Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex

DevilDoll wrote:

Its amazing how even native English speaking persons in here have no idea what the f is going on with realspace raiders ^_^

In my defence, after today and yesterday's work, I am less a native English speaker, and more a native PySpark speaker...

So is the new power from pain chart strictly worse? No more feel no pain? Redundant 6++ that won’t affect Wyches or coven units at all. This improves to a 5++ that again means nothing compared to previous PoF lists that used to see success. Doubling wounds on a wound tracker for... raiders? Another turn of movement and a single bs3 dark lance shot if they manage to even survive that long. Advance and charge is nice but the reliability of our charges goes way down without a free re-roll and with the rest of the codices prioritizing re rollable charges from reserves with modifiers... an advance and charge is only ok.

It is written in a way that may make more sense later. Still a lot unknown, but I'm glad to have this much info.

Don't know about you boys, but I'm thoroughly hyped!

Will be cool to take something other than the old triple patrol. Trying to fit everything into a battalion with all the HQs and Troops will be an interesting challenge, but should be worth it (depending on our WLTs)

Edit: as others have said, were better off with Advance+charge than the rerolls. 10.5" average vs like 8.5" average

rtynd057 wrote:

So is the new power from pain chart strictly worse? No more feel no pain? Redundant 6++ that won’t affect Wyches or coven units at all. This improves to a 5++ that again means nothing compared to previous PoF lists that used to see success. Doubling wounds on a wound tracker for... raiders? Another turn of movement and a single bs3 dark lance shot if they manage to even survive that long. Advance and charge is nice but the reliability of our charges goes way down without a free re-roll and with the rest of the codices prioritizing re rollable charges from reserves with modifiers... an advance and charge is only ok.

You don't know that 6+++ is going away. As I said on the previous page, my hunch is that is going to become a racial special ability built in, as opposed to part of our mono-faction benefit.

DevilDoll wrote:

Its amazing how even native English speaking persons in here have no idea what the f is going on with realspace raiders ^_^

But this is so much better than just saying "Take all the crap you have and go kill stuff"

rtynd057 wrote:

So is the new power from pain chart strictly worse? No more feel no pain? Redundant 6++ that won’t affect Wyches or coven units at all. This improves to a 5++ that again means nothing compared to previous PoF lists that used to see success. Doubling wounds on a wound tracker for... raiders? Another turn of movement and a single bs3 dark lance shot if they manage to even survive that long. Advance and charge is nice but the reliability of our charges goes way down without a free re-roll and with the rest of the codices prioritizing re rollable charges from reserves with modifiers... an advance and charge is only ok.

I don't know about you, but I've definitely been in situations where I've had ravagers that could have greatly benefited from reduced wound penalties in the late-game.

Does this now feel like the re-work that was promised?

Everybody knows I’ve been rather optimistic at the smallest of rules released over the last two weeks so you can imagine how excited I am after reading today’s article.

I’m really interested now to find out what sort of rules the transports have...when can I give GW my money? I want this book!

sekac wrote:

You don't know that 6+++ is going away. As I said on the previous page, my hunch is that is going to become a racial special ability built in, as opposed to part of our mono-faction benefit.

If they planned to do that, they'd have made turn 1 PfP something other than a 6++.

And in the highly-improbable event that they've actually done this, then apparently our niche is being the army with a stupid number of 6+ saves.

krayd wrote:

I don't know about you, but I've definitely been in situations where I've had ravagers that could have greatly benefited from reduced wound penalties in the late-game.

Alas, my smoking craters are rather beyond the help of slightly better BS.

As I said, I fully admit that I was wrong and that this looks really great! Having said that...

I love the ability to change an Archon into an Extra Spicy Archon. Would it have killed them to make it Archon and Dracon? But whatever. It remains to be seen how much is 'a few extra points'.

Trueborn rock. Even without their old 4 blasters in one Venom, they still look really good, and who knows? Maybe we can have more special weapons in small units now. We'll see!

Raiding Forces is pretty much what we already had, but Realspace Raid at last solves the headache of 'I want to bring 3 Ravagers but I also want a Succubus and a Talos, but I can't bring more than 3 detachments, and how the *** am I supposed to solve this puzzle and why? WHY?' Thanks to Realspace Raid building a Drukhari list is almost as simple as building... any other army's list. Huzzah!

