1500 newbie list

Hey there, I feel I need to move onto my next army, and Dark Eldar seem to be calling me. I do play other armies, but nobody in my local scene plays them, so I have zero experience. we do play 1500 points so that's the end target.

Because I'm still learning things about the army, I'm fully expecting this to be full of bad units and poor choices, feel free to point them out as I'll be needing all the advice I can get.

So without further rambling;

HQ - 185
Archon - 185
- Agoniser
- Blaster
- Soul Trap
- Webway Portal
- Shadowfield

Troops - 210
5 Kabalite Warriors - 105
- Venom
  - Splinter Cannon

5 Kabalite Warriors - 105
- Venom
  - Splinter Cannon

Fast Attack - 664
5 Scourges - 120
- 4 Haywire Blaster

5 Scourges - 120
- 4 Haywire Blaster

3 Reavers - 98
- Arena Champion
  - Agoniser
  - Cluster Caltrops

3 Reavers - 98
- Arena Champion
  - Agoniser
  - Cluster Caltrops

3 Reavers - 63
- Cluster Caltrops

Razorwing Jet fighter -165
- Dark Lances
- Splinter Cannon
- Night Shields

Allied Detatchment - 340

HQ
Spirit Seer - 70

Troop
Wraith Guard - 210
- D-scythes

Fast Attack
Crimson Hunter 160

The plan was for the Archon to go with the Eldar foot troops and kill a unit that others would struggle with... i.e. terminators... other than that I think the list is fair self explanatory. If you do have any questions feel free to ask, I'll be more than happy to answer anything

Feel free to pick it apart and dissect it... then we can put it back together... but better!

Cheers for the input

zhambah wrote:

HQ - 185
Archon - 185
- Agoniser
- Blaster
- Soul Trap
- Webway Portal
- Shadowfield

This is a lot of points to make him multifunctional - I would tend not to do this (I'd probably just go shooty Archon or toss in a Succubus w. Glaive) That said, for the purpose of the unit it kind of makes sense. Eh, I'm thinking you'll feel a sad sense of loss pretty often whenever your Archon whiffs a save and is insta-glibbed.

zhambah wrote:

Troops - 210
5 Kabalite Warriors - 105
- Venom
  - Splinter Cannon

5 Kabalite Warriors - 105
- Venom
  - Splinter Cannon

You're a former Space Marine player, aren't you?
Basically I would say these need Blasters.

zhambah wrote:

Fast Attack - 664
5 Scourges - 120
- 4 Haywire Blaster

5 Scourges - 120
- 4 Haywire Blaster

There are okay - I'd probably sack one to help me get a Ravager though. The purpose of the Ravager and Scourge are a bit different, as the Ravager will be better at forcing jinks and also possibly pop things in one hit.

zhambah wrote:

3 Reavers - 98
- Arena Champion
  - Agoniser
  - Cluster Caltrops

3 Reavers - 98
- Arena Champion
  - Agoniser
  - Cluster Caltrops

3 Reavers - 63
- Cluster Caltrops

These are okay - your list is looking very anti-infantry heavy at this stage. Do you not fave much mech?

zhambah wrote:

Razorwing Jet fighter -165
- Dark Lances
- Splinter Cannon
- Night Shields

The s.cannon is a poor upgrade unless you see lots of FMCs. I'd save the points.

zhambah wrote:

Allied Detatchment - 340

HQ
Spirit Seer - 70

Troop
Wraith Guard - 210
- D-scythes

This is okay.

zhambah wrote:

Fast Attack
Crimson Hunter 160

This is okay.

I feel the army is oddly biased towards killing infanty, with almost all of your anti-armor tied into the flyers who will be starting in reserve and not available till turn 2-3 or so. If your meta is infantry heavy and mech light this should go fine. If it's the other way around I would suggest doing some adjustments.

In terms of the Archon, and giving him a blaster - if he's going to get into combat a lot then consider a blast pistol for the extra attack with the agoniser. You have a webway portal so you don't need to worry about him being in range the turn he arrives, but if you're planning on keeping the unit out of combat then the blaster is the better option.

As Thor said, you appear to be very light on anti-tank - poisoned weapons are great but they don't give you the backup of shooting rear armour at S4 that bolters do. With two Scourge squads, they should average about 4.5 hull points per turn (statistically, obviously in real life then you'll probably manage 4 or 5) but remember that glancing hits, which is where their strength comes from, don't stop the tanks firing back - you need to either penetrate and hope you roll low, or wreck it for that to happen.

Many would advise taking around 14+ darklight weapons in a 1500 list. I think you can bring that down a bit with scourges in the list but I'd still look to take at least 8 as the bare minimum, and remember that lances are extremely useful at killing more than just tanks (Broadsides, for example, anything T4 with multiple wounds is a prime target for instant death from a lance).

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

HQ - 185
Archon - 185
- Agoniser
- Blaster
- Soul Trap
- Webway Portal
- Shadowfield

This is a lot of points to make him multifunctional - I would tend not to do this (I'd probably just go shooty Archon or toss in a Succubus w. Glaive) That said, for the purpose of the unit it kind of makes sense. Eh, I'm thinking you'll feel a sad sense of loss pretty often whenever your Archon whiffs a save and is insta-glibbed.

