Are the Dark Eldar supposed to be an Elite army?

Dark Reapers have 6" movement how are they mobile? And range dont matter as much when you have open top vehicles.

FuelDrop wrote:

Trueborn can be half-assed Fire Dragons (blasterborn), Half Assed Warp Spiders (Shredderborn), or half assed Dire Avengers (Splinterborn). They lack any rules or options that allow them to excel as their own unique thing.

But they can do all 3, thats the point of flexibility..... Not to be "BiS for this 1 job" but to be "able to do all these jobs".

Im not saying they are better, im saying they can have more options that you can kit out, hence why they they more for less ability...

IDK what your even arguing? Im saying trueborn have multi roll slots so they are weaker due to being Jack of All trades and your arguing they are weak? YES THEY ARE...

B.c you feel they are not "good enough" to be "flexible" doesnt mean they are not and was not built for a flexible roll.

Fire Dragons had a purpose when they were created, you dont look at them thinking "Hey they are amazing Anti-horde unit" no but Trueborns can be made to fight against Hordes, can be made to fight against Tanks, can be made to fight against etc.. Yeah they will not do it as well but you have those options.

Just like Reavers, just like many DE units, they are built to be flexible (hurt everything easier than other armies) and became over costed.

Especially in 8th where S1 can hurt T10000 our unique ability to hurt everything isnt as good for the points anymore. Still doesnt mean we are not flexible.

amishprn86 wrote:

Dark Reapers have 6" movement how are they mobile? And range dont matter as much when you have open top vehicles.

FuelDrop wrote:

Trueborn can be half-assed Fire Dragons (blasterborn), Half Assed Warp Spiders (Shredderborn), or half assed Dire Avengers (Splinterborn). They lack any rules or options that allow them to excel as their own unique thing.

But they can do all 3, thats the point of flexibility..... Not to be "BiS for this 1 job" but to be "able to do all these jobs".

Im not saying they are better, im saying they can have more options that you can kit out, hence why they they more for less ability...

IDK what your even arguing? Im saying trueborn have multi roll slots so they are weaker due to being Jack of All trades and your arguing they are weak? YES THEY ARE...

B.c you feel they are not "good enough" to be "flexible" doesnt mean they are not and was not built for a flexible roll.

Fire Dragons had a purpose when they were created, you dont look at them thinking "Hey they are amazing Anti-horde unit" no but Trueborns can be made to fight against Hordes, can be made to fight against Tanks, can be made to fight against etc.. Yeah they will not do it as well but you have those options.

Just like Reavers, just like many DE units, they are built to be flexible (hurt everything easier than other armies) and became over costed.

Especially in 8th where S1 can hurt T10000 our unique ability to hurt everything isnt as good for the points anymore. Still doesnt mean we are not flexible.

I think I can see why we are disagreeing.

You are arguing that one unit that can be outfitted with different loadouts is a flexible unit.
The problem is that once outfitted, they become a specialist unit. So what we are paying more for is having less units in the codex.

I would love for Trueborn to be tactically flexible. It would not be difficult: add grenades (Anti Infantry for certain, maybe even anti-vehicle), melee weapons stock (+1 attack swords or something). Boom, no matter what the loadout they have tactical flexibility, able to adapt to a variety of situations that a squad of aspect warriors could not deal with.

Back in 7th edition, you were right. Haywire grenades and plasma grenades meant that any loadout of trueborn had at least some tactical flexibility. In 8th these assets and options have been removed, taking with them the flexibility that they had over aspect warriors.

Side note: Trueborn do not have a good option vs hordes. Shredders get an average of 2 attacks that reliably wound, but they are not more accurate or better able to deal with even basic body armour, and the small number of reliable wounds they generate vs infantry are not enough to really be good against hordes.

Finally: Dark Reapers can move 6" and fire their heavy weapons without penalty. They also get access to several transportation options, which are all potentially faster than ours (16" for all of them, Star Engines give 2d6 advance).

I personally think that a tantalus filled with three 5 man squads of blasterborn is faster than pretty much anything with the tantalus's ability to literally double its movement speed when it advances and its still open topped which to my knowledge none of the craftworld eldar transports have. So the party bus as I call it has the ability to ferry 15 blaster shots, and it has the 12 shots from its own weapons. However, you do pay a very hefty cost for all of that. So in terms of mobility, our trueborn still have that going for them at least.