One thing though. Do you still get Warlord Traits for the Succubus and Haemonculus? Or is that still a Stratagem? Who knows? It is a mystery.

Serpent's Kiss: With this, the change to the Splinter Cannon just went from 'silly' to 'actually that's pretty good'. Will other obsessions be as good? Will there be an obsession that makes darklight weapons shine? Or one that makes those 2 Attacks on Kabalites make sense? I dunno, but maybe.

I demand that Insidious Misdirection be errata'd to read: 'Under Lady Malys' instructions, use this Stratagem at the start of the first battle round...'

Power from Pain looks like a mixed bag. It seems redundant on Wyches and Wracks, unless those rules have also changed. Which kind of seems likely.

Combat Drugs, yay! I love drugs.

Relics: Pretty good. The Djin Blade is the Djin Blade. The Nightmare Doll is the Nightmare Doll.

I'm still not convinced that it's going to be the bestest codex ever, and I'll be happy when I see Vect, and the Duke, and the Baron, and even Keradruakh and Kruellagh in there, but it definitely looks like they really put some actual work into it this time.

I’d also be very surprised to see a Kabalite with a 4+ 6++ 6+++

I think so many people have been asking for glass hammer that we are now seeing a slight improvement in damage output with a slight decrease in durability.

I guess what’s on all our minds is what’s happening with the Wracks save as they are supposed to be the durable unit...but were they too durable??? At this moment Wracks don’t benefit from either battle round 1 or 4. They went down in points so are they nothing more than fodder?

I’m buzzing about Trueborn...I’m not bothered about loads of special weapons. Always hitting on 2+ Is nice and then add in a Kabal special rule and they could be decent. Also I think I’m going to buy a new 10 man squad and give them a slightly different paint scheme.

Then just to mention we can now have a Archon dishing out 7 attacks dealing flat 3 damage and the chance of fighting twice once per battle. That’s a cool choice to have. If you make a deal with the dice Devil that’s 42 damage...have I got that right???

Ok after reading and rereading the way i understand realspace raiders you can choose one obsession for the whole detachment so lets say you can choose dark technomancers and then even kabal and wych units get the bonus...and if ravagers are core (ok im stretching it too much now) then you get dark technomancer ravagers with reroll ones to hit ^_^
I know all the above is probably bs but can you imagine if that were true lol

DevilDoll wrote:

Ok after reading and rereading the way i understand realspace raiders you can choose one obsession for the whole detachment so lets say you can choose dark technomancers and then even kabal and wych units get the bonus...and if ravagers are core (ok im stretching it too much now) then you get dark technomancer ravagers with reroll ones to hit ^_^
I know all the above is probably bs but can you imagine if that were true lol

My understanding of realspace raiders is a pretty simple one.

If you choose 1 HQ and 1 troop choice from each Kabal/Cult/Coven then you may apply a relevant Kabal/Cult/Coven obsession to the relevant units.

So an example would mean you’d have Poison Tongue Kabalites mixed with Cult of Strife Wyches mixed with Prophets of Flesh Wracks.

If you then added Reavers they gain the cult obsession you had chosen etc etc.

I do hope it’s not the case where you choose a single obsession and it applies to the entire army.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I think so many people have been asking for glass hammer that we are now seeing a slight improvement in damage output with a slight decrease in durability.

I think you'll find most people were saying 'we've got the glass but seem to be missing the hammer'.

As in, we were still a pretty fragile army but our damage output was falling more and more behind.

I can't say I saw many people calling for DE to be even easier to kill.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I think so many people have been asking for glass hammer that we are now seeing a slight improvement in damage output with a slight decrease in durability.

I think you'll find most people were saying 'we've got the glass but seem to be missing the hammer'.

As in, we were still a pretty fragile army but our damage output was falling more and more behind.

I can't say I saw many people calling for DE to be even easier to kill.

I have to disagree. I’ve seen it said in this very topic. Some people didn’t like being able to camp on objectives being hard to kill. They complained we had become more and more durable and that it wasn’t the DE way.

