Is the Doom of Mymeria updated yet?

colinsherlow wrote:

I can't find the corsair reaver band on there for some reason.

I was looking for the Void Dreamer.

The reaver band is definitively there, I remember not seeing it the first time either then doing a browser menu search for reaver - it's in the post name.

The void dreamer is not there that I saw.  I guess maybe because it's the forgeworld sample page?  The aethermancy stuff is though.

So far it's looking like the only units really worth taking jet packs on are balestrike bands and surprisingly maybe the rangers with sniper rifles.  Everything else will pretty much be better suited to be on a jetbike, in a venom or falchon MSUs or (again surprisingly) on foot.

In venoms bands would play like kabalites, except with an extra (better) special weapon, grenades (defensive and plasma), an auto-include sergeant (+5 points for LD if nothing else) and superior fire power in most circumstances.  All for 2 extra points per model.  You could simply throw 5 kabalites in a venom with an extra blaster and call it a reaver band.

Blobdar is looking like a real possibility - 20 man blobs in 3+ armor with 8 melta guns (or blasters) and haywire grenades could make a mess of just about anything.  Attach an aethermancy heavy void dreamer or a Multiphase key generator character and you can throw them around the table pretty effectively without any transport.

Combine a couple blobs with the dissonance breachers special rule and you pretty much get 40 free melta bombs. As I'm reading it, the bombs are free and available to infantry and jetbikes but not jet-pack infantry as they are not listed like in the rest of the rules.

I'm not much impressed with any of the elite choices.  Although 75 points for a wasp walker with deep strike, the jetpack move and kinetic shroud seems like the best.  I guess I was hoping for more out of the malevolent bands, but they'll either be fielded in small groups like wracks in venoms or in larger groups with jet-packs that won't do too much for them.  The special rules are amazing but still we're talking about 20 points a piece before melta bombs.  The first power maul swing to connect with one of these guys will more than make it's points back.

The fast attack unit is of course over crowded with good options, more so now that the phoenix bomber is in there.  The heavy support seems lackluster unless you want to pour tons of points into it, otherwise it's mostly just re-purposed craftworld stuff (including fw).  Considering each coterie needs a heavy support I was expecting a bit more but balestrike bands with jet-packs will do I guess.

stilgar27 wrote:

So far it's looking like the only units really worth taking jet packs on are balestrike bands and surprisingly maybe the rangers with sniper rifles.  Everything else will pretty much be better suited to be on a jetbike, in a venom or falchon MSUs or (again surprisingly) on foot.

Doesn't help that 5pts per model for Jetpacks is nifty for HQ choices, but much less so for units.

stilgar27 wrote:

In venoms bands would play like kabalites, except with an extra (better) special weapon, grenades (defensive and plasma), an auto-include sergeant (+5 points for LD if nothing else) and superior fire power in most circumstances.  All for 2 extra points per model.  You could simply throw 5 kabalites in a venom with an extra blaster and call it a reaver band.

Corsair Venoms look worse though - and they're the main reason you take Kabalites. With Kinetic Shroud and 2 splinter cannons, they're 10pts more expensive for basically no gain.

Still, if I'm using DE allies, I might take some FA DE venoms and put Corsairs in them at the start of the game.

stilgar27 wrote:

I'm not much impressed with any of the elite choices.  Although 75 points for a wasp walker with deep strike, the jetpack move and kinetic shroud seems like the best.  I guess I was hoping for more out of the malevolent bands, but they'll either be fielded in small groups like wracks in venoms or in larger groups with jet-packs that won't do too much for them.  The special rules are amazing but still we're talking about 20 points a piece before melta bombs.  The first power maul swing to connect with one of these guys will more than make it's points back.

The fast attack unit is of course over crowded with good options, but the heavy supporting units needs some character.  It's mostly just re-purposed craftworld stuff (including fw) except for the balestrike bands.

With regard to Balestrike Bands, what are you thinking in terms of weapons?


