Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex

DevilDoll wrote:

Koldan wrote:

JRG wrote:

I am pretty sure she will be our supreme commander.

Dont want to sound disrespectful but i can easily imagine how this could happen:

GW guy 1: Copy pasting the stratagems for the new codex: "Agents of VECT"... Oh crap
GW guy 2: what..?
GW guy 1: You remember when we said that every faction would be getting a supreme commander?
GW guy 2: yeah...?
GW guy 1: Well arent these guys supposed to have some leader.. Abigail Vect or something..?
GW guy 2: Yes and..?
GW guy 1: Well he doesnt have a model... does he?
GW guy 2: Dunno... didnt we release him in blood of the phoenix?
GW guy 1: No that was that lost eldar phoenix lord
GW guy 2: God damn! well its too late now, just make that PC chick their commander and move on
GW guy 1: ok but wouldnt that be weird, i mean she/he is not supposed to be a commander she/he is just out to duel crap and draw blood in the lore, she/he is not a leader and besides how would it look if she/he fills the same role as Guiliman, Mortarion and the Silent King?
GW guy 2: oh FFS just give it +1 attack and make it fight twice and hope noone will notice... In fact just throw in some previews of Sisters as well to draw the attention away from it
GW guy 1: kk will do...

Yes that was exactly my thinking. And as people want more positivity:

That is so awesome. I mean look at T'au they got their supreme commander sneakily added with a faq and we get a codex with it. Isn't that great? GW should clearly balance this favouritism out by doubling her points and giving Marines a second Supreme Commander.

Jokes aside it could be worse. Drazhar could be it, the guy that does not talk and ignores most people. If you are really important he may nod his head in your general direction at best.
Or even worse our supreme commander has the Ynnari faction keyword and we share them with the other aeldari factions.

Yes, I also fell foul of this. You'd think a Drukhari player would have those embarked rules memorised. Touchè to those holding the line on that.

A real shame though as without the benefit that the likes of SM have where all there characters come with their own F1 pit team preping their characters jump packs or bikes etc. It makes utilitising such abilities even more difficult.

'Abilities have no effect on units while they are embarked' is not the same as 'you cannot choose a command phase ability while a unit is embarked'. It just means that the ability has no effect *while* the unit is embarked.

"Every faction will have a supreme commander, and it is who you would think it would be"

that is what we were told, correct? Almost verbatim?

No one ever thought Lelith was the supreme commander of the Dark Eldar... there is only one who fits that bill.

Guess that means VECT is confirmed, right?

They never gave a time frame unfortunately.

krayd wrote:

'Abilities have no effect on units while they are embarked' is not the same as 'you cannot choose a command phase ability while a unit is embarked'. It just means that the ability has no effect *while* the unit is embarked.

But the first sentence, "Units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked," seems like it should stop her from being able to do it.

This has to be something they FAQ. Clearly its too ambiguous. Is she doing it? Or are we just choosing it as some sort of pseudo-faction ability and it applies once she disembarks? That is the key question. And from what we have seen, its not clear (having reread the embark rules, I am closer to saying it doesnt work?), and DOES matter.

Just like D&D. RAW or RAI, and until the creators clarify, sometimes you cant tell which is which.

albions-angel wrote:

sekac wrote:

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

Lelith is not just going to be good at killing chaff. I think people saying that are being a little narrow minded. She could be used for example to charge infantry on an objective who are supported by a buffing character. She kills the unit and then kills the character.

She's not that good at killing chaff though. Each volley of attacks is good for about 4 wounds. So she declares a charge against a squad of 4 AND the character (because she can't direct attacks against a model she didn't charge), and kills them, she gets to consolidate into the character, who has a chance to kill her before she swings. Then she attacks and almost certainly doesn't kill the character.

I wouldn't even charge her into a squad of 10 orks. That's more than she can handle.

I understand we don't have all the answers yet. But as of now, she is nowhere near as good at killing even light troops as people are making her out to be.

If she rolls hot, she could take out a squad of guardsmen in one turn. If she rolls average, she cannot.

There's nothing impressive about her.

Interesting, thats not how I would have played those command phase abilities. I dont see anything wrong with your way, just that its not what I would have done.