Im not making this up to make my comment valid. I’m simply telling you the posts I’ve read and the conversations I’ve had in this very topic.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

sekac wrote:

You don't know that 6+++ is going away. As I said on the previous page, my hunch is that is going to become a racial special ability built in, as opposed to part of our mono-faction benefit.

If they planned to do that, they'd have made turn 1 PfP something other than a 6++.

And in the highly-improbable event that they've actually done this, then apparently our niche is being the army with a stupid number of 6+ saves.

Your skepticism is noted. As was your certainty that this would be a minor tweak of an edition change.

If I'm right, we would have slightly more 6+ saves than we currently do. If my theory is correct, all vehicles will have 5++ against shooting. All Coven will have 5++/6+++ as they do now (PoF not withstanding). Wyches currently have 6++/6+++ so no change there.

It would be basically non-vehicle kabal units and non-wych, non-vehicle cult units. So warriors, Lhamaeans, Medusae, Ur-Ghul, hellions, beastmasters, and reavers. Situationally, Incubi, if they're targeted by AP 3 or better.

My reasoning:
1) We don't know what our racial special ability is. It isn't PfP, that's the mono-faction thing now. We WILL have something. Resistance to pain is THE signature differentiator between us and other Aeldari races. It makes no sense that we can only resist pain when we have no allies.

2) PfP represents our warriors getting stronger and faster as carnage is wrought. But separately from that, DE don't experience pain like other races. We kinda like it. 6+++ represents that well. It's 1/6 chance to ignore 1 damage attacks, but drops sharply off a cliff as damage increases. We may like pain, but our bodies are still fragile. The 6++ is a chance to dodge attacks before they hit, 6+++ is our resistance to ones that do.

3) It allows vehicles to have an easy rule to put Nightshields right where they are now. +1 to invulnerable saves in the shooting phase.

4) Coven units getting a +1 to invulnerable saves, like vehicles, puts them where they are now, defensively. If there is no army-wide 6+++, then coven would be the most likely place they'd put it. But 6++/6+++ is also awful defense for our tanky stuff. That's wych status. So would 6++/5+++ if they went that route instead. Increasing invulnerable saves makes the most sense, but that would still be a strict downgrade in durability from where they are now, and that doesn't seem realistic.

Basically, the 6++ gives them a jumping off point for units that have additional defensive modifiers (Coven, vehicles), while providing a backup for things whose are is punched too easily (warriors, hellions, reavers). It does nothing to capture our resistance to pain itself.

sekac wrote:

If I'm right, we would have slightly more 6+ saves than we currently do. If my theory is correct, all vehicles will have 5++ against shooting. All Coven will have 5++/6+++ as they do now (PoF not withstanding). Wyches currently have 6++/6+++ so no change there.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to doubt this.

I think you'll find our 6+++ has been removed in its entirity.

Coven will likely get +1 to their invulnerable save, giving them a 5++ but no FNP.

Vehicles... no idea.

Wyches will just lose their 6++ at all times rule.

sekac wrote:

1) We don't know what our racial special ability is. It isn't PfP, that's the mono-faction thing now. We WILL have something.

[Citation needed.]


In the unlikely event that you're correct... ugh. Could they not have put something else on turn 1 for PfP?

I fething hate 6+ saves at the best of times (yes, that includes 6++ saves and even 6+++ saves). They're just time-wasting mechanics. Hence, I can't say I'm overjoyed about the possibility of a 6++/6+++ save on all models.

After reading it again well.... sounds like we are getting a Drukhari obsession as well as our normal kabal, cult and coven obsessions. Perhaps we will have some sort of watered down obsession?

sekac wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

sekac wrote:

You don't know that 6+++ is going away. As I said on the previous page, my hunch is that is going to become a racial special ability built in, as opposed to part of our mono-faction benefit.

If they planned to do that, they'd have made turn 1 PfP something other than a 6++.

And in the highly-improbable event that they've actually done this, then apparently our niche is being the army with a stupid number of 6+ saves.

Your skepticism is noted. As was your certainty that this would be a minor tweak of an edition change.