Also, I'm planning to be using a Corsair Prince with Survivor of the Darkness (IWND and FNP), Jet Pack, Void Sabre and Shadowfield. Maybe a Psychic level. This guy, if you're interested:

Spoiler:

Anyway, which unit do you think I should put him with? As you said earlier, most units don't seem to gain any benefit from Jetpacks (including him, if I'm honest - but I've already given him wings), and the ones that do are based around long-range weapons.

So, any suggestions for a suitable Jet pack escort?

EDIT: Oh, one other thing - is it me or are Dissonance weapons a bit... crap? They're single-shot Heavy Bolters that get slightly better if you roll a 6 to-hit.

I almost prefer dark Eldar venoms, but getting a scatter laser and Splinter cannon on a venom is kind of awesome. No inv unless you pay more points. Which is ok

colinsherlow wrote:

I almost prefer dark Eldar venoms, but getting a scatter laser and Splinter cannon on a venom is kind of awesome. No inv unless you pay more points. Which is ok

Wouldn't it be better to have two Splinter cannons?

The Shredder wrote:

Corsair Venoms look worse though - and they're the main reason you take Kabalites. With Kinetic Shroud and 2 splinter cannons, they're 10pts more expensive for basically no gain.

Dark eldar venoms are probably better overall for the cost but less flexible.  Just at a glance, dark eldar venoms have 1 weapon options from a weapon with no strength value to another with no strength value.  The corsair venom has 6 weapons options/upgrades, most have strength values; half of them have bladestorm.

The vehicle upgrades are pretty situational in my opinion.  Scout/outflank is often better than deep strike on a vehicle this fast, and you could always use the points from the upgrades you don't take to make the passengers more durable (3+ armor for 10 points or feel no pain 5+ for 10 in this case).  Besides - jink is free anyway.

If I were taking the shroud it'd be on a flat out machine with basic weapons.  I'd get the passengers where they needed to be flat out, then speed off to the next objective with my 4++ re-rollable.

The Shredder wrote:

With regard to Balestrike Bands, what are you thinking in terms of weapons?

Shuriken cannons.  Pretty much everything else can be had cheaper elsewhere, and the shuriken cannons weakness (it's range) is nullified by deep strike afforded by jetpacks.

Plus they'll be easy to convert  

The Shredder wrote:

Anyway, which unit do you think I should put him with? As you said earlier, most units don't seem to gain any benefit from Jetpacks (including him, if I'm honest - but I've already given him wings), and the ones that do are based around long-range weapons.

So, any suggestions for a suitable Jet pack escort?

Well when I said that jet-packs don't benefit malevolent bands, that's not entirely true.  It gets them - 4+ armor, deep strike, and 2d6 extra movement if they aren't charging.  They'd fit your theme better and would wreck face if you can get them in to melee.  They're never scoring though.

The only other option really is the Voidstrike bands, which seem to cost the same as malevolents and gain WS5 2 Attacks instead of all those nasty rules.  Their big thing may be that they're all characters... Talk about challenge sponges.  They can also take a special and all have access to the normal sergeant stuff (basically venom blades and power weapons).

The Shredder wrote:

EDIT: Oh, one other thing - is it me or are Dissonance weapons a bit... crap? They're single-shot Heavy Bolters that get slightly better if you roll a 6 to-hit.

It's not you, they want from auto-include on every balestrike band to "meh".

@Shredder that guy isn't that impressive, at least not for a princ but maybe once you've fully painted him

CptMetal wrote:

@Shredder that guy isn't that impressive, at least not for a princ but maybe once you've fully painted him

Well, that's several hours of modelling and painting down the toilet.

The Shredder wrote:

CptMetal wrote:

@Shredder that guy isn't that impressive, at least not for a princ but maybe once you've fully painted him

Well, that's several hours of modelling and painting down the toilet.

No way - I like him

I have to admit I'd probably see him more as a chaos/demon renegade though.  Those malefic demonology rules are seriously, painfully risky though.  Reaper of the outer dark (rampage) might work too with the theme.

And as for the splinter cannon/shuriken/scatter laser debate.  GW and FW at least have made their opinion clear in the pricing.