I would have charged a bigger squad, or a tougher squad, with the fight twice ability selected. If I was still engaged next round, and if there was another, juicier target nearby (another unit like the one I am fighting, but less dead, or an HQ) then I would take the OTHER option, fall back, and engage the new target.

So lets say I charged a unit of 10+ models, I fight twice, either wiping them out, or leaving only a handful left. Its a waste to sit in combat and not use most of Leliths (essentially) 14 attacks to kill 2 models, so I fall back, and charge the OTHER unit, trusting to someone else to take out those last 2.

I get what your saying but I think you’ve missed the point in why I used that example. I’m using an example that could win a game by taking out obsec troops and how the ability may prove more than just useful for taking out chaff but in clearing the enemy off an objective.

You have simply tried to imagine how to increase her damage output. Which is fine...but she can be useful in a tactical way as well as simply killing stuff.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

albions-angel wrote:

sekac wrote:

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

Lelith is not just going to be good at killing chaff. I think people saying that are being a little narrow minded. She could be used for example to charge infantry on an objective who are supported by a buffing character. She kills the unit and then kills the character.

She's not that good at killing chaff though. Each volley of attacks is good for about 4 wounds. So she declares a charge against a squad of 4 AND the character (because she can't direct attacks against a model she didn't charge), and kills them, she gets to consolidate into the character, who has a chance to kill her before she swings. Then she attacks and almost certainly doesn't kill the character.

I wouldn't even charge her into a squad of 10 orks. That's more than she can handle.

I understand we don't have all the answers yet. But as of now, she is nowhere near as good at killing even light troops as people are making her out to be.

If she rolls hot, she could take out a squad of guardsmen in one turn. If she rolls average, she cannot.

There's nothing impressive about her.

Interesting, thats not how I would have played those command phase abilities. I dont see anything wrong with your way, just that its not what I would have done.

I would have charged a bigger squad, or a tougher squad, with the fight twice ability selected. If I was still engaged next round, and if there was another, juicier target nearby (another unit like the one I am fighting, but less dead, or an HQ) then I would take the OTHER option, fall back, and engage the new target.

So lets say I charged a unit of 10+ models, I fight twice, either wiping them out, or leaving only a handful left. Its a waste to sit in combat and not use most of Leliths (essentially) 14 attacks to kill 2 models, so I fall back, and charge the OTHER unit, trusting to someone else to take out those last 2.

I get what your saying but I think you’ve missed the point in why I used that example. I’m using an example that could win a game by taking out obsec troops and how the ability may prove more than just useful for taking out chaff but in clearing the enemy off an objective.

You have simply tried to imagine how to increase her damage output. Which is fine...but she can be useful in a tactical way as well as simply killing stuff.

Ah, no worries DED. I am actually with you on that example. I would totally use her for taking out obsec. I was responding to Sekac's specific example of having to charge both and then all the other fiddly business involved.

In my head, the rule worked in a less fiddly situation. Still a unit of obsecs on a point, supported either by more obsec, or an HQ, specifically if a single squad of troops (probably kabalites) couldnt take out the obsec unit alone. Lelith goes in with a charge on the obsec, fights twice, either bodies them (yay, job done) or nearly does. Next turn, she falls back, the kabalites mop up the last 2 remaining models, and she instantly charges whatever else is on the point.

Yes, she could get dogpiled, but I struggle to believe that they have removed her ability that prevents the enemy from falling back, so that option is out.

So what if she is dogpiled before she can fall back? Well, thats the risk, right? We wanted more risk, more reward, right? Good chance of killing the obsec unit, and attacking whats next, at the risk of getting swarmed. Seems fun to me!

Really liking the Lelith-teaser. It seems to hint at some stuff I’ve been wanting to see, which makes me happy. Namely:

- Using the Command Phase to give our HQs special abilities to help characterize them and expand their use and roles on the battlefield. (Martial/Command-abilities instead of psycic powers?!)
- More attacks for our HQs (But I’m holding out hope that 7 is standard for archons and succubi as well, and that her usual ”more attacks”-rules come from the knives and/or something else.)
- More attention/use of the Command Phase would imply a higher chance that there will be some rule that allows us to make use of those abilities while inside transports. (I’m getting flashbacks to the lead-up to 8ed, when it was revealed that flying units could leave combat and still shoot, implying that wyches (who’s playstyle would be greatly affected by that) would get a rule to counteract that)