If I'm right, we would have slightly more 6+ saves than we currently do. If my theory is correct, all vehicles will have 5++ against shooting. All Coven will have 5++/6+++ as they do now (PoF not withstanding). Wyches currently have 6++/6+++ so no change there.

It would be basically non-vehicle kabal units and non-wych, non-vehicle cult units. So warriors, Lhamaeans, Medusae, Ur-Ghul, hellions, beastmasters, and reavers. Situationally, Incubi, if they're targeted by AP 3 or better.

My reasoning:
1) We don't know what our racial special ability is. It isn't PfP, that's the mono-faction thing now. We WILL have something. Resistance to pain is THE signature differentiator between us and other Aeldari races. It makes no sense that we can only resist pain when we have no allies.

2) PfP represents our warriors getting stronger and faster as carnage is wrought. But separately from that, DE don't experience pain like other races. We kinda like it. 6+++ represents that well. It's 1/6 chance to ignore 1 damage attacks, but drops sharply off a cliff as damage increases. We may like pain, but our bodies are still fragile. The 6++ is a chance to dodge attacks before they hit, 6+++ is our resistance to ones that do.

3) It allows vehicles to have an easy rule to put Nightshields right where they are now. +1 to invulnerable saves in the shooting phase.

4) Coven units getting a +1 to invulnerable saves, like vehicles, puts them where they are now, defensively. If there is no army-wide 6+++, then coven would be the most likely place they'd put it. But 6++/6+++ is also awful defense for our tanky stuff. That's wych status. So would 6++/5+++ if they went that route instead. Increasing invulnerable saves makes the most sense, but that would still be a strict downgrade in durability from where they are now, and that doesn't seem realistic.

Basically, the 6++ gives them a jumping off point for units that have additional defensive modifiers (Coven, vehicles), while providing a backup for things whose are is punched too easily (warriors, hellions, reavers). It does nothing to capture our resistance to pain itself.

I’m not sold. Does that mean you’d expect vehicles to have a 4+ invulnerable save by battle round 4?

I actually think we are being made less durable.

I love your impression of pfp pain and I agree, we should be able to withstand the minor damage but fold from major damage...but they have actually made it go the other way. The benefit to a Kabalite of swapping 6+++ for 6++ is that now we have a better chance of surviving high damage weapons than before but a lower chance of surviving mass low damage weapons. The 4+ save does mitigate this somewhat mind.

Subsanity wrote:

After reading it again well.... sounds like we are getting a Drukhari obsession as well as our normal kabal, cult and coven obsessions. Perhaps we will have some sort of watered down obsession?

Worth pointing out that the wording used in the rules posted today matches the wording used in the 8th book about our current Obsessions - they're all referred to as "Drukhari Obsessions". I don't think it's likely we're getting any generic detachment bonuses, although I'd love to be wrong.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I’m not sold. Does that mean you’d expect vehicles to have a 4+ invulnerable save by battle round 4?

I actually think we are being made less durable.

I love your impression of pfp pain and I agree, we should be able to withstand the minor damage but fold from major damage...but they have actually made it go the other way. The benefit to a Kabalite of swapping 6+++ for 6++ is that now we have a better chance of surviving high damage weapons than before but a lower chance of surviving mass low damage weapons. The 4+ save does mitigate this somewhat mind.

The idea that GW looked at the army and decided we're too tough just doesn't seem realistic to me.

Having turn 1 PfP going from "somewhat useful" as it currently is, to "absolutely useless" in many cases, also doesn't seem realistic. Giving kabalite warriors, for instance +1 armor save and a 6++, will often be completely redundant.

Giving the whole army the 6++ that wyches have from their heightened reflexes makes sense. Removing our signature racial ability does not.

sekac wrote:

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I’m not sold. Does that mean you’d expect vehicles to have a 4+ invulnerable save by battle round 4?

I actually think we are being made less durable.

I love your impression of pfp pain and I agree, we should be able to withstand the minor damage but fold from major damage...but they have actually made it go the other way. The benefit to a Kabalite of swapping 6+++ for 6++ is that now we have a better chance of surviving high damage weapons than before but a lower chance of surviving mass low damage weapons. The 4+ save does mitigate this somewhat mind.