Mppqlmd wrote:

What strikes me is that the lore clearly states that they have access to Splintercarbines and Ghostplates armors. If the rules allowed it, i'm sure they would be played more. 4+/6++ would change everything for them, and splintercarbine as a default weapon would be awesome as heck.

They used to have Shard Carbines as a 5pt upgrade( you could also take a pistol/ccw instead and give the dracon ghostplate) but like alot of things it was taken out post 5th ed updates :/ I used to take 2-3 10 man squads with 2 cannons, 4 blasters and 4 carbines was expensive as hell but it killed anything it fired at. It remains one of my favorite units and saddest changes.

FuelDrop wrote:

The lack of focus means that it can always do something, but that same lack of focus means it does nothing WELL.

Welcome to generalist units see tac marines as to why they are both great and useless at the same time. the counter is if you have enough generalist units you can do everything well.

FuelDrop wrote:

Trueborn can be half-assed Fire Dragons (blasterborn), Half Assed Warp Spiders (Shredderborn), or half assed Dire Avengers (Splinterborn). They lack any rules or options that allow them to excel as their own unique thing.

Except you are looking at trueborn in a vacuum here which is pointless because like all of our shooting infantry they are balanced around the fact we get open topped transports which allow our half assed fire dragons to move 14-20 fire 18 and still be relatively protected from return fire. Not once has anyone looked at a squad of fire dragons and said "yep they are totally not a suicidal tank hunting unit". the same applies to their other options although i still think shredders are bad and you should just mix cannons and blasters ...

helvexis wrote:

Except you are looking at trueborn in a vacuum here which is pointless because like all of our shooting infantry they are balanced around the fact we get open topped transports which allow our half assed fire dragons to move 14-20 fire 18 and still be relatively protected from return fire. Not once has anyone looked at a squad of fire dragons and said "yep they are totally not a suicidal tank hunting unit". the same applies to their other options although i still think shredders are bad and you should just mix cannons and blasters ...

This. The open topped ability that all of our transports share is probably one the best abilities we have in our arsenal. This effectively gives our infantry the mobility of vehicles for free.

Sanore wrote:

This. The open topped ability that all of our transports share is probably one the best abilities we have in our arsenal. This effectively gives our infantry the mobility of vehicles for free.

well not quite free we aren't a space marine demi-company but the point stands

Open topped IS damn good. Even better this edition, since our enemies don't even get firing points like they used to.

Factoring that in to unit prices does kinda lock us into one style of play though.

Frankly, what I want is more options, not having every unit gutted with every codex/index since 5th.

FuelDrop wrote:

Frankly, what I want is more options, not having every unit gutted with every codex/index since 5th.

now this i wholeheartedly agree with although in the indexs defense it kind of had to happen because of how big the changes were to the rules ... in theory the dex has interesting things ...

I'd personally like to see our hqs get mobility options like our craftworld cousins have. Being able to put an archon/haemonculas/succubus on a jetbike or whatever that thing hellions ride would be amazing, or possibly even wings like the scourage have. I don't think their's any fluff that specifically says that the hqs can't use vehicles/wings.

Sanore wrote:

I'd personally like to see our hqs get mobility options like our craftworld cousins have. Being able to put an archon/haemonculas/succubus on a jetbike or whatever that thing hellions ride would be amazing, or possibly even wings like the scourage have. I don't think their's any fluff that specifically says that the hqs can't use vehicles/wings.

Well back in my day, our Archons could get on a Jetbike any time he wanted! Then 5th edition came along, and insurance would no longer cover bike related injuries for Archons. So they were all left to gather dust in the garage. But we still had our beloved Baron, who ruled the Hellions from his Skyboard, in between fights with his nemesis Spider Man.
But then he was captured by Shield and shoved into prison in the Raft. Now, as to why our vehicles cannot fit a full squad plus a HQ. This tale is long and full of woe, but to sum it up: We fought the Taxi Driver union and lost. So now all our pilots have to be union approved and abide by union rules.

FuelDrop wrote:

Sanore wrote:

I'd personally like to see our hqs get mobility options like our craftworld cousins have. Being able to put an archon/haemonculas/succubus on a jetbike or whatever that thing hellions ride would be amazing, or possibly even wings like the scourage have. I don't think their's any fluff that specifically says that the hqs can't use vehicles/wings.