Some interesting things I notice:
- Leliths new rules seems to be at their most optimalnfacing low-toughness, good armor save, units. That is to say, exactley what she faces off against in the box. And vice versa, Sisters with their really good mid-high strength shooting and flamers are an exceptionally good counter to wyches. Sounds like a fun (albeit intense) match-up!
- Her Natural Perfection-ability uses a universal rules language (”this model is” rather than ”Lelith is”). People who are more well versed in the other 9ed codexes; is this standard for special character’s rules in this edition? Or does that imply that this is a universal ability that might/will be availible to more models?

albions-angel wrote:

Next turn, she falls back, the kabalites mop up the last 2 remaining models, and she instantly charges whatever else is on the point.

Yes, she could get dogpiled, but I struggle to believe that they have removed her ability that prevents the enemy from falling back, so that option is out.

So what if she is dogpiled before she can fall back? Well, thats the risk, right? We wanted more risk, more reward, right? Good chance of killing the obsec unit, and attacking whats next, at the risk of getting swarmed. Seems fun to me!

Next turn she falls back IF your opponent has not killed her.

She doesn't have a rule "preventing" units from falling back. If she has the rule, she has a chance of preventing them from falling back. So no, the option is not "out".

And no, she does not have a "good" chance of killing obsec units. She has a slim chance. 7 or 8 wounds is average assuming they have no invul save and no FNP.

I understand how you want her to work, but ignoring rules and math will not make her perform the way you wish.

albions-angel wrote:

This has to be something they FAQ. Clearly its too ambiguous. Is she doing it? Or are we just choosing it as some sort of pseudo-faction ability and it applies once she disembarks? That is the key question. And from what we have seen, its not clear (having reread the embark rules, I am closer to saying it doesnt work?), and DOES matter.

Just like D&D. RAW or RAI, and until the creators clarify, sometimes you cant tell which is which.

I actually think it's pretty clear currently - without further rules details - that command abilities do not work while embarked.

I'm going to be very irritated if our 9th Codex makes putting our characters in transports even jankier than 8th did.

The special rules for embarked units in the command phase do indeed need an FAQ.

For me, the effects from the choice you make in the command phase dont actually come in to play until you are out of the transport anyway. So I’m hoping they confirm the choice can still be made in the command phase prior to disembarking in the movement phase. It’s right that we are cautious about these things.

If the rules say you can’t be effected by special rules while embarked then strictly speaking Lelith won’t be buffed by the rules until the movement phase or cc phase at which point she’s out of the transport.

Let’s wait and see.

Maybe someone at GW remembered that we are THE transport faction and we'll get a rule where commanders aren't useless once they're inside their pimp wagon

I mean for crying out loud, even the guard can order from a tank

ursvamp wrote:

Really liking the Lelith-teaser. It seems to hint at some stuff I’ve been wanting to see, which makes me happy. Namely:

- Using the Command Phase to give our HQs special abilities to help characterize them and expand their use and roles on the battlefield. (Martial/Command-abilities instead of psycic powers?!)
- More attacks for our HQs (But I’m holding out hope that 7 is standard for archons and succubi as well, and that her usual ”more attacks”-rules come from the knives and/or something else.)
- More attention/use of the Command Phase would imply a higher chance that there will be some rule that allows us to make use of those abilities while inside transports. (I’m getting flashbacks to the lead-up to 8ed, when it was revealed that flying units could leave combat and still shoot, implying that wyches (who’s playstyle would be greatly affected by that) would get a rule to counteract that)

Some interesting things I notice:
- Leliths new rules seems to be at their most optimalnfacing low-toughness, good armor save, units. That is to say, exactley what she faces off against in the box. And vice versa, Sisters with their really good mid-high strength shooting and flamers are an exceptionally good counter to wyches. Sounds like a fun (albeit intense) match-up!
- Her Natural Perfection-ability uses a universal rules language (”this model is” rather than ”Lelith is”). People who are more well versed in the other 9ed codexes; is this standard for special character’s rules in this edition? Or does that imply that this is a universal ability that might/will be availible to more models?

Didn't realize before how good she counters Sisters, good catch. But I would not be too sure about more command phase abilities. Her old natural perfection worked at the beginning of the round, a lot of beginning at the round or turn effects were moved to the command phase.
For them being general rules, could be, before she chose between the drugs. Maybe we only have two drug effects now? But the word model seems to be most likely a mistake. Units declare charges and fall back, not the models. So it is very likely that in the ability text model needs to be replaced with unit on all occurrences, which also weakens the second effect drastically.