Yeah, I seem to be trying to counter every situation, because the group is going to be deep in enemy territory I want a combat character, so if the need arises i wont simply lay down and die. but I don't actually want the group in combat, because lets face it, it wont do that well. with that being said I can probably get rid of the agoniser... and with that the soul-trap.

The Shadowfield was from a rough draft where i had a Farseer as the allied Eldar HQ, giving me a chance for a 2+ re-roll-able invulnerable save. But I swapped it for the Spiritseer to get the Wraithguard as troops and cut down on points. I'm not adverse to swapping it out.

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

Troops - 210
5 Kabalite Warriors - 105
- Venom
  - Splinter Cannon

5 Kabalite Warriors - 105
- Venom
  - Splinter Cannon

You're a former Space Marine player, aren't you?  
Basically I would say these need Blasters.

Actually no, well... that's a lie... my first army was CSM, and i have a (very) small grey knight army (under 500 points) but I only bring out the CSM for beginner games... and the grey knights were part of my inquisitorial army. I mainly play Chaos Daemons and Tau (boo hiss I know lol)

The reason I didn't include blasters with them is I didn't want to be picking between armour and meat targets. It's nice to have the option. my plan is to sit in cover and pump out 17 poisoned shots per group. If I put blasters in there I've got to think about moving, trying to take a pop shot at a tank... effecting wasting 4 poisoned shots, and 1 of the venom's cannon's snap firing.

It seems by adding a blaster it makes my unit multi-functional, but also decreases the fire power substantially

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

Fast Attack - 664
5 Scourges - 120
- 4 Haywire Blaster

5 Scourges - 120
- 4 Haywire Blaster

There are okay - I'd probably sack one to help me get a Ravager though. The purpose of the Ravager and Scourge are a bit different, as the Ravager will be better at forcing jinks and also possibly pop things in one hit.

see, I've seen a marked decrease in popping things in one hit, and now mainly rely on glancing to death, and in my humble opinion nothing does it better than the scourges with haywire blasters. and I would rather have a dead tank than one that has had to jink.

ravager
3 Dark lances, 2 hit, 1 hull point and a 1/6 chance of killing it outright
scourges
4 haywire blasters, 2.6 hits, say 2 for fairness... each with a 83% of doing a hull point of damage. I'd rather go the safer route and get the larger number of shots which will ultimately end in the same result of a dead tank

The best result for the ravager i can find is against toughness characteristic. which if facing my venoms and kabalites would work better against

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

3 Reavers - 98
- Arena Champion
  - Agoniser
  - Cluster Caltrops

3 Reavers - 98
- Arena Champion
  - Agoniser
  - Cluster Caltrops

3 Reavers - 63
- Cluster Caltrops

These are okay - your list is looking very anti-infantry heavy at this stage. Do you not fave much mech?

unsure on that "fave" was it an abbreviation of favour, or a misspell of face?

assuming the first...
I normally go fully mech or no mech. my reasoning behind this (and why this has changes with dark eldar) is if you go all mech, people only bring a certain number of anti tank guns, if you go no mech those anti tank guns will be force to kill infantry, thereby gaining an advantage. the reason that this has a mix of mech and infantry is Dark Eldar tanks are squishy... like oh so squishy... its the equivalent to having a toughness 6 monster on the field... with 2 wounds, so even Bolters can do damage against it, granted, needing a 6 to glance... but still.

Assuming the second
My meta is quite varied, and because are games aren't determined until we turn up you can't list tailor, which is a fairer way to play in my opinion.

We have a Tyranid monster player, a blob squad Guardsman player... then on the other end we have a DAngles player who maxes the amount of armour he brings, likewise a Spacemarine player likes to bring more than a couple drop pods... its not uncommon for a land raider to be seen. then there are the Necron players that bring a mix of tanks and infantry. the grey knight player brings his 2 dread knights every game... that's just the most common players... and as i said before, its a roll off to see who plays who.

so one week I could face all the tanks, another time i could face nothing but toughness

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

Razorwing Jet fighter -165
- Dark Lances
- Splinter Cannon
- Night Shields

The s.cannon is a poor upgrade unless you see lots of FMCs. I'd save the points.

That is a very good point, consider it scrapped.

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

Allied Detatchment - 340

HQ
Spirit Seer - 70

Troop
Wraith Guard - 210
- D-scythes

This is okay.

Thank you

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

Fast Attack
Crimson Hunter 160

This is okay.

I feel the army is oddly biased towards killing infanty, with almost all of your anti-armor tied into the flyers who will be starting in reserve and not available till turn 2-3 or so. If your meta is infantry heavy and mech light this should go fine. If it's the other way around I would suggest doing some adjustments.