Well back in my day, our Archons could get on a Jetbike any time he wanted! Then 5th edition came along, and insurance would no longer cover bike related injuries for Archons. So they were all left to gather dust in the garage. But we still had our beloved Baron, who ruled the Hellions from his Skyboard, in between fights with his nemesis Spider Man.
But then he was captured by Shield and shoved into prison in the Raft. Now, as to why our vehicles cannot fit a full squad plus a HQ. This tale is long and full of woe, but to sum it up: We fought the Taxi Driver union and lost. So now all our pilots have to be union approved and abide by union rules.

You get the reward for making me laugh . I didn't know we used to have vehicle options for the hqs back in the day though. I've only been paying 40k since last year.

Sanore wrote:

FuelDrop wrote:

Sanore wrote:

I'd personally like to see our hqs get mobility options like our craftworld cousins have. Being able to put an archon/haemonculas/succubus on a jetbike or whatever that thing hellions ride would be amazing, or possibly even wings like the scourage have. I don't think their's any fluff that specifically says that the hqs can't use vehicles/wings.

Well back in my day, our Archons could get on a Jetbike any time he wanted! Then 5th edition came along, and insurance would no longer cover bike related injuries for Archons. So they were all left to gather dust in the garage. But we still had our beloved Baron, who ruled the Hellions from his Skyboard, in between fights with his nemesis Spider Man.
But then he was captured by Shield and shoved into prison in the Raft. Now, as to why our vehicles cannot fit a full squad plus a HQ. This tale is long and full of woe, but to sum it up: We fought the Taxi Driver union and lost. So now all our pilots have to be union approved and abide by union rules.

You get the reward for making me laugh . I didn't know we used to have vehicle options for the hqs back in the day though. I've only been paying 40k since last year.

Way back we had all the cool gear. Seriously creepy stuff too!

I miss the Shattershard. It was a mirror we could capture the image of our enemies in and shatter, killing all those who's image we had so captured.

Stuff like that was really badass.

FuelDrop wrote:

Sanore wrote:

FuelDrop wrote:

Sanore wrote:

I'd personally like to see our hqs get mobility options like our craftworld cousins have. Being able to put an archon/haemonculas/succubus on a jetbike or whatever that thing hellions ride would be amazing, or possibly even wings like the scourage have. I don't think their's any fluff that specifically says that the hqs can't use vehicles/wings.

Well back in my day, our Archons could get on a Jetbike any time he wanted! Then 5th edition came along, and insurance would no longer cover bike related injuries for Archons. So they were all left to gather dust in the garage. But we still had our beloved Baron, who ruled the Hellions from his Skyboard, in between fights with his nemesis Spider Man.
But then he was captured by Shield and shoved into prison in the Raft. Now, as to why our vehicles cannot fit a full squad plus a HQ. This tale is long and full of woe, but to sum it up: We fought the Taxi Driver union and lost. So now all our pilots have to be union approved and abide by union rules.

You get the reward for making me laugh . I didn't know we used to have vehicle options for the hqs back in the day though. I've only been paying 40k since last year.

Way back we had all the cool gear. Seriously creepy stuff too!

I miss the Shattershard. It was a mirror we could capture the image of our enemies in and shatter, killing all those who's image we had so captured.

Stuff like that was really badass.

That and the old drug dispenser rules for HQs was nice. It was, pick a drug for your model every turn. Want a second one, sure, take that too. Want a third, ok. 4th, why not....

OH, but go ahead and roll as many dice as drugs you just took. Any doubles... looks like you OD.. take a few wounds too



It was so damn fluffy and fun and useful. It rewarded risk-taking behavior and let you really gamble big. Archon on jetbike with a powersword - move up the table and get the +1 att, st, and t drug - now you have a 6 attack melee beast, hitting on 3's wounding marines on 4, and at t 5! With a shadowfield.

I was halfway through converting an archon on a bike when the 5th ed codex dropped....

You know, I could see something similar coming back this edition dealing mortal wounds or something.

Ye old archon build used to be: Punisher (+1str power weapon), tormentor helm (+1 attack pistol helmet), drug dispencer and shadowfield with the bike being optional(i think you couldnt take the shadowfield on a bike... unsure). And the drugs was 12" charge, +1 attack, +1 strength, always strikes first, +1 ws and +1 toughness (im unsure on the last 2). Roll a die for each drug you take and on a double take a wound no saves and on a triple OD and die on 2 triples ... laugh hysterically as the poor guy melts from too much super space coke.

I used to run him without the bike he moved up 12 in the raider, got out 3, ran d6 and then assaulted 12. I used to charge him into literally anything(from gusrd squads to jainzar to a carnifex once) nobody expected an archon cruise missile to be charging t1 or occasionally clutching his heart and falling over ...