No way. She will fight twice after killing a model. No way a whole unit just to get that ability off. Just no way.

AzraeI wrote:

Maybe someone at GW remembered that we are THE transport faction and we'll get a rule where commanders aren't useless once they're inside their pimp wagon.

Nah.

As for Lelith, everything we've seen about our new codex so far kind of sucks, and here at last is somethng that... well, doesn't suck. She won't be cutting through meringues like she's collecting their panties, but she doesn't look bad at all, and that's a cause for some optimism.

However, there's a caveat. Remember that this Lelith Thunderthighs is a new model, and not a very appealing one at that. It's not too surprising that GW gave her some very attractive rules if their aim is to push the model, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of the army has received the same level of attention. It also doesn't mean that is hasn't, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

I expect the same will happen with Jain Zar and the Howling Banshees. They'll probably get some really good rules, but what use is one really good character and one really good unit if the rest of the army is weak and outdated? It's the trouble when your game is designed to please Marketing, and Marketing is thick as refried beans.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

No way. She will fight twice after killing a model. No way a whole unit just to get that ability off. Just no way.

ummmmm. no one was saying that. Not sure what you're reacting to with this post?

I think whether she gets to use an impaler with be a pretty big point. If she gets a D2 weapon then she is a lot better in this meta.

I'm hopeful she'll keep her other abilities like rerolls against characters and invulnerable save.

I do however, think we might be in for frustration with command phase abilities. I wouldn't be shocked if all our HQs get command phase abilities but they continue to not work from our transports. This would be very annoying obviously. It'd be nice if they added to the open-topped rule to allow auras and command phase abilities to work.

Barking Agatha wrote:

AzraeI wrote:

Maybe someone at GW remembered that we are THE transport faction and we'll get a rule where commanders aren't useless once they're inside their pimp wagon.

Nah.

As for Lelith, everything we've seen about our new codex so far kind of sucks, and here at last is somethng that... well, doesn't suck. She won't be cutting through meringues like she's collecting their panties, but she doesn't look bad at all, and that's a cause for some optimism.

However, there's a caveat. Remember that this Lelith Thunderthighs is a new model, and not a very appealing one at that. It's not too surprising that GW gave her some very attractive rules if their aim is to push the model, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of the army has received the same level of attention. It also doesn't mean that is hasn't, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

I expect the same will happen with Jain Zar and the Howling Banshees. They'll probably get some really good rules, but what use is one really good character and one really good unit if the rest of the army is weak and outdated? It's the trouble when your game is designed to please Marketing, and Marketing is thick as refried beans.

Eh, I get the cynicism, but by all accounts, the codex was mostly finished months ago. And whatever the reaction of the fans, GW wouldnt release a model they themselves didnt like the look of (at the time of the reveal). Its not a compensation. Its the rules they felt fit with the new model aesthetic and lore.

Barking Agatha wrote:

I expect the same will happen with Jain Zar and the Howling Banshees. They'll probably get some really good rules, but what use is one really good character and one really good unit if the rest of the army is weak and outdated? It's the trouble when your game is designed to please Marketing, and Marketing is thick as refried beans.

Jain and Howling Banshees already got new rules in Phoenix Rising, they were just awful. It's a real crapshoot as to whether a new model actually means any care has been paid to the unit's rules.

Koldan wrote:

ursvamp wrote:

Really liking the Lelith-teaser. It seems to hint at some stuff I’ve been wanting to see, which makes me happy. Namely:

- Using the Command Phase to give our HQs special abilities to help characterize them and expand their use and roles on the battlefield. (Martial/Command-abilities instead of psycic powers?!)
- More attacks for our HQs (But I’m holding out hope that 7 is standard for archons and succubi as well, and that her usual ”more attacks”-rules come from the knives and/or something else.)
- More attention/use of the Command Phase would imply a higher chance that there will be some rule that allows us to make use of those abilities while inside transports. (I’m getting flashbacks to the lead-up to 8ed, when it was revealed that flying units could leave combat and still shoot, implying that wyches (who’s playstyle would be greatly affected by that) would get a rule to counteract that)

Some interesting things I notice:
- Leliths new rules seems to be at their most optimalnfacing low-toughness, good armor save, units. That is to say, exactley what she faces off against in the box. And vice versa, Sisters with their really good mid-high strength shooting and flamers are an exceptionally good counter to wyches. Sounds like a fun (albeit intense) match-up!
- Her Natural Perfection-ability uses a universal rules language (”this model is” rather than ”Lelith is”). People who are more well versed in the other 9ed codexes; is this standard for special character’s rules in this edition? Or does that imply that this is a universal ability that might/will be availible to more models?