As I said, my meta is random... also forgot to mention that many of the players have multiple armies. so it's getting to the point where its as random as possible to avoid list tailoring

I kinda see where you're coming from with the anti-mech not being on the board till turn 2-3... but don't forget, scourges don't have to deep strike, in fact if going first i would advocate against it... depending on the setup you can still deploy them on the table if going second... they have a 36" threat range... you can normally find a target with them. granted the ravager has a larger threat range with 1 gun firing normally... and the same threat range with all 3. but as i earlier stated i'd prefer the extra shot at stripping a hull point

back to the flyers, the reason i took the flyers is because one of the Necron players runs a flying circus, and pretty much everyone in my meta brings at least 1 flyer. the crimson hunter is, in my opinion the best anti air flyer in the game, and it would be silly not to take it given that. the reason i took took the razorwing is i had points left over.

Thank you for your input thor, its been enlightening... and i'll take your advice under consideration and begin the tweeking

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

In terms of the Archon, and giving him a blaster - if he's going to get into combat a lot then consider a blast pistol for the extra attack with the agoniser. You have a webway portal so you don't need to worry about him being in range the turn he arrives, but if you're planning on keeping the unit out of combat then the blaster is the better option.

Think i'll be sticking with the blaster, as I wont be charging anything with that unit, and if something can survive 5d3 str 6 ap2 hits... then im not going to hurt it in combat.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

As Thor said, you appear to be very light on anti-tank - poisoned weapons are great but they don't give you the backup of shooting rear armour at S4 that bolters do. With two Scourge squads, they should average about 4.5 hull points per turn (statistically, obviously in real life then you'll probably manage 4 or 5) but remember that glancing hits, which is where their strength comes from, don't stop the tanks firing back - you need to either penetrate and hope you roll low, or wreck it for that to happen.

This is something that i love about Dark Eldar... its nicely sectioned... the scourges are pretty much the only unit from my dark eldar part that is multi-functional... if there's no tanks on the field I'm likely facing Tyranids... and that means 4+ saves... which also means no armour saves against haywire. everything else in the army is, "ok you fight this, and you fight that" and with the speed of Dark Eldar it means you can fight what you want to fight... wow i seem to be using the word fight a lot, I hope I'm getting my point across

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Many would advise taking around 14+ darklight weapons in a 1500 list. I think you can bring that down a bit with scourges in the list but I'd still look to take at least 8 as the bare minimum, and remember that lances are extremely useful at killing more than just tanks (Broadsides, for example, anything T4 with multiple wounds is a prime target for instant death from a lance).

Hmmm, interesting... this is completely counter to advice I got off a friend where he said the age of dark lance spam is over where would you recommend dropping points from... and where would you squeeze them in? please keep in mind that I'm not a ravager fan... to me it just seems like a razorback with more firepower, costing a lot more, and has a huge target on its forehead lol

But thank you for the advice... please do say where you would squeeze in some darklight weapons

Current verson of list;

HQ - 110
Archon - 110
- Blaster
- Webway Portal

Troops - 210
5 Kabalite Warriors - 105
- Venom
- Splinter Cannon

5 Kabalite Warriors - 105
- Venom
- Splinter Cannon

Fast Attack - 664
5 Scourges - 120
- 4 Haywire Blaster

5 Scourges - 120
- 4 Haywire Blaster

3 Reavers - 98
- Arena Champion
- Agoniser
- Cluster Caltrops

3 Reavers - 98
- Arena Champion
- Agoniser
- Cluster Caltrops

3 Reavers - 63
- Cluster Caltrops

Razorwing Jet fighter -155
- Dark Lances
- Night Shields

Allied Detatchment - 340

HQ
Spirit Seer - 70

Troop
Wraith Guard - 210
- D-scythes

Fast Attack
Crimson Hunter 160

Total: 1414

which leaves 86 points to squeeze in 5 Darklight weapons... this might be a challenge please any advice is greatly appreciated

Drop one unit of Reaversm then add

5 Kabalite Trueborn 175
- 4 Blasters
- Raider
-- Dark Lance

Wouldnt that just serve the same purpse of a ravager... only more glass cannon

To me having one unit tbats putting put the pain is just putting a target on that unit. Perhaps spreading the darklights over other units?

after some careful consideration (as well as reading some other threads) would this incarnation be any better?

HQ - 110
Archon - 115
- Blaster
- Webway Portal
- Haywire Grenades (as I had 5 points to play with)

Troops - 240
5 Kabalite Warriors - 120
- Blaster
- Venom
 - Splinter Cannon

5 Kabalite Warriors - 120
- Blaster
- Venom
 - Splinter Cannon

Fast Attack - 664
5 Scourges - 120
- 4 Haywire Blaster

5 Scourges - 120
- 4 Haywire Blaster

3 Reavers - 98
- Arena Champion
- Agoniser
- Cluster Caltrops

3 Reavers - 98
- Arena Champion
- Agoniser
- Cluster Caltrops

3 Reavers - 73
- Cluster Caltrops
- Blaster

Razorwing Jet fighter -155
- Dark Lances
- Night Shields

Allied Detatchment - 480

HQ
Spirit Seer - 110
- Mantle of the Laughing God

Troop
Wraith Guard - 210
- D-scythes

Fast Attack
Crimson Hunter 160

Total: 1499

I have 3 blasters that start of the field, 2 warrior squads and a reaver squad. I'm hesitant to put the blaster in the reaver squad as i'll be jinking most of the time... but other than putting in a unit that becomes a giant bullseye and is the first thing my opponent will target, i don't see any other option

if I'm facing a mech heavy army I will likely deploy the scourges at the start.

ofcourse, after the first turn it gets much easier with 2 from the razorwing, and 2 bring lances from the crimson hunter, not to mention the blaster from the archon, and the d-scythes on the wraith guard

I was curious as to how the voidraven bomber performs... as that is one sexy looking model... and i could be persuaded to drop the razorwing for it

what say you oh wise and knowledgeable forum dwellers?