Firstly, that drug dispenser rule is freaking awesome. Seems super fluffy as well.

Hm, for 8th, maybe something like,
Drug Dispenser: At the beginning of each turn, the bearer of the Drug Dispenser may roll any number of dice, provided it does not exceed ten. Compare the results to the Combat Drugs table, and apply the corresponding bonuses. However, if any doubles are rolled, the bearer suffers a number of mortal wounds equal to the total number of dice rolled. For example, an Archon rolling two dice, both landing on sixes would suffer two mortal wounds. A bearer rolling three dice, with two fours in the results would suffer three mortal wounds.

Anyway! Looking back at the Trueborn subject, here's a bit of information regarding their anti-infantry capabilities. Two cannons on 5 Trueborn come in at 85 Points. Ten Kabs and a Cannon are identical in price. The former will put out 18 shots of Splinter Fire ((Assuming everything in rapid fire)), while the latter will put out 24, while having five additional wounds.

Granted, the transport will help more with AI while costing less than a Raider, but unless you're really gunning for that Venom, on a point per point, Kabs beat out Trueborn in this :/

I wouldn't mind if Trueborn took the Devestator Route, where they're just Kabs that can take a bunch more Special and Heavy Weapons.

It'd certainly be a step forward for the Vat Grown Activists, proving that it's economics, not innate superiority, that separates Kabalites and Trueborn.

You could argue that trueborns are physically more fit due to not being created by a clumsy cloning method. But yeah, their advantage is wealth. So they should buy themselves a bloody armor. And have access to some unique transport (but that would require to expand the lore a bit). Or to unique weaponry, and not just "like the half-born, but more".
Also, it could be cool to group Half-born and Trueborns together and create a squad where you could take both, a bit like Black Templars Crusaders SM. Just my 2 cents.

I think giving the trueborn their grenades back will help them be the jack of all trades that they seem to be. They're highly customizable with only the scourges getting the same number of special/heavy weapons in a 5 man squad. However, unlike the scourges which can move a fast pace and deep strike the trueborn have nothing really justifying their steep price increase over regular kabalites. I personally like the idea of making them tougher by giving them better armor or something like a wych's dodge invulnerable save. The fluff could justify either with like how Mppqlmd said above with them being more physically fit for dodging or with their increased wealth for armor. As it stands right now trueborn in my opinion are completly outclassed by scourges. 5 scourges with 4 blasters is only marginally more expensive than trueborn with the same setup. However scourges don't need a transport to move around the battlefield efficently like the trueborn do.

I think Darklight grenades should be our equivalent to Krak grenades: Cheap, light AV to give squads some flexibility if they encounter something out of their weight class. Haywire grenades should be our Melta, putting out a d6 of haywire attacks and being something people pay points for rather than be standard equipment.

For anti-infantry, Snare Grenades. Basically they launch a ton of barbed micro-harpoons attacked to monowire, anchoring themselves and trapping anyone near them. Any poor sod who tries to get them out bare-handed is losing a finger or two thanks to monowire, and it leaves them perfect pickings for the Dark Eldar.
Maybe Grenade D6, S3, AP -1, D 1, rerolls failed wounds vs infantry, target unit cannot overwatch or advance next turn?

Preventing advances is pretty useless at that range, so i'd say : remove 2 from target's movement and charge distance.

Mppqlmd wrote:

Preventing advances is pretty useless at that range, so i'd say : remove 2 from target's movement and charge distance.

That seems like a good alternative.

Because let's be honest, if they are at 'nades range, they will not advance. They will shoot, assault, or both.

But yeah, shredding grenades would be neat

Mppqlmd wrote:

Because let's be honest, if they are at 'nades range, they will not advance. They will shoot, assault, or both.

This is very true.
I do think that grenades, maybe even stock CCW for both Warriors and Trueborn, would be a good way to add tactical flexibility. And an extra attack stock for Wyches (with a rejiggering of Wych weapons so they are all viable options) so that the Warriors are not outdoing them in CC.

For wyches :
- 2 attacks on the base profiles.
- Razorflails being AP-2, reroll to hit
- Every other weapon (including base ones) AP-1
- Hydra remain what they are
- Impaler stays at D2, with AP-1, and Shardnet gains a fluffy rule (bonus to "No Escape"/a rule for capturing prisoners/whatava).

Those are only minor tweaks, but would make such a huge difference.