Didn't realize before how good she counters Sisters, good catch. But I would not be too sure about more command phase abilities. Her old natural perfection worked at the beginning of the round, a lot of beginning at the round or turn effects were moved to the command phase.
For them being general rules, could be, before she chose between the drugs. Maybe we only have two drug effects now? But the word model seems to be most likely a mistake. Units declare charges and fall back, not the models. So it is very likely that in the ability text model needs to be replaced with unit on all occurrences, which also weakens the second effect drastically.

Nah sisters only in that box match up, a normal sisters army can care less about her as they will have a 4++ and a 6+++, or just a 5++/5+++ or will just shoot 30 melta guns across the table and turn 1 or turn 2 charge her and laugh.

Lelith is 1D and no anti Invuls. VH literally won't care about her, even fighting twice. And BA can kill her before she fights twice.

Honestly unless she is as good as Ragnar then she is just bad IMO !!NOTE!!! Until i see our full codex.

She should make character scared to be near her, she should not fight twice, just give her 10+ attacks, re-roll vs infantry and character, and make her 2D always. Why is the dueling master, the arena champion so bad at 1v1 combat? Why does she have to kill something to fight twice and not just murders everything instantly? Sure maybe she gets off on blood spilled but on the battlefield vs a character, i think that will get her off WAY MORE lol.

Usual disclaimer about seeing the rest of her rules/full codex, etc., but her baseline stats are BAD. Like, laughably, insultingly bad. Essentially she has the same offensive output as a squad of Banshees. Yes, Banshees, the terrors of ninth edition, which have singlehandedly propelled our Craftworld cousins to S Tier status. Absolute best case scenario, she’s dishing out 14 power sword attacks. Killing chaff is not really something DE struggle with. What I’ve struggled with in ninth are terminators, Gravis armor in cover, and -1 dmg abilities on infantry and vehicles. Lelith doesn’t help solve any of those problems. And she’s not even a good character hunter as she’ll only fight twice if she kills a model. And seven power sword attacks aren’t killing any semi-tough characters. A Haemonculous with EC or Djin blade Archon are better melee characters... and they’re both terrible melee characters in the grand scheme of ninth edition 40K. For the first time, I’m legit worried about the codex.

Red Corsair wrote:

Guys, don't get me wrong here. I think it's stupid and hope they eventually do address it. But as of now characters inside transports miss out on the command phase.

Hopefully they fix the transports and while doing so at least give raiders a command ability of some sort, but thats just wishful thinking at this point.

Also no need to apologize fellers, the discussion is important because these rules are not easy to interpret much of the time.

If they don't finally fix transports or provide absolutely substantial buffs to Wych Cults, I will stop fielding them entirely. I still liked them in 8th because having a Kabal + Wych batallion that was fluffy, functional and gave a lot of CP. And in 8th you could at least tie up tanks with Wyches, now that is gone too.

I love my Reavers, but I can also field them in a "Wych Cult" Patrol that has Drazhar as HQ and Corsair Skyreavers as troops (I don't play tournaments and I am itching to start my Skyreaver conversions). And at the very least, Drazhar won't die to Bolter spam once the enemy blew up the transport next to my HQ.

Edit: After seeing the preview, I'm not even sure if it's worth getting the pain & piety box. Until now I thought it was a sure buy since I need more Scourges and Venoms. Maybe I should just buy them individually instead (the model isn't exactly a huge turn-on either).

Speaking of her statline, I notice that (at least in terms of base stats) DE haven't gotten any faster.

I guess Lelith herself can at least Advance and still Charge now but given that this is a special rule almost certainly unique to her I doubt we'll be seeing it anywhere else.

Would be nice if we weren't worse than the other eldar factions even at the thing we're supposed to excel at, but I guess that's just asking too much of GW.