The start to look like playable. I wouldn't take mantle for spiritseer as it's more usefull with bikeseer. Dump it and take armor of misery for archon. The spiritseer, archon and w-guard droping in is going to make a big impact. The seer is going to get psychic shrieck for sure and AoM is good combo with it.

lol thank you

first off that would be a brilliant combo... except its a little pointless. Theres 5 wraithguard and an archon... as you say they are going to make a big impact, and the AoM is only a 6" bubble, so anything that's going to take the shriek would likely take the 5 templates and a blaster as well... unless i play off the charts aggressively and try to take out 2 squads with 1 unit?

Wouldn't it be better protecting such a valuable unit (435 points with mantle, 410 with AoM) that gives them all a 4+ cover save while out in the open?

zhambah wrote:

The reason I didn't include blasters with them is I didn't want to be picking between armour and meat targets. It's nice to have the option. my plan is to sit in cover and pump out 17 poisoned shots per group. If I put blasters in there I've got to think about moving, trying to take a pop shot at a tank... effecting wasting 4 poisoned shots, and 1 of the venom's cannon's snap firing.

The Venom's Cannons would never snap shot from moving - vehicles have relentless.
Also, the Blaster is not a waste against infantry, indeed it is actually a very excellent anti-infantry weapon. Just consider the numbers presuming you are in rapid fire range;

5 s.rifles
vs. MEQ = 1.11 wounds after armor
vs. GEQ = 3.33 wounds after armor
vs. TEQ = .55 wounds after armor

4 s.rifles+1 Blaster
vs. MEQ = 1.43 wounds after armor
vs. GEQ = 3.21 wounds after armor
vs. TEQ = .99 wounds after armor

So, the numbers make it either slightly better or slightly worse (favoring better by a decent margin) against infantry targets - basically being more of a help vs. better armor saves, though less of a help versus better cover saves. It can also cause instant death.

I don't really see *any* weakening of your anti-infantry shooting and I do see a *vast* increase in your ability to threaten literally any unit in the game. For 15 points, that seems well worth it to me.

That's my reasoning.

zhambah wrote:

see, I've seen a marked decrease in popping things in one hit, and now mainly rely on glancing to death, and in my humble opinion nothing does it better than the scourges with haywire blasters. and I would rather have a dead tank than one that has had to jink.

I disagree - what I want is a tank that has limited ability to hurt me next turn. Stripping off 2 hull points is meaningless to me if it is alive and can shoot at full BS next turn.
Stripping one hull point and making it snap fire functionally makes it 'dead' for a phase so I can worry about other targets.

That's why I think lances remain superior to haywire weaponry and why the Ravager continues to have a valuable place that the Scourges cannot easily replace.

zhambah wrote:

My meta is quite varied, and because are games aren't determined until we turn up you can't list tailor, which is a fairer way to play in my opinion.

I agree.
Your list will be weak vs. the mech lists - I'd adjust with less anti-infantry and more anti-mech tools.

zhambah wrote:

I kinda see where you're coming from with the anti-mech not being on the board till turn 2-3... but don't forget, scourges don't have to deep strike, in fact if going first i would advocate against it... depending on the setup you can still deploy them on the table if going second... they have a 36" threat range... you can normally find a target with them. granted the ravager has a larger threat range with 1 gun firing normally... and the same threat range with all 3. but as i earlier stated i'd prefer the extra shot at stripping a hull point

Just to clarify - the Ravager can move 6 and fire 3 normally, or move up to 12 and fire 2 normally.

I expected the Scourges to be on the board - but 2 squads of Scourges can kill, at best, 2 vehicles. Even presuming they both can get line of fire and cause 3+ hull points it is still, to my mind, a weak-wristed opening. If you were fighting my usual DE sort of list I wouldn't even blink, and most of your army would be unable to cause any damage to me.

As regards your new list;

I don't get the purpose of the Mantle at all.

I consider the VR Bomber a pretty terrible vehicle.

I agree that Blasters are not optimal on Reavers.

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

The reason I didn't include blasters with them is I didn't want to be picking between armour and meat targets. It's nice to have the option. my plan is to sit in cover and pump out 17 poisoned shots per group. If I put blasters in there I've got to think about moving, trying to take a pop shot at a tank... effecting wasting 4 poisoned shots, and 1 of the venom's cannon's snap firing.