The idea that GW looked at the army and decided we're too tough just doesn't seem realistic to me.

Having turn 1 PfP going from "somewhat useful" as it currently is, to "absolutely useless" in many cases, also doesn't seem realistic.  Giving kabalite warriors, for instance +1 armor save and a 6++, will often be completely redundant.

Giving the whole army the 6++ that wyches have from their heightened reflexes makes sense. Removing our signature racial ability does not.

Well I can only go on what we’ve all seen so far today. We have lost the 6+++ and gained a 6++.

Who’s to say they haven’t just slightly turned things around. Perhaps Wracks will now have no save at all. Maybe they get the 6++ from pfp and an ignore wounds on 5+ ability.

Sometimes these changes feel like they have a bigger impact than we realise. I’d like to see how many Bolter hits it takes to kill 10 Kabalites when comparing 8th to 9th.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I guess what’s on all our minds is what’s happening with the Wracks save as they are supposed to be the durable unit...but were they too durable??? At this moment Wracks don’t benefit from either battle round 1 or 4. They went down in points so are they nothing more than fodder?

Unfortunately I worry that GW, or at least whoever is writing some of the WarCom articles, might think that Wracks are effectively zombies thanks to the "unleash shambling hordes of Wracks" line at the end of "The Best Drukhari Codex Ever" article.

Ubernoob1 wrote:

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I guess what’s on all our minds is what’s happening with the Wracks save as they are supposed to be the durable unit...but were they too durable??? At this moment Wracks don’t benefit from either battle round 1 or 4. They went down in points so are they nothing more than fodder?

Unfortunately I worry that GW, or at least whoever is writing some of the WarCom articles, might think that Wracks are effectively zombies thanks to the "unleash shambling hordes of Wracks" line at the end of "The Best Drukhari Codex Ever" article.

I wonder then what the Trueborn version of Wracks will be like. Either way I can’t wait to find out all the other details.

Regarding the PfP/FNP debate, all I can say is that I really hope a lot of units haven't lost their existing invulnerable saves.

Before, losing PfP would have been an inconvenience.

However, if it's basically the only thing providing invulnerable saves for our units now, then we're basically locked from ever allying.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

sekac wrote:

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I’m not sold. Does that mean you’d expect vehicles to have a 4+ invulnerable save by battle round 4?

I actually think we are being made less durable.

I love your impression of pfp pain and I agree, we should be able to withstand the minor damage but fold from major damage...but they have actually made it go the other way. The benefit to a Kabalite of swapping 6+++ for 6++ is that now we have a better chance of surviving high damage weapons than before but a lower chance of surviving mass low damage weapons. The 4+ save does mitigate this somewhat mind.

The idea that GW looked at the army and decided we're too tough just doesn't seem realistic to me.

Having turn 1 PfP going from "somewhat useful" as it currently is, to "absolutely useless" in many cases, also doesn't seem realistic.  Giving kabalite warriors, for instance +1 armor save and a 6++, will often be completely redundant.

Giving the whole army the 6++ that wyches have from their heightened reflexes makes sense. Removing our signature racial ability does not.

Well I can only go on what we’ve all seen so far today. We have lost the 6+++ and gained a 6++.

Who’s to say they haven’t just slightly turned things around. Perhaps Wracks will now have no save at all. Maybe they get the 6++ from pfp and an ignore wounds on 5+ ability.

Sometimes these changes feel like they have a bigger impact than we realise. I’d like to see how many Bolter hits it takes to kill 10 Kabalites when comparing 8th to 9th.

Of course we can only go on what we see. That's why I used words like hunch, speculation, and theory. But we can also assume we will have a racial special ability just like every other army in the game.

9th seems to be moving towards one rule as the game progresses, provided all units are mono-faction (Combat Doctrines, Contagions, Command Protocols, PfP). And all armies have built in racial abilities (Bolter Discipline/Shock Assault, Disgustingly Resilient, Reanimation Protocols, ???).

So why would you assume they've decided to deviate from that pattern, simply because they haven't revealed what our ability is yet?

I think it's a given that we will have a racial ability. Our ability to resist pain is our signature element that makes us distinct from other Aeldari.