Fire Warriors on the charge is just plain embarrassing!

The changes that I incorporated into my fandex looks at their wargear as well as the Wych units themselves, but many of the changes I implemented were inspired by the updated 3rd ed and 5th ed codexes as well as a few ideas others have floated before.

Hydra Gauntlets, Razorflails and Shardnet and Impaler are all combined into simply "Wych Weapons". In each combat phase you choose an effect, either -1 to the enemy models attacks for all models in the unit (to a minimum of 1), re-rolls of 1 To-Hit or re-rolls of 1 To Wound. Can't choose the same effect two turns in a row. Hellglaives gain AP4. Stunclaw regains it's old 5th ed rules for Snatched. Electrocorrosive Whip dropped to 10pts. Archite Glaive is +2S, AP2, Two-Handed or +1S, AP2. Agoniser is 5pts cheaper.

Drug Dispensers are back, 10pts lets a unit choose their combat drug for the game. Hellion Skyboards have Jink and can be used in both the Movement and Assault Phases.

Succubus. Pretty much the same, but with more options like Hellion Skyboards and Reaver Jetbikes, Clone Fields and Soul Traps. The Dodge special rule is now changed to give a 4++ throughout the Assault phase and not just the Fight sub phase. Close Combat Weapon in basic profile replaced with Wych Weapons. Gladiator special rule gives re-rolls To Hit.

Lelith Hesperax. S4 base and a rule thats basically Poison (4+) but with a different name (so still works on GMC's).

Wyches. WS5 and A2 base. Close Combat Weapon replaced with Wych Weapons. Dodge changed as above. Hekatrix gains +1A and Ld for 5pts instead of 10.

Bloodbrides. WS5, A3, Ld9 base for 13pts each. Wych Weapons, Gladiator special rule and changed Dodge. Any model can be upgraded to special weapons. Syren +1WS, BS, W, I and A for 12pts, can take an Archite Glaive or Shaimeshi Blade.

Reavers. Unchanged, they're awesome already.

Hellions+1A base, changes to the Hellglaive, Stunclaw and Skyboard will make them much more worthwhile.

Edited the math after a good point by amorrowlyday that incubi have 2 attacks base (oops) (But the wyches numbers where correct)

I might not be a very experienced general, but I agree that rending might not be the way to go with wyches.
You say that wyches with rending would not be better at killing TEQ and MEQ then incubi?
incubi 20 pt wych 10 so half the number.
Against any TEQ combat specialists wyches win
4 wyches on the charge: 3 attacks each 50% hits: 6 hits: 1 rending wound +1 wound /6 with saves: 1.1667 wounds
2 incubi on the charge: 3 attacks each 50% hits 50% wounds 1.5 wound

Normal MEQ
6 wyches on the charge 3 attacks each 50% hits: 9 hits: 1.5 rending wound  +1.5 wound/3 with saves: 2 wounds
3 incubi on the charge 3 attacks each 66.7% hits 50% wounds: 3 wounds
So we can say roughly equivalent, but this is without combat drugs and grenades the incubi fall further behind.

So incubi are slightly better against armor, but since they cost twice as much any death in combat is hurting them twice as much as well losing 1 incubi reduces the damage by 1/3 while 1 wych reduces damage by 1/6.

Now I must say the wyches are not better at killing MEQ and TEQ with rending as I initially though (although with the right roll for combat drugs the wyches are very close to the incubi).  


What is the advantage of haywire for every wych over on the hecatrix, since you can only use 1 in each phase, is it not just that they are not as easy to snipe out of the unit?

Your math is inaccurate because you're ignoring the armour save for the non-rended wound. It isn't 1.166 wounds it's 1.027 wounds. Furthermore your math is based on a falsehood. Incubi have 2 attacks base. So it isn't 2 attacks on the charge each it's 3.

Your observations are simply wrong.

For completeness based on your own math: incubi do 1.5 wounds.

And yes the only benefit for squadwide haywire grenades is you don't have to worry about who dies.