The Venom's Cannons would never snap shot from moving - vehicles have relentless.
Also, the Blaster is not a waste against infantry, indeed it is actually a very excellent anti-infantry weapon. Just consider the numbers presuming you are in rapid fire range;

Ah yeah, skimmer rules... See I'm learning Thank you for that.

Thor665 wrote:

5 s.rifles
vs. MEQ = 1.11 wounds after armor
vs. GEQ = 3.33 wounds after armor
vs. TEQ = .55 wounds after armor

4 s.rifles+1 Blaster
vs. MEQ = 1.43 wounds after armor
vs. GEQ = 3.21 wounds after armor
vs. TEQ = .99 wounds after armor

So, the numbers make it either slightly better or slightly worse (favoring better by a decent margin) against infantry targets - basically being more of a help vs. better armor saves, though less of a help versus better cover saves. It can also cause instant death.

I don't really see *any* weakening of your anti-infantry shooting and I do see a *vast* increase in your ability to threaten literally any unit in the game. For 15 points, that seems well worth it to me.

That's my reasoning.

My reasoning wasn't that the blaster couldnt be used against infantry, only that the unit would waste shots because I need more anti-tank and having a blaster in there makes that unit an anti tank unit. and I would be wasting some of my anti-infantry.

on while we're on the topic of how much anti-mech and anti-infantry i have.

Anti-mech;
2 units of scourges, 1 Razorwing, 1 crimson hunter

Anti-infantry;
2 Venom's, 3 squads 3 of reaver's.

Fufill both roles;
Wraithguard unit, 2 units of Kabalite warriors

It seems pretty balanced, if i face an all mech list i'll struggle, and if i face an all infantry list it wont be optimal. in my opinion its fairly balanced in that regard. I think our meta's might be a tad different hehe.

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

see, I've seen a marked decrease in popping things in one hit, and now mainly rely on glancing to death, and in my humble opinion nothing does it better than the scourges with haywire blasters. and I would rather have a dead tank than one that has had to jink.

I disagree - what I want is a tank that has limited ability to hurt me next turn. Stripping off 2 hull points is meaningless to me if it is alive and can shoot at full BS next turn.
Stripping one hull point and making it snap fire functionally makes it 'dead' for a phase so I can worry about other targets.

That's the thing, I'd rather have a dead tank. I know its a gamble to go for more shots = the chance of a dead tank vs less shots = they are forced to jink. Also if i added a ravager instead of a unit of scourges, its my only tank... like real tank. So any of there high str weaponry is going to do exactly what you was planning on doing to them and targeting my tank to make me snapshot, and because of the armour value on our tanks if they can ignore the cover i'll be forced to jink just for them looking at me.

Where as if they want to waste their high str weaponry on scourges... be my guest as high str weaponry comes at a premium.

Thor665 wrote:

That's why I think lances remain superior to haywire weaponry and why the Ravager continues to have a valuable place that the Scourges cannot easily replace.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. It's not that im disregarding your advice, i know you're a very experienced player from listening to the podcast. its just seems that our meta's are different in a fundamental way. out of curiosity how many full mech lists do you see?

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

My meta is quite varied, and because are games aren't determined until we turn up you can't list tailor, which is a fairer way to play in my opinion.

I agree.
Your list will be weak vs. the mech lists - I'd adjust with less anti-infantry and more anti-mech tools.

Yeah this has been pointed out a few times in this thread, what im lacking is understanding of the knowledge what you call anti-infantry and anti-tank as i said earlier i think its fairly balanced.

In fact compared to my daemons this is rather anti-mech list... and my tau for that matter. As i say, must be a difference of meta's

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

I kinda see where you're coming from with the anti-mech not being on the board till turn 2-3... but don't forget, scourges don't have to deep strike, in fact if going first i would advocate against it... depending on the setup you can still deploy them on the table if going second... they have a 36" threat range... you can normally find a target with them. granted the ravager has a larger threat range with 1 gun firing normally... and the same threat range with all 3. but as i earlier stated i'd prefer the extra shot at stripping a hull point

Just to clarify - the Ravager can move 6 and fire 3 normally, or move up to 12 and fire 2 normally.

Yeah my mistake, first time playing with these pesky skimmers that can do all this and a bag of chips. my only armies with mech have been inquisitor and csm, so I'm new to this ol' firing at full ballistic skill

Thor665 wrote:

I expected the Scourges to be on the board - but 2 squads of Scourges can kill, at best, 2 vehicles. Even presuming they both can get line of fire and cause 3+ hull points it is still, to my mind, a weak-wristed opening. If you were fighting my usual DE sort of list I wouldn't even blink, and most of your army would be unable to cause any damage to me.

If they pop 2 tanks all game, they have done their job. and they don't have to do it by themselves. I do have the kabalite blasters now (thank you) and the flyers.

Lol this is Dark Eldar list building is so much harder than Tau... worrying about anti-mech and anti infantry is kinda foreign to me since using tau for so long.

Could you link me you're usual dark eldar army? or pm me if it's easier

Thor665 wrote:

As regards your new list;

I don't get the purpose of the Mantle at all.