Not to get too bogged down in mathhammer but even ignoring vehicles : A shuriken cannon will kill 1 marine rolling average,  A scatter laser will kill .74, A Splinter cannon will kill 0.667.  Shurikens' advantage grows against 2+ armor.

Sure you sacrifice range, but this is a fast vehicle and the optimal range for the lasblaster is 24" anyway.

stilgar27 wrote:

No way - I like him

Thanks.

stilgar27 wrote:

I have to admit I'd probably see him more as a chaos/demon renegade though.

Hmm, I was actually thinking of him as an augmented Mandrake (similar to Kheradruakh, but with wings instead of a second pair of arms). Hence I was trying for a shadow/darkness theme (Survivor of the Endless Darkness, Voidblade, Shadowfield). Also, with the Voidblade his statline is almost identical to Kheradruakh's, amusingly. All I really need is something to represent Baneblast.  

That said, I seem to recall Mandrakes being demons/demonic, so you're probably right either way.    

stilgar27 wrote:

Those malefic demonology rules are seriously, painfully risky though.

Just a tad.

I'll probably still have to try them sometime... though probably not with my warlord.

I forgot this earlier but it seems the rumor that each coterie needed 1 HQ 1 Troop and 1 Heavy support was apparently false. They heavy support is not necessary.

For the kinetic shroud inv save I am only seeing the 4++ with reroll when the deep striking or the wasp using it's weird jump. Otherwise it's "just" a 4++ when flat out. Or 5++ when moving slower

Yep, you're right. So much for my unstoppable hornets of doom strategy.

Might have to make it unstoppable wasps of doom.

Hornets are still kind of super amazing. Plus that Hornet formation looks pretty good

By the way, what are we thinking for our foot/jet pack troops in terms of weapons?

I was wondering about having a couple of Jet Pack squads and giving them Shuriken Catapults and Blasters. 18" might be enough for some JSJ fun.

Otherwise I'm thinking Brace of Pistols and Fusion Guns.

Still no idea what I want to do with venoms. Or, for that matter, if I want to have some DE allies.

The Shredder wrote:

By the way, what are we thinking for our foot/jet pack troops in terms of weapons?

I was wondering about having a couple of Jet Pack squads and giving them Shuriken Catapults and Blasters. 18" might be enough for some JSJ fun.

Otherwise I'm thinking Brace of Pistols and Fusion Guns.

Still no idea what I want to do with venoms. Or, for that matter, if I want to have some DE allies.

I too have thought that blasters might be useful at a cheaper price and with more mobility.  Unless you're skirting rapid fire range with lasblasters I'm not really sure they'll beat out melta guns though.

Unless I'm reading it wrong (and I've done that a bit recently) the reckless abandon rule basically gives a 6" move or 6+d6" if you have a bike or jet-pack, if there is an enemy within 12" - after shooting is resolved.  Essentially this means if you can close 6" closer into melta gun/shuriken range, then you can still jump back to the same distance or further.

It's not yet clear that this stacks with the normal jet-pack 2d6 assault move - but there is nothing saying it doesn't, which is why I keep saying these guys are the fastest army in 40k.  It does say they can't move closer to the target of their attack, but says nothing about it being a run move or preventing charging that turn.  In other words you should be able to move close to an enemy, fire on them and then use this move to get in a better position to charge.  Although the design is obviously for JSJ tactics.

As for shuriken catapults, I understand there will be lots of people using them because they're available to model, but other than that there is literally no reason to.  Catapults are assault 2 bladestorm, brace of pistols are 2 blade storm pistols (or 2 splinter ones).  Using the gunslinger rule, the pistols have exactly the same effect at 12", but also give you the splinter option as well as counting as 2 CCWs.

stilgar27 wrote:

I too have thought that blasters might be useful at a cheaper price and with more mobility.  Unless you're skirting rapid fire range with lasblasters I'm not really sure they'll beat out melta guns though.

Unless I'm reading it wrong (and I've done that a bit recently) the reckless abandon rule basically gives a 6" move or 6+d6" if you have a bike or jet-pack, if there is an enemy within 12" - after shooting is resolved.  Essentially this means if you can close 6" closer to melta gun range you can still jump back to the same distance or further.

