Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks

aurynn wrote:

Yea, but this is misleading. 500pts of your shooting should not kill 500pts of his units. If you bring down full bear of your army on them, you should kill them just fine.

So what if this was a 500 point game? The fact is that Hellstrom had 5 attempts to build a 500 point list that could kill ~400 points of Necrons and couldn't manage it!

Why didnt you just play 4 Ravagers with Dis Cannons? He will never get within range, you ignore if 1st save and wound on 3's.

36 S5 shots if you move 6" 6.1-12" its 24 full BS shots and 18 snap shots (but he cant get to you)

Hellstrom - try 26 Mandrakes in 3 units however you want to split them

The -1 to hit negates the Immortals extra hits, and Baleblast can outshoot the Warriors and Immortals at range. You should have enough firepower if you can bring it all to bear at once to wipe out the Immortals, so no reanimations, and you can take the Warriors in shooting or melee.

amishprn86 wrote:

Why didnt you just play 4 Ravagers with Dis Cannons? He will never get within range, you ignore if 1st save and wound on 3's.

Points aren't right to get 4 as they rock in at 185 each.

If the table is big enough you could play run away games and whittle them down.

OH.... you mean 8th ed rules? I must have missed that bit XD

Hellstrom wrote:

I'm in exactly the same position with DE.  Last night I played against:

20 warriors - Gauss Flayer - 240 pts.
10 Immortals - Tesla Carbines - 170 pts

He let me pick 500 points of any DE I wanted and just try and kill them.  Anyone want to try and make a list that can get anywhere NEAR beating that, because I couldn't manage it in 5 attempts.

Can you beat them in cc? You could get 12 grots for 480 pts. They seem to suck in cc.

Painjunky wrote:

Hellstrom wrote:

I'm in exactly the same position with DE.  Last night I played against:

20 warriors - Gauss Flayer - 240 pts.
10 Immortals - Tesla Carbines - 170 pts

He let me pick 500 points of any DE I wanted and just try and kill them.  Anyone want to try and make a list that can get anywhere NEAR beating that, because I couldn't manage it in 5 attempts.

Can you beat them in cc? You could get 12 grots for 480 pts. They seem to suck in cc.

I was thinking this too, can also take Beasts, stay out of Rapid fire range to only take like 20 hits lose 5 or so models and just move>charge>cc

Count Adhemar wrote:

aurynn wrote:

Yea, but this is misleading. 500pts of your shooting should not kill 500pts of his units. If you bring down full bear of your army on them, you should kill them just fine.

So what if this was a 500 point game? The fact is that Hellstrom had 5 attempts to build a 500 point list that could kill ~400 points of Necrons and couldn't manage it!

In low points games quality beats quantity and I agree we pull a short straw there, but I guess it was just to demonstrate the toughness of the necrons. TBH I never played a 500pts game. Ever. So what I meant is that as a model situation for a standard W40K battle this is misleading. This will be one of the Necron strenghts given what I read. They are built for this and should be good at this. Its like asking Necron to catch Reavers in movement phase. I am not saying they are not tough, merely that its a bad example of a standard-size game situation.

Necrons is all about a slow moving impending doom, you HAVE to out move them. If you are not on a table big enough to do so then you dont play against them as DE.

DE is all about out positioning the opponent, charge when you want to, stay at the distance you want etc...

On a 4x4 with  24" deadzone at the start and you are backed an additional 11" you effectively have 2 turns of full shooting before he makes it into the middle of the table to stand his ground, (Walking Necrons neesd to be in the middle of the table to get the most out of shooting/movement on a 4x4, sense you can Advance and still shoot this is a smart move).

After 2 turns you should have done enough damage to win you the game.

We have amazing 36" range guns, use them

I didn't try Beasts, as I don't have any, but that might be a possibility. Grotesques (or any other CC unit) would need a Transport to get to target and would likely lose that transport before it made the assault (with the transport I mean), so you are then left with 380 points of models to attempt the charges. I tried it with Wyches and Incubi, neither worked. Just got wiped before I made it into combat.

amishprn86 wrote:

Necrons is all about a slow moving impending doom, you HAVE to out move them. If you are not on a table big enough to do so then you dont play against them as DE.

DE is all about out positioning the opponent, charge when you want to, stay at the distance you want etc...