The mantle is there for a cover save... its pretty simple, I'm coming down where I want, that could be behind cover as my d-scythes ignore cover, so say on the other side of the wall... which will usually net me 2+ cover save... or I could turbo-boost the bikes after the d-scythes have shot if there is no cover available for a 2+ cover... forcing them to target the bikes first... and a 3+ cover is still nice.

That's the plan anyway

Thor665 wrote:

I consider the VR Bomber a pretty terrible vehicle.

Oh yeah I remember you saying in your podcast now... that's a shame, its a beautiful model.

Thor665 wrote:

I agree that Blasters are not optimal on Reavers.

Right, so stay away from guns on Reaver's... cheers

Again, thank you for your help again, it really is appreciated[/quote]
[/quote]

zhambah wrote:

Ah yeah, skimmer rules... See I'm learning Thank you for that.

No worries - it's actually the fast vehicle rules though.

zhambah wrote:

My reasoning wasn't that the blaster couldnt be used against infantry, only that the unit would waste shots because I need more anti-tank and having a blaster in there makes that unit an anti tank unit. and I would be wasting some of my anti-infantry.

It actually makes the unit functional against both targets quite effectively - not weakening your anti-infantry at all as if you need anti-infantry you'll use it that way, and if you need anti-mech you can use it that way.

zhambah wrote:

Anti-mech;
2 units of scourges, 1 Razorwing, 1 crimson hunter

Anti-infantry;
2 Venom's, 3 squads 3 of reaver's.

Fufill both roles;
Wraithguard unit, 2 units of Kabalite warriors

I would note that the Razorwing (and Reavers for that matter) can also do both - especially if you want to claim the Wraithguard do (and I don't think they really do, myself).

zhambah wrote:

Also if i added a ravager instead of a unit of scourges, its my only tank... like real tank. So any of there high str weaponry is going to do exactly what you was planning on doing to them and targeting my tank to make me snapshot, and because of the armour value on our tanks if they can ignore the cover i'll be forced to jink just for them looking at me.

They don't need high strength weaponry to threaten a Ravager - they'd be better off shooting that stuff at the Wraithguard or something.

zhambah wrote:

out of curiosity how many full mech lists do you see?

Define 'full mech' I suppose?
I would say at any given tournament I expect to face multiple armies with multiple vehicles.
I certainly see lists with everything on transports or being a vehicle more often than I see lists with nothing being a vehicle. I would also tend to wager that most armies can build mech better than they can build footslog, and also note that most of the top tournament armies feature heavy vehicle use (Serpent Spam and Knights being the obvious ones) So I always build with that as a concept - I can dance around and outmaneuver a footslog list a lot better than I can try to use poison to help batter down a Serpentspam list

zhambah wrote:

Could you link me you're usual dark eldar army? or pm me if it's easier

I'm pretty lazy about that - the core point is my usual DE list right now is 100% meched up. You can find some of my lists with a bit of searching if you want, though I will admit that I'm not sure when the last time I posted a 1500 was.

zhambah wrote:

The mantle is there for a cover save... its pretty simple, I'm coming down where I want, that could be behind cover as my d-scythes ignore cover, so say on the other side of the wall... which will usually net me 2+ cover save... or I could turbo-boost the bikes after the d-scythes have shot if there is no cover available for a 2+ cover... forcing them to target the bikes first... and a 3+ cover is still nice.

That's the plan anyway

Okay, I get it now - please note that the Mantle removes the IC rule from the Spirtseer, preventing him from joining the Wraithguard and thus preventing him from granting them a cover save.

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

Ah yeah, skimmer rules... See I'm learning Thank you for that.

No worries - it's actually the fast vehicle rules though.

Aye, but I got to it by looking at the skimmer rules, then heavy vehicles, then fast

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

My reasoning wasn't that the blaster couldnt be used against infantry, only that the unit would waste shots because I need more anti-tank and having a blaster in there makes that unit an anti tank unit. and I would be wasting some of my anti-infantry.

It actually makes the unit functional against both targets quite effectively - not weakening your anti-infantry at all as if you need anti-infantry you'll use it that way, and if you need anti-mech you can use it that way.

Indeed, but if I'm using it to take out mechs, I'm not using it to take out infantry. and where people think I've got a lot of anti infantry, its nothing compared to what i'm used too lol

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

Anti-mech;
2 units of scourges, 1 Razorwing, 1 crimson hunter

Anti-infantry;
2 Venom's, 3 squads 3 of reaver's.

Fufill both roles;
Wraithguard unit, 2 units of Kabalite warriors

I would note that the Razorwing (and Reavers for that matter) can also do both - especially if you want to claim the Wraithguard do (and I don't think they really do, myself).

if thats the case, then i only have the 2 venoms for anti infantry... surely i need some more dedicated anti infantry? not anti mech?

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

Also if i added a ravager instead of a unit of scourges, its my only tank... like real tank. So any of there high str weaponry is going to do exactly what you was planning on doing to them and targeting my tank to make me snapshot, and because of the armour value on our tanks if they can ignore the cover i'll be forced to jink just for them looking at me.