I used to reject the idea of Rending for Wyches but I like it a lot more now that I have heard Betray the World's explanation (fluffsplanation?).  It doesn't make sense to me that Wyches would really be able to do that much more damage to vehicles though and this, in combination with the fact that it doesn't make sense that Rending wyches would just as likely rend against TEQ as against Guardsmen convinced me to give them a rule that forces the enemy units to re-roll successful saves.  This makes sense to me because a Wych that faces a Terminator is going to completely ignore pretty much anything but the eyes, whilst against a Guardsman with a greater target area will be less choosy.  This mirrors gameplay.  In game Wyches will be most efficient against 2+ armor saves as those saves will have to be re-rolled the most, but against Guardsmen will be less efficient because the same precision circumvents less armor.  This, coupled with 4++ means they will do fine against TEQ but don't necessarily have AP2 and will do reasonably well against all-comers.  I don't want them to specialize since they are troops.  I want them to be able to capture weakly-held objectives and be able to bolster any other melee specialist unit in their roles.

For regular Rending we have Reavers.  For melee anti-horde we (or at least I in my fandex) have Hellions.

Now that I like fluffy, not overpowered, and gives them a fairly unique buff.

Still need to fix Wych Weapons, but there's plenty of ideas for those I still like the idea of Hydra Gauntlets conferring Fleshbane so our 10pt Wyches can at least spook a GMC

Tounguekutter wrote:

give them a rule that forces the enemy units to re-roll successful saves.

The problem with this is that it doesn't resolve their inability to hurt high toughness things like a carnifex, yet in the fluff they are pitted against such tough creatures in the arenas. Furthermore, most players in a game that is already bloated with lots of phases and dice rolls wouldn't support a rule that DOUBLES dice rolls in a particular area(rerolling successful saves).

In both of these cases, once again, rending is the answer. It solves both of these problems in a simple, elegant way by applying a special rule that already exists.

Rending makes for FEWER dice rolls(by denying armour saves on a rend), and enables wyches to OCCASIONALLY both wound something that is high toughness, and find the weak point in a suit of armour, which is all that is necessary rule-wise to have wyches rules match their fluff.

Furthermore, I don't know that you realize how big of a difference in results you're talking about. With your suggestion, only roughly 30% of wyches wounds against a terminator will result in an unsaved wound, and wyches are only wounding on 5+ anyhow. With rending, 50% result in an unsaved wound. So your suggestion both cuts their capability in half, and eliminates their ability to hurt higher toughness things.

Now, we could give them poison or something, but one must ask the question: Why apply 2-3 special rules requiring more dice rolls when 1 special rule with LESS dice rolls would work perfectly?

@|Meavar: Bear in mind that Incubi are still far more resiliant than wyches on the way in, too. They have a 3+ armour save vs. shooting and vehicle explosions compared to wyches 6+ t-shirt save. And I think Incubi should get assault grenades or an equivalent, so that is also a moot point. Furthermore, your math used Incubi in a very inefficient way. 3 Incubi with a Klaivex for rampage makes the number of attacks they generate per point significantly higher than you represented. So they'd be even MORE ahead of wyches against MEQ and TEQ, maybe even against 4+ saves as well. The fact is, Incubi will STILL be the best option against good armour saves. Wyches just won't be AWFUL like they are now. And haywire grenades for the whole squad make sense for the reasons I previously described. I wouldn't mind making them optional, where you pay 1 point per model to give the whole squad haywire grenades.(Used to be 2 ppm when the whole squad could use them.)

Definitely coming around to the Rending option TBH. What would it do to Wyches' efficacy against vehicles? Not particularly au fait with Rending vs vehicles, but it doesn't seem particularly fluffy for Wyches to be hacking apart AV10. Bladestorm both sounds fluffier, and restricts their attacks to units with a toughness value.

Then add onto that the old Shardnet, maybe Hydra Gauntlets unchanged or providing additional attacks, and something doing with Razorflails (re-roll to hit is practically useless). Fix Wych Weapons and you fix Bloodbrides

Ynneadwraith wrote:

Definitely coming around to the Rending option TBH. What would it do to Wyches' efficacy against vehicles? Not particularly au fait with Rending vs vehicles, but it doesn't seem particularly fluffy for Wyches to be hacking apart AV10. Bladestorm both sounds fluffier, and restricts their attacks to units with a toughness value.

Very much agree with this. I have serious issues with slender Wyches taking on battle tanks with a dagger. Bringing a knife to a gunfight is one thing but bringing one to a tank battle is something else entirely!

Yeah. The Polish tried that in WW2. Fantastically brave, but didn't work out so well...