On a 4x4 with  24" deadzone at the start and you are backed an additional 11" you effectively have 2 turns of full shooting before he makes it into the middle of the table to stand his ground, (Walking Necrons neesd to be in the middle of the table to get the most out of shooting/movement on a 4x4, sense you can Advance and still shoot this is a smart move).

After 2 turns you should have done enough damage to win you the game.

We have amazing 36" range guns, use them

Which ones? 36" guns ?? Dark Lances and Ravager Dissies? Count how many you can bring in 500 points now. It's very little. Even moreso if you have to be Battleforged.

@amishprn86 +1
We cannot outgun or outswing everything. If Hellstrom managed to kill those Necron in a heatbutt shooting (everything in range, no cover, etc.) I would be veeeery much surprised and felt very OP towards them. We were never this kind of army and as far as I remember, headbutting Necron was always a very bad idea.

aurynn wrote:

@amishprn86 +1
We cannot outgun or outswing everything. If Hellstrom managed to kill those Necron in a heatbutt shooting (everything in range, no cover, etc.) I would be veeeery much surprised and felt very OP towards them. We were never this kind of army and as far as I remember, headbutting Necron was always a very bad idea.

Why would there be no cover? The game isnt built for open ground old westren shootouts or fist fights.

I could just take Tau then and blow him off the table and say Tau isnt balanced.

Also does wounds spill over like in AoS? If so Scourge DL's or Ravager DL's might be better.

Xivai wrote:

Oh yeah we are. Look at Necron Destroyers. Way cheaper and more cost effective than a fully kitted Crisis suit with drones. In a one on one fight one of them would probably kick a crisis ass and the crisis team is way more than spamming them. They can also move and shoot heavy weapons with no penalty. They also hit on 3+ where as we are hitting on 4+ or possibly 5+ if we have to advance move to try run away which seems pointless since he can do the same thing at the same speed and still be firing at bs 4+.  

Ok, lets compare them...

Crisis team is 8/5+/4+/5/5/3/2/7/3+ for 42 points a model, can shoot 3 weapon systems, deep strike, have supporting fire and have a vague morale buff. None of their weapons are heavy so the fact destroyers can fire heavy on the move is not relevant. They can be tailored for a number of tasks and combined with marker lights and support systems, can be made to advance and fire well, increase AP and more. Drones can also eat wounds for the suits with ease.

Destroyers are 10/3+/3+/4/5/3/2/10/3+ for 43 points a model. They can shoot heavy weapons on the move - though they only have access to 2 weapons and both are heavy. Reanimate is a big thing but can be mitigated by removing the whole unit.

They actually look pretty even in a bubble - with the crisis teams being more flexible in load outs while the destroyers are potentially more durable - assuming they have at least 1 model left. The destroyers are slightly faster. The multiple weapon systems of the crisis team offset the lower BS, and apart from the plasma rifle, all of the weapons on the crisis are assault weapons. Even if the destroyers do chase down suits to fight in combat, the combat is fairly even thanks to the higher S of the crisis team against the higher volume of hits from the destroyers.

Honestly - this contest is a wash. The destroyers pay at almost half their cost again for the basic weapon they carry and for a similar cost, the crisis team have more than a few options.

I was thinking about about a Stormsurge.

A Tau friend told me its cheap AF now (Under 500pts) so im trusting him until i read the points.

T7, 20w, 3+ save

Chaster Rockets: 48" 4d6, S5, 0ap, 1D
Destroyer Missiles 60" x4: 60" Hits on 6+ always, D3 mortal wounds
2 Flamers: 8" 2d6 S4 (can replace both for 2x Pulse Blastcannon)
Pulse Blastcannon: 30" 6, S10, 0ap 1D
or 20" 4, S14, -2ap, 3d
or 10" 2, S14, -4ap, 6d

Choppa da shooty gits. I'd try to go for a big impact hit on the crons. What would hit the hardest against them? A raider full of 4 grots, haemonculi and maybe a character? 9 Incubi and Drazhar in a raider?

The grots would be able to last awhile, but with 4 attacks and very little AP now, they don't hit as hard as the Incubi would. The Incubi + Drazhar in a raider sit around 450pts and should be able to chop through a blob of 20 crons.