They don't need high strength weaponry to threaten a Ravager - they'd be better off shooting that stuff at the Wraithguard or something.

str 3 is needed to threaten wraithguard.... str 5 is needed for ravager... it would be the most difficult thing to take off the table from my side wouldn't you say?

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

out of curiosity how many full mech lists do you see?

Define 'full mech' I suppose?

I would define it as only being able to see mech at the beginning of the game. i.e. only tanks and dedicated transports visable

Thor665 wrote:

I would say at any given tournament I expect to face multiple armies with multiple vehicles.
I certainly see lists with everything on transports or being a vehicle more often than I see lists with nothing being a vehicle. I would also tend to wager that most armies can build mech better than they can build footslog, and also note that most of the top tournament armies feature heavy vehicle use (Serpent Spam and Knights being the obvious ones) So I always build with that as a concept - I can dance around and outmaneuver a footslog list a lot better than I can try to use poison to help batter down a Serpentspam list  

Ah, that's the difference, no-one runs serpent spam here, plenty of knight lists though. on the other hand we have daemon spam, flyrant spam, infantry blobs of guardsmen. infact besides the knight lists, there's only 2 people that i know that have a vehicle for everything. don't get me wrong, people will bring vehicles, but our boards tend to be terrain heavy so people make more use out of the buildings.

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

Could you link me you're usual dark eldar army? or pm me if it's easier

I'm pretty lazy about that - the core point is my usual DE list right now is 100% meched up. You can find some of my lists with a bit of searching if you want, though I will admit that I'm not sure when the last time I posted a 1500 was.

No worries i'll slog through the threads to find a couple

When you're doing your tactica (still waiting for that btw) could you explain why its necessary for dark eldar to "mech up" as i'm really not seeing the positives... venom spam seems fine to me from a perspective of your just using them as a cheap squad.

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

The mantle is there for a cover save... its pretty simple, I'm coming down where I want, that could be behind cover as my d-scythes ignore cover, so say on the other side of the wall... which will usually net me 2+ cover save... or I could turbo-boost the bikes after the d-scythes have shot if there is no cover available for a 2+ cover... forcing them to target the bikes first... and a 3+ cover is still nice.

That's the plan anyway

Okay, I get it now - please note that the Mantle removes the IC rule from the Spirtseer, preventing him from joining the Wraithguard and thus preventing him from granting them a cover save.

I had to wait a day to write this reply as I was quite furious when i read that... then read the eldar codex... it didn't even occur to me that they would lose IC as our local eldar player has been using it since the release and i think everybody has just taken him at his word... oh hes in for a rude awakening next time i see him.

right... so that's that plan ballsed up... well it will teach me to read codex's instead of just assuming other players were playing legit. The alternative is squeezing in a farseer and hoping to get fortune... and give the archon shadow field... but that's ALOT of points to invest

another alternative is swapping it for AoM and doing the shriek tactic... it just looks a little lackluster on paper though

thor, i had a quick flick through the army lists... and it appears you've never posted one. not one that i can find anyway hehe

zhambah wrote:

Indeed, but if I'm using it to take out mechs, I'm not using it to take out infantry. and where people think I've got a lot of anti infantry, its nothing compared to what i'm used too lol

That is irrelevant - if you need it for mech then it wouldn't help you to not have the Blaster, and if you need it for infantry then the Blaster prevents nothing, and if you need it for both then at least you can choose which is most needed.

zhambah wrote:

if thats the case, then i only have the 2 venoms for anti infantry... surely i need some more dedicated anti infantry? not anti mech?

I would say that depends on a lot of things - but me calling the Reavers, for example, 'both' hardly means the Reavers are good anti-mech, and certainly are not good anti-mech on Turn 1 (the turn anti-mech actually tends to matter the most) the same for all your anti-mech in reserves as well as the Blasters.

How much anti-mech do you have that can fire at, say, a transport vehcile before it gets a chance to move up 12" and provide board control for its owner? How much anti mech do you have that can shoot at my Basilisks if I deploy them along the back of my deployment zone?

Those aspects matter just as much as whether or not a unit is even capable of hurting something.

zhambah wrote:

str 3 is needed to threaten wraithguard.... str 5 is needed for ravager... it would be the most difficult thing to take off the table from my side wouldn't you say?

No, I would not.

I can kill a Ravager with a single round of shooting from a large number of units - the same cannot be said for the Wraithguard. If I have, say, 3 autocannons at BS 3 I can generate on average 1.5 hull points of damage to a Ravager, either of which could destroy it and potentially assure it jinking which would render its shooting impotent regardless. I would manage .6 wounds or so to Wraithguard and potentially do nothing at all to them.

An armor value of 11 is not exactly a brick wall screaming desperately for your opponent to use every heavy weapon they have against it.

zhambah wrote:

No worries i'll slog through the threads to find a couple

To answer your above question about this - I don't think I have every submitted a list for review. I have shown some in batreps and in tactical discussions.

zhambah wrote:

When you're doing your tactica (still waiting for that btw) could you explain why its necessary for dark eldar to "mech up" as i'm really not seeing the positives... venom spam seems fine to me from a perspective of your just using them as a cheap squad.