The thing is though, I'm dubious of our ability to close to such a short distance with only a 6" move. It seems we have a lot of tools to get us out of harm's way after shooting, but none to actually get us into close range. Hence I was thinking that 18" would give you more options, even if you only end up using your Jet pack's JSJ, rather than Reckless Abandon.

stilgar27 wrote:

It's not yet clear that this stacks with the normal jet-pack 2d6 assault move - but there is nothing saying it doesn't, which is why I keep saying these guys are the fastest army in 40k.  

Yeah, it looks like it stacks with Jet Pack moves, which is awsome.

stilgar27 wrote:

It does say they can't move closer to the target of their attack, but says nothing about it being a run move or preventing charging that turn.  In other words you should be able to move close to an enemy, fire on them and then use this move to get in a better position to charge.  

That's an interesting idea (and a good catch about it not being a run move), but how would you get into a better position when you can't use it move closer to your target?

stilgar27 wrote:

As for shuriken catapults, I understand there will be lots of people using them because they're available to model, but other than that there is literally no reason to.  Catapults are assault 2 bladestorm, brace of pistols are 2 blade storm pistols (or 2 splinter ones).  Using the gunslinger rule, the pistols have exactly the same effect at 12", but also give you the splinter option as well as counting as 2 CCWs.

But, as above, it was about the extra 6" of range.

I guess I'm just doubtful of our ability to get within 12" of a suitable target, with just a 6" move. I imagine Jetbikes would be fine, as they can move 12"... but they only have long-range weapons anyway.

On this subject, I think I might try an army consisting entirely of jetbikes and jet pack infantry. I don't know if it would work as well as one using venoms and such, but it would make a nice change from vehicle-heavy DE.

Oh, I also wanted to respond to some stuff you said yesterday (I'm sure you're thrilled   ):

stilgar27 wrote:

Dark eldar venoms are probably better overall for the cost but less flexible.  Just at a glance, dark eldar venoms have 1 weapon options from a weapon with no strength value to another with no strength value.  The corsair venom has 6 weapons options/upgrades, most have strength values; half of them have bladestorm.

True. I'm not really sure what weapons I'd want on Corsair Venoms. Probably not scatterlasers, as I might as well put those on jetbikes, but I'm not sure whether to pay the extra 10pts and have 2 Shuriken Cannons.

stilgar27 wrote:

The vehicle upgrades are pretty situational in my opinion.  Scout/outflank is often better than deep strike on a vehicle this fast, and you could always use the points from the upgrades you don't take to make the passengers more durable (3+ armor for 10 points or feel no pain 5+ for 10 in this case).  Besides - jink is free anyway.

How would you give them FNP 5+?

Regardless, good point about Jink.

stilgar27 wrote:

If I were taking the shroud it'd be on a flat out machine with basic weapons.  I'd get the passengers where they needed to be flat out, then speed off to the next objective with my 4++ re-rollable.

Bear in mind that you only get the reroll when deep-striking.

I was wondering about deep-striking a few venoms with Shrouds, containing passengers with 2 fusion guns apiece (using the 'roll 1 fewer d6 on scatter' Coterie trait). However, I think this might be a waste - I'd probably be disembarking the passengers anyway to get into melta range, and it feels like a waste just to protect an empty transport.

stilgar27 wrote:

Shuriken cannons.  Pretty much everything else can be had cheaper elsewhere, and the shuriken cannons weakness (it's range) is nullified by deep strike afforded by jetpacks.

Plus they'll be easy to convert  

Hmm, I was actually wondering about Dark Lances. 5 guys with a Felarch cost 25pts more than a Ravager. But, they have 2 extra Dark Lances and can jump 2d6" after shooting.

stilgar27 wrote:

Well when I said that jet-packs don't benefit malevolent bands, that's not entirely true.  It gets them - 4+ armor, deep strike, and 2d6 extra movement if they aren't charging.  They'd fit your theme better and would wreck face if you can get them in to melee.  They're never scoring though.