Now this would be in a perfect world with a lot of assumptions but...with the incubi set up, raider absorbing overwatch, we'd be looking at something like 32 attacks coming in, hitting on a 2+ and half wounding. so 13, 14 (13. something dead on the swing, maybe losing some more from morale tests (maybe). Assuming no morale loss, with 7 left alive, they'd have a decent chance at killing an incubi model in retaliation(0.86). 4 more would return when the turn ends, they'd swing first with 11, with a better chance to kill an incubi model (1.35). And this is where it gets scary. Down 6 attacks from two dead Incubi you'd supposedly be able to kill 11-12(11.38) models assuming you rolled average. by this time it will be your turn and using the raider to hunt down and tie up the immortals, which, if it goes down you'll have to use Drazhar to tank the overwatch, cause yikes S5. So on paper you'd be able to win, but you'd absolutely have to get that alpha strike off. Depends on how much LOS blocking terrain you have.

*Note* Raider CC attacks not included in calculations, Morale losses ignored.

fight summary:
Incubi kill 13.8, assume no loss from morale. Warriors down to 7
Warriors kill .86, 4.33 get back up. Warriors up to 11, Incubi down to 8+Dr.
Warriors kill 1.35 Incubi down to 7 + Dr.
Incubi kill 11.38, assume no loss from morale.

Immortals vs. Incubi final fight comes down to using Raider/Dr. as a shield for the remaining squad.

Raider absorbing overwatch? I think it must absorb at least one round of shooting, if opponent has any tape around.

A haemonculus coven raider will in theory have +1 toughness with a haemy nearby, so it might be better suited for the role.

Azdrubael wrote:

Raider absorbing overwatch? I think it must absorb at least one round of shooting, if opponent has any tape around.

Barrywise wrote:

this would be in a perfect world with a lot of assumptions

*NOTE*: 20 Gauss Flayer shots on average do about 3 (2.96) wounds to a raider. 20 Tesla Carbines will do 3-4 (3.33) wounds. 10 Gauss Blaster shots do about 1.5 (2.96/2) wounds.


Also forgot that disembarking occurs in the start of the movement phase. Assuming an open field and your opponent is being smart about attack range, you are hovering just outside of the 29" threat range. 14 inch movement with an advance roll, 15-20 inches. ("blistering speed" ...) you're now, at worst, 14 inches away. your opponent has the option of moving to 12 inches and rapid fire, or moving back to 19 inches to single fire. Option 1 does just about 10 wounds to the raider. That sucks. Option 2 does about 6 (6.3) wounds. Either you're blown up, with the warriors 12" away or you're moving 10 inches closer next turn to get blown up then. Dang you're right about that. And the immortals don't care about rapid fire, they'll keep their 24 inches away from you.

edit: Forgot about falling back too. aww shiz biz. Necrons scary. Mandrakes might be the go to for that alpha strike potential then.

edit2: I don't think Grots have enough killing potential to kill the warriors fast enough.

I'm struggling to see any reason at all to take grots as they are now, especially now that flesh gauntlets ALWAYS wound on 4+. They're almost always going to be wasted points because you'll be swinging your standard CCW to wound on 3s. On top of that they seem VERY easy to remove by almost all heavy weapons

first, many of those warriors will die to firing before you charge them, so their wound count will be mellowed a bit. Second, before charging with raiders we can charge a squad with reavers, hellions or mandrakes, or perhaps sacrifise a venom. Reavers can keep them from falling back as well.

As I see it the 500 points of necrons could be defeated fairly easily by just taking say 60 kabalite warriors and 5 splinter cannons. Preferably 6 but it would be 510 points.

Potentially trade out 10 kabalites for five blasters.

Leninade wrote:

I'm struggling to see any reason at all to take grots as they are now, especially now that flesh gauntlets ALWAYS wound on 4+. They're almost always going to be wasted points because you'll be swinging your standard CCW to wound on 3s. On top of that they seem VERY easy to remove by almost all heavy weapons

I was thinking the same. They were my favourite unit, but now they seem downright nerfed.
Neither do they deal enough damage nor do they have the staying power to return their points.

They can all take liquifiers instead of hackers. Leaving you a flamer unit for 150 points

Garbage bin flamers. 5 of them will run you 60 points for an average of 10 S3 hits. And I believe you're trading in your ability to swing at S5 AND giving up a CC attack for the privilege. Look elsewhere.