Venom spam is also meching up though, yeah? Or do you just mean buying them as FA slots, which doesn't really make it Venom spam.

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

Indeed, but if I'm using it to take out mechs, I'm not using it to take out infantry. and where people think I've got a lot of anti infantry, its nothing compared to what i'm used too lol

That is irrelevant - if you need it for mech then it wouldn't help you to not have the Blaster, and if you need it for infantry then the Blaster prevents nothing, and if you need it for both then at least you can choose which is most needed.

It's not irrelevant though is it... 2 targets, 1 mech 1 infantry, both an equal threat... the tank needs to die or its going to unleash hell... but theres more chance of killing the infantry unit... what do you do... take the risk and try and pop the tank... or play safe and kill the infantry unit and deal with the consequences of hell unleashed lol?

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

if thats the case, then i only have the 2 venoms for anti infantry... surely i need some more dedicated anti infantry? not anti mech?

I would say that depends on a lot of things - but me calling the Reavers, for example, 'both' hardly means the Reavers are good anti-mech, and certainly are not good anti-mech on Turn 1 (the turn anti-mech actually tends to matter the most) the same for all your anti-mech in reserves as well as the Blasters.

How much anti-mech do you have that can fire at, say, a transport vehcile before it gets a chance to move up 12" and provide board control for its owner? How much anti mech do you have that can shoot at my Basilisks if I deploy them along the back of my deployment zone?

Those aspects matter just as much as whether or not a unit is even capable of hurting something.

Very true positioning is probably one of, if not the most, important part of this game, but that can't be decided on forums... all we can do is decide if a unit is capable of hurting something and plan accordingly.

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

str 3 is needed to threaten wraithguard.... str 5 is needed for ravager... it would be the most difficult thing to take off the table from my side wouldn't you say?

No, I would not.

I can kill a Ravager with a single round of shooting from a large number of units - the same cannot be said for the Wraithguard. If I have, say, 3 autocannons at BS 3 I can generate on average 1.5 hull points of damage to a Ravager, either of which could destroy it and potentially assure it jinking which would render its shooting impotent regardless. I would manage .6 wounds or so to Wraithguard and potentially do nothing at all to them.

An armor value of 11 is not exactly a brick wall screaming desperately for your opponent to use every heavy weapon they have against it.

Not even touching on the fact the wraithguard wont be on the field turn 1... lets take a more common weapon, a bolter... which can wound wraithguard, where as it can't touch a ravager. they are both in contention for tough unit... but either way, things will be pointing in the direction of the ravager.

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

No worries i'll slog through the threads to find a couple

To answer your above question about this - I don't think I have every submitted a list for review. I have shown some in batreps and in tactical discussions.

lol, right i'll have a look through some of your batreps

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

When you're doing your tactica (still waiting for that btw) could you explain why its necessary for dark eldar to "mech up" as i'm really not seeing the positives... venom spam seems fine to me from a perspective of your just using them as a cheap squad.

Venom spam is also meching up though, yeah? Or do you just mean buying them as FA slots, which doesn't really make it Venom spam.

I meant i see the benefits of meching up for venom spam, because it grants cheap access to splinter cannons. I dont see the benefits of meching up in general for dark eldar... the vehicles arent strong enough to warrant it in my opinion... but i've been wrong before on these things lol

zhambah wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

zhambah wrote:

Indeed, but if I'm using it to take out mechs, I'm not using it to take out infantry. and where people think I've got a lot of anti infantry, its nothing compared to what i'm used too lol

That is irrelevant - if you need it for mech then it wouldn't help you to not have the Blaster, and if you need it for infantry then the Blaster prevents nothing, and if you need it for both then at least you can choose which is most needed.

It's not irrelevant though is it... 2 targets, 1 mech 1 infantry, both an equal threat... the tank needs to die or its going to unleash hell... but theres more chance of killing the infantry unit... what do you do... take the risk and try and pop the tank... or play safe and kill the infantry unit and deal with the consequences of hell unleashed lol?

Don't you think it's better to have the option, than not have a choise at all? If you decide the infantry unit is the bigger threat, then unleash on them with little to no reduced firepower (statistically, anyway). But IF you decide the mech needs to go... then what? With the Blaster, you have a chance, but you've robbed yourself of the option if you go with just poison.
For the life of me, I fail to see why having two possible options on the battlefield is worse than having only one, when that one option is not reduced in efficiency either way.

Personal preferences pertaining to playstyle... and points

That's my quirk with it... I like to compartmentalize my army. each unit has a specific task to do, giving units multiple functions isn't how i typically write lists... squad A is for job A, squad B is for job b... that sort of thing

I can see the benefits of having a multifunction unit, hence why the current list has the blasers. its just not how i typically put a list together.

also there's the problem of the kabalites when shooting at a mech unit the splinter rifles become useless, which means my army is lacking 8-16 shots. and comparing this list to my usual armies, i'd say i need all the shooting i can get