The only other option really is the Voidstrike bands, which seem to cost the same as malevolents and gain WS5 2 Attacks instead of all those nasty rules.  Their big thing may be that they're all characters... Talk about challenge sponges.  They can also take a special and all have access to the normal sergeant stuff (basically venom blades and power weapons).

This is actually a tough decision. I like the extra survivability of Malevolant Bands, but no special weapons makes me sad and 1 attack each (base) is pathetic.  


Oh, one other thing - I was just looking at the wording of Reckless Abandon and I'd like your opinion. Do you think "fires at a unit" could include psychic shooting attacks?

If so:

They would totally still get the JSJ move. They are making a jsj move with reckless. Also reckless is in the movement phase. Jsj is assault

colinsherlow wrote:

They would totally still get the JSJ move. They are making a jsj move with reckless.  Also reckless is in the movement phase. Jsj is assault

What about if they shoot a unit with a psychic shooting attack (or witchfire, or whatever they're called now)?

Would that qualify for Reckless Abandon?

The Shredder wrote:

The thing is though, I'm dubious of our ability to close to such a short distance with only a 6" move. It seems we have a lot of tools to get us out of harm's way after shooting, but none to actually get us into close range. Hence I was thinking that 18" would give you more options, even if you only end up using your Jet pack's JSJ, rather than Reckless Abandon.

I share this concern.  Deep striking small units like malevolent bands will benefit most from these moves.

The Shredder wrote:

That's an interesting idea (and a good catch about it not being a run move), but how would you get into a better position when you can't use it move closer to your target?

Once again we may have to wait for some clarification here:
At first glance I interpreted "can't be used to bring them any closer to the target of their attacks" to mean I could use this move to cover ground given up by gunning down some of the enemy.  If I'm 10" from a blob of guardsmen, and I cut a 4" hole in there formation - I could move 4" and still not be "closer".  Now that I look at it again I'm not so sure.  Opinions?

The more obvious strategy is simply to fire from a direction the target won't get a cover save, then move into a position where you'll get a cover save from overwatch (or sacrifice a man to focused fire).  That's assuming they don't have ignore cover though.

The Shredder wrote:

But, as above, it was about the extra 6" of range.

I'm not sure but I think you might be confusing shuriken catapults with avenger shuriken catapults.  Regular catapults are range 12" just like the pistols.  Avengers are 18" but only available to avengers and autarchs.

The Shredder wrote:

On this subject, I think I might try an army consisting entirely of jetbikes and jet pack infantry.

Probably the way to go.

The Shredder wrote:

I'm not really sure what weapons I'd want on Corsair Venoms. Probably not scatterlasers, as I might as well put those on jetbikes, but I'm not sure whether to pay the extra 10pts and have 2 Shuriken Cannons.

Actually the basic layout of the corsair venom isn't bad. The front twin linked weapon is going to get 6 chances to hit something albeit at strength 3, and the shuriken cannon has the same range and is pretty decent against most anything with a toughness value.

Splinter cannons are half the price on bikes as scatterlasers or shuriken cannons are.  I plan on using 2 squads of 5 of those and investing the 50 points into baron gear.

The Shredder wrote:

How would you give them FNP 5+?

The Shredder wrote:

Bear in mind that you only get the reroll when deep-striking.

That's just me not reading thoroughly enough and assuming rumors are accurate.  FNP only applies to characters, re-roll 4++ only applies to deep striking and pretty much wasps.

The Shredder wrote:

Hmm, I was actually wondering about Dark Lances. 5 guys with a Felarch cost 25pts more than a Ravager. But, they have 2 extra Dark Lances and can jump 2d6" after shooting.

My opinion is admittedly based on what I already have (6 vypers, 3 hornets).  5 points more than a balestrike with a dark lance, gets you a vyper jetbike with one (and a TL weapon).  Then again skimmers might actually be less mobile than these guys.

The Shredder wrote:

This is actually a tough decision. I like the extra survivability of Malevolant Bands, but no special weapons makes me sad and 1 attack each (base) is pathetic.  

Malevolents get 2 attacks when they charge, voidstrikes never get 2 wounds.  Also malevolents can take melta bombs.