Edit: just googled it confirming my facts and apparently that was a half-truth espoused by the German propaganda machine. There was a clash between Polish cavalry and German tanks, but the former didn't charge the latter with lances.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Tounguekutter wrote:

give them a rule that forces the enemy units to re-roll successful saves.

The problem with this is that it doesn't resolve their inability to hurt high toughness things like a carnifex, yet in the fluff they are pitted against such tough creatures in the arenas. Furthermore, most players in a game that is already bloated with lots of phases and dice rolls wouldn't support a rule that DOUBLES dice rolls in a particular area(rerolling successful saves).

In both of these cases, once again, rending is the answer. It solves both of these problems in a simple, elegant way by applying a special rule that already exists.

Rending makes for FEWER dice rolls(by denying armour saves on a rend), and enables wyches to OCCASIONALLY both wound something that is high toughness, and find the weak point in a suit of armour, which is all that is necessary rule-wise to have wyches rules match their fluff.

Furthermore, I don't know that you realize how big of a difference in results you're talking about. With your suggestion, only roughly 30% of wyches wounds against a terminator will result in an unsaved wound, and wyches are only wounding on 5+ anyhow. With rending, 50% result in an unsaved wound. So your suggestion both cuts their capability in half, and eliminates their ability to hurt higher toughness things.

Now, we could give them poison or something, but one must ask the question: Why apply 2-3 special rules requiring more dice rolls when 1 special rule with LESS dice rolls would work perfectly?

The problem with this is that with or without Rending, Wyches are still wounding a Carnifex, or anything else with T6, on 6's, only now they completely ignore armour when they do so. A squad of 10 Wyches can potentially bring down a Carnifex in a single round of combat with Rending (need a bit of luck for that 4th wound but not impossible).

I am completely against Wyches having Rending as it's not remotely fluffy.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Tounguekutter wrote:

give them a rule that forces the enemy units to re-roll successful saves.

The problem with this is that it doesn't resolve their inability to hurt high toughness things like a carnifex, yet in the fluff they are pitted against such tough creatures in the arenas. Furthermore, most players in a game that is already bloated with lots of phases and dice rolls wouldn't support a rule that DOUBLES dice rolls in a particular area(rerolling successful saves).

In both of these cases, once again, rending is the answer. It solves both of these problems in a simple, elegant way by applying a special rule that already exists.

Rending makes for FEWER dice rolls(by denying armour saves on a rend), and enables wyches to OCCASIONALLY both wound something that is high toughness, and find the weak point in a suit of armour, which is all that is necessary rule-wise to have wyches rules match their fluff.

Furthermore, I don't know that you realize how big of a difference in results you're talking about. With your suggestion, only roughly 30% of wyches wounds against a terminator will result in an unsaved wound, and wyches are only wounding on 5+ anyhow. With rending, 50% result in an unsaved wound. So your suggestion both cuts their capability in half, and eliminates their ability to hurt higher toughness things.

Now, we could give them poison or something, but one must ask the question: Why apply 2-3 special rules requiring more dice rolls when 1 special rule with LESS dice rolls would work perfectly?

I really don't see why Wyches need to be able to deal with TEQs. In most circumstances we can deal with TEQ and MCs just fine.

Rending? I'm more on the re-rolling saves front but I would be fine with that just as well.
We really need some kind of anti-save mechanism. And it really is only on a 2+ that rending is noticable stronger than re-rolling saves (I did the mathhammer and rending is about par with re-rolling saves on a 3+).

However, rending should only come in the form of Bladestorm and certainly not on every Wych, but in the form of a Wych weapon. Fixing the weapons and letting every Bloodbride have their own Wych Weapon has the convenient side effect of fixing Bloodbrides as well.

Now, also improve Combat Drugs and make them a tad cheaper so we can play them more in a MSU style and we would have a wonderful unit at our disposal.


On another note, it looks like many want to have a swiss-army knife type of unit that you can throw against every unit and expect it to win no matter what. I think it should be taken into account that we have multiple melee units and units like Wracks crave for a buff just as much as Wyches do. Apart from that, Wyches really are just a Troop choice and should be treated as such (of course, there are also higher-tier troop-choices like Troupes, but you also pay a very elite-price for them).

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

The problem with this is that it doesn't resolve their inability to hurt high toughness things like a carnifex, yet in the fluff they are pitted against such tough creatures in the arenas

I know our codex but I can't recall where that was ever stated. Surely you can help me and say at which page I can find that. As far as I am aware the word "Tyranid" is only dropped when it comes to trophies of Succubi and Lelith.