The Shredder wrote:

Oh, one other thing - I was just looking at the wording of Reckless Abandon and I'd like your opinion. Do you think "fires at a unit" could include psychic shooting attacks?

As I understand it psychic shooting attacks basically have the split fire rule, as they can be aimed at whatever and don't effect which unit you must charge.  It could definietly be argued but I personally would not count them for triggering reckless abandon.

If you want to use squads to slingshot you in to melee with other squads take the Reaper of the outer dark Prince ability and give your prince escort the rage freebie.  When firing on the unit you don't want to charge make sure you stay more than 8" away, then use your reckless abandon rule to bounce you towards the target you actually want to hit.  The outer dark rage upgrade dictates that you must charge any unit within 8" even if you fired at something else.

stilgar27 wrote:

Once again we may have to wait for some clarification here:
At first glance I interpreted "can't be used to bring them any closer to the target of their attacks" to mean I could use this move to cover ground given up by gunning down some of the enemy.  If I'm 10" from a blob of guardsmen, and I cut a 4" hole in there formation - I could move 4" and still not be "closer".  Now that I look at it again I'm not so sure.  Opinions?

I'd interpret it as 'can't move in any direction that could bring you closer to your target'. i.e. the distance between you and your target can never decrease at any point during your move.

stilgar27 wrote:

I'm not sure but I think you might be confusing shuriken catapults with avenger shuriken catapults.  Regular catapults are range 12" just like the pistols.  Avengers are 18" but only available to avengers and autarchs.

Ah, I was indeed mixing the two up. In that case, you're absolutely right - taking the catapults is pointless. Likewise, blasters seem equally pointless, as the rest of the squad can't make use of the additional range. Oh well, more fusion guns for me.

stilgar27 wrote:

Actually the basic layout of the corsair venom isn't bad. The front twin linked weapon is going to get 6 chances to hit something albeit at strength 3, and the shuriken cannon has the same range and is pretty decent against most anything with a toughness value.

Splinter cannons are half the price on bikes as scatterlasers or shuriken cannons are.  I plan on using 2 squads of 5 of those and investing the 50 points into baron gear.

Hmm, I really wouldn't want to use the lasblasters. S3 is just too pitiful.

With regard to bikes, they also get cheaper Shuriken Cannons (also half the price).

stilgar27 wrote:

My opinion is admittedly based on what I already have (6 vypers, 3 hornets).  5 points more than a balestrike with a dark lance, gets you a vyper jetbike with one (and a TL weapon).  Then again skimmers might actually be less mobile than these guys.

Well, my opinion might be equally biased as I have 15 Scourges and no vipers or hornets.

stilgar27 wrote:

Malevolents get 2 attacks when they charge, voidstrikes never get 2 wounds.  Also malevolents can take melta bombs.

Good point. Malevolents it is.

Now all I need is something suitable to represent them.

stilgar27 wrote:

As I understand it psychic shooting attacks basically have the split fire rule, as they can be aimed at whatever and don't effect which unit you must charge.  It could definietly be argued but I personally would not count them for triggering reckless abandon.

From the rulebook: "Witchfire powers are shooting attacks."

Isn't that all you need? I mean, even if they were treated as having Split Fire, surely you still fired at a unit?

The move is in the shoot phase. You can shoot enemy units in the psych phase, but that is not the shooting phase. So no reckless with psych. Sorry for the poor English. Had a long tournament/beer day. Time for bed

colinsherlow wrote:

The move is in the shoot phase.

This is incorrect - Reckless Abandon does not specify that it can only be performed in the shooting phase.

The relevant wording is:

"A unit which includes only models with this special rule that fires at an enemy unit within 12" of itself may make an immediate move of 6" after all effects of the shooting attack have been resolved."

Under Witchfire powers:

"Witchfire powers are shooting attacks."

So presumably you could do that twice per turn if you include a Psyker with a Witchfire power?

Count Adhemar wrote:

So presumably you could do that twice per turn if you include a Psyker with a Witchfire power?

It looks like it.

Or, you could cast a witchfire at one target, use the movement to get closer to a different target, and then assault that second target.