Also, talking about bringing down (G)MCs with Poison and Fleshbane, I think Wracks would be far better suited for that for a number of reasons.

Edit: @Imateria I am concerned about that as well. Perhaps rolls of 6 should just confer AP2 to attacks made with this weapon.

Imateria wrote:

I am completely against Wyches having Rending as it's not remotely fluffy.

I agree with what you said but not what you meant. Rending, in the specific meaning of the USR, is not something I would support, for reasons that I've gone into on many occasions. A 'Bladestorm' ability where To Wound (not armour pen) rolls of a 6 wound automatically and are AP2 is something that I would consider to be extremely fluffy, representing the ability to find chinks in heavy armour, vulnerable spots/vital organs on big beasties etc.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Imateria wrote:

I am completely against Wyches having Rending as it's not remotely fluffy.

I agree with what you said but not what you meant. Rending, in the specific meaning of the USR, is not something I would support, for reasons that I've gone into on many occasions. A 'Bladestorm' ability where To Wound (not armour pen) rolls of a 6 wound automatically and are AP2 is something that I would consider to be extremely fluffy, representing the ability to find chinks in heavy armour, vulnerable spots/vital organs on big beasties etc.

Absolutely agree.

Plus, they're supposed to go up against all manner of gribbly monstrosities in the arenas on a regular basis.

In the fluff if a squad of Wyches can't take down a Carnifex then they're not going to last very long at all...

Count Adhemar wrote:

Ynneadwraith wrote:

Definitely coming around to the Rending option TBH. What would it do to Wyches' efficacy against vehicles? Not particularly au fait with Rending vs vehicles, but it doesn't seem particularly fluffy for Wyches to be hacking apart AV10. Bladestorm both sounds fluffier, and restricts their attacks to units with a toughness value.

Very much agree with this. I have serious issues with slender Wyches taking on battle tanks with a dagger. Bringing a knife to a gunfight is one thing but bringing one to a tank battle is something else entirely!

Rending against vehicles would represent something like wyches swarming all over the vehicle with their insane levels of acrobatic grace, and managing to do things like cut some important wires going to a battery or something. It should be noted that even with rending, they'd never be able to hurt an AV13+ vehicle, and would only be able to hurt AV10+ on a 6 to penetrate.

This is plenty fluffy, as I said representing cutting something like wires on an undercarriage that are important but not particularly difficult to cut with a knife.

Furthermore, wyches closest relative(daemonettes) have rending, are cheaper, and no one says that's not fluffy, despite them being S3/T3 models attacking with plain melee weapons, just like wyches.

And all of these can ALREADY melee most vehicles to death with a standard CC weapon, and many aren't even MELEE focused units:

1. Tactical Marines(And every other type of space marine)
2. Ork Shoota Boyz (And every other type of actual Ork)
3. Every single daemon unit except nurglings and pink horrors.
4. Chaos space marines
5. Eldar Striking scorpions, shining spears, and of course wraithguard
6. Every single type of Harlequin(Some can even melee AV13+ vehicles)
7. Inquisition Daemonhosts, Arco-flagellants, and death cult assassins(all in wych price range)
8. Every single type of necron
9. Every single Tau of the infantry type except fire warriors, drones, and kroot.
10. Every type of Tyranid.
11. Countless special characters across the spectrum of factions.

So, basically, after looking into this, almost everything in 40k can hurt most vehicles in CC with normal CC weapons. So tell me again why it isn't fluffy for wyches to be able to hurt tanks in CC? "Fluffy" means, fitting within the game world and previously established story. Based on the above information, I don't know how anyone could possibly argue against it fitting. Every S4 or higher model is able to hurt most vehicles already, without any sort of melee weapon or special rule. The same holds true for every S3+ model that also has furious charge, or some other way to add at least 1 strength to their attacks. Hacking vehicles apart with melee weapons or even your bare hands is a well-established practice in 40k as demonstrated above. With wyches legendary precision, acrobatics, and skill with a blade, the idea that they may score a "critical" or rending hit against a vehicles wiring or something is not at all unfluffy. The idea that one of the most skilled groups of fighters in the lore is also among the only ones incapable of hurting a vehicle in the game is a bit tough to swallow.